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mark54

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Everything posted by mark54

  1. Am I missing something here? There are no Mk2b's in this photo. The BSO is a Mk2c (there being no Mk2b BSO's)
  2. According to the "British Railways Lettering and Numbering of Coaching Stock" they were labelled BUFFET RESTAURANT CAR. David Faulkner's PDF states you were the source of the original document.
  3. The formation of the 1968 non-stop was: BSK (CW) FO (CW) FO (BR1) RK (B5) TSO (BR1) TSO (CW) RMB (CW) It appears to be ER stock except the Kitchen Car must be an LMR one as the ER didn't have any with B5 bogies. The FO with CW bogies is one of the 1956 batch E3076-80 with trial bogies.
  4. Phil, the other thing you should be aware of is that The Hadrian Bar was converted from a Third Class car whereas the Hornby car is a model of a first class car conversion, therefore there are differences in the window layout. Also internally the toilet is on the side, there is no coupe and it has 2+1 seating. Robert Carroll's photo shows the corridor side in green livery. https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/28912968487/in/album-72157603653607671/
  5. To add to your comments, if they were completed in 9/50, that is 3 months before the issue of a lot number and 6 months before early production Mk1’s were displayed by the RE at Marylebone. I can no mention of them in the Parkin Supplement Carriage Standards Committee minutes before that date, only S15000 & M34000. It would be interesting to know where Longworth got the information from? With regard to M34095, in the Ian Allan ABC British Railways Coaches 1958 & 1962 booklets, it is described as a prototype built for experimental use. So it may not have even been a fully completed vehicle or allocated a number. It may have been built for testing purposes only. If it didn’t have a service number, no one would have noted it. Once it’s experimental use was over in 1952, it may have then been sent to Wolverton to be completed as a service BSK. 1952 was the time of steel shortages and the building program was severely curtailed. There was probably pressure to make as much use as possible of what already existed and to keep the workshops and workers in employment. In the same way the demonstrator S15000 was converted to a service CK in 1952. Of course, this is all speculation. Hopefully more information will be uncovered that answers the gaps in what is known about the prototypes.
  6. So if I am understanding you right, you are saying there were 3 prototypes - BTK, CK & TK (presumably M24000)? This is the first time I've seen this mentioned anywhere that a TK was amongst the Mk1 prototypes. Do you have anything to support this?
  7. I would think the reason an LMS lot number was used for the prototype was that the first BR lot numbers weren't issued until 12/50. Bob Reid of this parish has previously sent me a list of early Mk1 wiring drawings he has access to. I hope he doesn't mind me copying the list here. As you can see there are 2 other LMS lot numbers mentioned. The Type A etc was an early form of classification - see Parkin appendix 2a. Drg SC/DE/44853 Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Corridor First Type 'A' (17/4/50) Drg SC/DE/44854 Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Corridor Composite Type 'B' - Lot No.1627 (12/4/50) Drg SC/DE/44855 Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Corridor Brake Third Type 'E' - Lot No.1626 & 1630 (22/4/50) Drg SC/DE/44856 Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Open Cars Types 'G' & 'H' (12/6/50) Drg SC/DE/44858 Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Open Cars Types 'J' & 'K' (7/7/50) Drg SC/DE/44860 Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Corridor Third Type 'C' (23/6/50) Drg SC/DE/44861 Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - Corridor Brake Composite Type 'D' (28/4/50) Drg SC/DE/44909 Standard Coach - Wiring Diagram - 58ft Brake Van (5/7/50)
  8. To answer your question, I don't think M34000 was the experimental vehicle built under LMS lot 1626. My best guess is that it was an incomplete vehicle not intended for service. However when it's experimental use was over, it was not wasted but used to make a production BTK in 1952 (M34095). Likewise S15000 was built as a demonstrator with both open seating and compartments and never entered service as such. It was rebuilt into something more like a more standard CK in 1952 but retained uneven compartment widths. There is evidence that LMS lots 1627 and 1630 were attributed to Mk1 CK & BTK respectively.
  9. The Cravens prototypes also didn't have a continuous body-side curve, but were flattened around the window area.
  10. Hi Tony, I think that might be approaching the old Stevenage station and the bridge in the background would be the Stevenage Bypass then under construction, and now part of the A1(M).
  11. 1E05 with a BG behind the loco is the Sunday 10:00 Edinburgh-KX (The Monday to Saturday Flying Scotsman had a BFK). Prior to 6th May 1974 the equivalent 1E05 09:40 Edinburgh-KX would have been Mk1 stock (except for 1st July to 19th Aug 1973). With the TOPS number that narrows it down to Sunday 12th May to 2nd June 1974.
  12. Robert Carroll (Robertcwp) has come to my rescue for a maroon Diagram 31. The book is On Scottish Lines by Derek Penney - Page 75 at Carmont.
  13. I don't know where Longworth got his Diagram 31 introduction dates but the following is in The May 1966 Railway Observer in the Coaching Stock section: "Conversions: SC1103/4/5 (Griddle RB) formely W301/2/5 (order unknown) rebuilt Wolverton 1966 from RF"
  14. The diagram 31 Griddle cars were introduced in 1966 and there is a photo in one of the photo books (can't think where at the moment) of one in maroon livery and retaining it's heavy duty BR bogies. By 01/01/1969 all were in blue/grey livery and had their original bogies replaced by B5 ones.
  15. A couple of comments: The 8 coaches with a triple dining set was almost certainly part of the Heart of Midlothian – 14:00 KX-Edinburgh. A quick google of 18th Dec 1956 indicates it was a Tuesday. Looking at the ECML winter 1956 carriage workings, the formation leaving KX should have been BSO, CK, SK, SK, SK, RSO, RK, RFO, FK, BG, CK, BSO, the last 2 coaches were detached at Newcastle. Possibly some of the CK & BSO quoted completed the train. E21746E was an ex-NER buffet car conversion. Steve Banks website has photos confirming that it was in brown livery at that time. A bit odd with 2 buffet cars if it was one set. It is unlikely to be a Cambridge Buffet Express set as these would have had some Mk1 stock in by 1956 and the usual buffet cars were either a Tourist Car or an ex-GN conversion.
  16. As it is under the 90MPH lettering, I could guess it stands for Special Maintenance.
  17. Phil, there is some interior film of the bar area and standing area in this Pathe film, that may be useful. It is the last feature. You can also view as stills which is useful. https://www.britishpathe.com/video/railway-rolling-stock-exhibition-at-marylebone/query/railway+stock
  18. Phil, Looking at the 1970 fleet list, anything not marked AB you can take to be VB. All the LMR's are DH but the ER has some VB SH and the WR one VB SH in 1553 and two VB DH in 1552 & 1500, the latter erroneously not listed. The roof vents positions in your model photo don't look quite right, probably because of the off-centre perspective of the roof in Robert's photo. The 2 dome-ridge vents (one is a scallop dome replacement in Robert's photo) at the bar end should be on the roof centre line as should the circular one near the centre of the coach and the 2 ridge-dome ones over the pantry and staff compartment. The bent over pipes are tank breathers.
  19. Phil, as far as I know there were no dual braked RKB. Most had received air brakes by the mid-70s, although a few retained vacuum brakes. Another complication is that the air braked ones seemed to lose the triangular brackets together with their vacuum brakes. The shorter brake cross shaft subsequently only went across the trussing. I also hate to point out that there is an error in that SP etch. The 2 windows on the corridor side adjacent to the bar should be full size, not 3/4 size. You could try and increase the size by careful filing. This John Dedman photo illustrates both these points. https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/48742357262/in/photolist-2km17Xi-edt8bA-fz961W-e7Z3A9-bixhAi-2jDexEW-aqj21n-jiMcBM-2hgcjE3-TZDtmk-dt2ARL-27ziCe3-Av5AQ1-GEgT86-FJJz3L-FJJQ6m-9SMzfd-XhXTqE-nQxoEv-26tKeo1-sDvwkg-nXK442-oyno4v-y18DP7-FyxpJU-Y1AYHr-p8rK1u-yzJACp-oSZqam-2gbecPD-2gbecRY-y1fvjr-vPGbLG-2efMdRo-RspW6g-sAJNCC For roof retail this Robert Carroll photo is useful https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4838977272/in/album-72157603653607671/
  20. I think you are referring to one on the Science and Society site - 2 Mk1 FO's and an LMS BFK furthest away. It has also appeared in Steam World magazine a few years ago. I would have said this and the one in your photo must be a porthole as the pre-war BFK didn't have an intermediate corridor door.
  21. The door that Brian refers to was built with a dual use function. The prototype Mk1 RB had been built with 2 external doors – one for passenger use and one for staff. The design with a transverse bar allowed space for 2 doors. On the production Mk1 RB the bar was changed to be longitudinal and there was no longer space for 2 doors. Instead, there was a single door with a small lobby behind leading to an internal roller shutter door to separate if from the bar. When they were refurbished and re-coded RBR from 1976 onwards, the lobby was removed and the space became part of the bar area. The external door was now for staff use only and marked with a Kitchen label and the door glass painted body colour.
  22. J2968 at Essendine in July 72, from the formation, was the 09:25 from Leeds-KX. In addition to the 8 coaches seen, there should have been a 3 coach 08:50 Halifax portion on the end - TSO, CK, BSO. C1004 - I presume on the same day and from the consist, was the Friday 09:05 Newcastle-KX the Tees-Type Pullman (only 4 Pullmans rather than 5 Mon-Thurs plus a 5th TSO - which you can just make out in the photo it is Mk2a to add to the usual 4 Mk2d TSOs). The Mk1 catering vehicle is Griddle Car RG E1102 which was used as a 1st class bar and 2nd class buffet.
  23. The buffet car at Sheffield Midland is diagram 275 E9195E which in rebuilt form looked very similar to a standard diagram 167 car.
  24. All M to E vehicles will be listed, but not in a list together. E3499M is listed as extant 09/54 to 11/61 with the previous number of the vehicle 5496 most recently, and 7019. Noted as motor fitted. Under M5496M it notes renumbered M3499M in 09/54. I presume the renumbering was when it was motor fitted and also when it was transferred but it is not entirely clear. Not sure this helps you!
  25. The books are basically a list of coaching stock against which introduction/withdrawal dates and known regional transfers are annotated. Eastern & North Eastern coaching stock was not separately identified (E prefix) except for a short period in the mid-60's when there was a NE prefix too.
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