Dave0-6-0

I think I see. I need to find a place for the PL-10e's below the baseboard using PL-9s, away from the supports and in places I can get at but opposite the points levers. I run the 10e pins through the board to the PL-12s above and use extension arms to get to the point levers. I couldn't figure out how they can run under the track and yet get over the motor arm lever pin but I now see from a photo that the extension arms have Z shape pieces at the ends to go over the pin, if I understand them correctly. Or alternatively I could just put a PL-10 above the board at the side somewhere, connecting to the PL-12 and run the arms from there. I have a spare PL-10e and PL-9 so will get a PL-12 plus extension and give it a try. Thanks, Suzy.

Thanks. Had a quick look at the PL-12 website. It talks about using it with a PL-10 for surface mounting. Is that what you were thinking of rather than PL-11s or GM20s? I have a six-lane sidings and would need to get extended arms to a lot of the 12 points.

Note your point about using surace motors. I've been using Suzie's method to wire medium radius electrofrogs but I have a few places where I cannot get access for motors below the boards due to bracing or access issues. I have tested using the surface mounted PL-11 and Gaugemaster PM20 but there is another issue. Crossovers using heel-to-heel of the medium electrofrogs give approximately 50mm centres . But if you have multiple lines like a I do in my sidings, all with 50mm centres, there is insufficient space between the lines for the surface motors. There is just about enough space if one trims some track sleepers but the motor arm does not move freely and sometimes fails. At the moment, I'm considering putting a piece of flexitrack between the heels but it needs to be about the length of a Peco ST-202 and it kind of spoils the sidings spacing effect, not to mention I'm limited on the total width of the sidings. Anyone had this problem and a neat solution?

The way I did it with the ones I'd bought was to remove the screw and top plate altogether, curl the stranded wire around the hole on the bottom plate, making sure it was outside the hole where the screw would go. I would then screw down the top plate trying to make sure I avoided any of the strands with the screw. Since I can't actually see beneath the top plate once I start putting it on, I guess I can't be sure I've not moved the wire a little bit and got the odd strand caught by the screw. I'll try the ones you suggest and see if that works better. I guess one can never have too many terminal blocks anyway! Your ones also look like they might cut nicely into 2x2s which would be good for doing the bus with droppers coming off. Thanks for your help. Dave

Thanks, Andy. I bought some of the attached image type a few weeks ago. They have a little metal plate round the screw so the wire gets pushed between the plate and a metal base, kind of wrapping round the screw. I guess this is the kind of the thing you mean in your message. It also comes with a handy comb-type structure to save looping the feed which saves a bit of work. Re the cable, sounds like 16/0.2 should be fine from what you say. For the on/off isolating switches I may well just run separate cables back to the switch panel which will mean less total run length anyway (I'm not sure there's a simpler way to keep the switches separate anyway).Thanks. Dave

One final question. I’m planning to run a DC bus alongside the sidings (and separately to the main line), with droppers to rails, isolation switches etc. I’ll probably use little 2x2 terminator block cut-offs to continue on the bus whilst droppers come off. Does anyone know if I will get a significant voltage drop as I go on? The sidings aren't that big, 12 feet long by 1- 1.5 feet wide. I suspect the droppers will be in parallel with the circuit (?) but the bus may effectively be in series with a voltage drop? I was thinking of using 16/0.2 wire for the bus. Dave

ejsstubbs: Sorry – it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek – I wasn’t meaning to be harsh! In fact I fully intend to use the Suzie plan and I think it’s a really simple and clever idea, avoiding the need to rip stuff up. I will then be able to see if that is sufficient for smooth slow running with careful and regular points cleaning and voltage care. If nothing else, it will certainly train me to maintain the system like that even if I then go over to full switching. John ks: Thanks for the clarification on the looping. Understood. I’ll now get on with putting everything together as suggested (though I’ll do a few on my test bench first just to get used to it and practice my soldering a bit more). I got a voltmeter recently, so no excuses for me now.

Kevin, "....simulate the original Peco configuration as supplied in the box, means that reliability is no worse." Love it - I think that translates with the Oxford English Dictionary to "the plan works really well, ultimately gives the same rubbish outcome everyone's been trying to avoid from the out-the-box electrofrogs, but now he doesn't have to rip everything up when he finally decides that for himself" !!!! And I guess everything's relative - you should see the performance I'm currently getting from Insulfrog points in my slow shunting sidings, even trying to keep them scrupulously clean and well wired. Actually, come to think of it, you're probably best not seeing it.... Dave

Thanks, Johnks. The diagrams are excellent and say in a very shorthand way what I was trying to say in my lengthy paragraphs. I fully understand the lower diagram. On the upper diagram, can I just doublecheck what’s happening on the left-hand side of the terminal block. I assume top left of the TB (strip 1) is a wire soldered to the solid frog wire. Bottom left of the TB strip 1: can I just check that there are actually two wires connected to the one screw area, one +ve and one -ve with each one going to the appropriate place at the bottom of strips 4 and 5 of the block? Normally that would give me the shivers but I guess only one wire can ever be live depending on the point direction. Also, I assume that if this is what the diagram means, whatever polarity is live from the active switch blade will feed back through this system to the open switch blade but that won't matter as we've snipped the connector further downstream? Regards, Dave

Haha. Thanks for your input everyone. Just when I told Suzie I thought I’d got it! My plan had been to proceed as follows: a. Cut the closure gap to isolate the frog. Do not wire the switch rails directly to the stock rails but instead take dropper wires down below (one +ve, one -ve). Feed these separately to terminals on a terminal block. Connect the other side of the block to two wires going to the solid unfolded frog wire. As the blades move they simultaneously power the frog and switch it’s polarity. I’m no better off than out-the-box but it’s an interim step to avoid tearing everything up if/when I decide I’m not happy with any stuttering/stalling while slow running my 0-6-0s over the points in the sidings. b. If/when I decide to go the full way, I reverse the power direction on the droppers. I can either connect them to the stock rails underboard or I can run power directly from the controller, one +ve, one -ve to the droppers This then feeds the switch blades area directly, no longer relying on good contact with the stock rails, and without having to tear up everything to wire the closure rails to the stock rails with wire directly. The frog is then powered and its polarity switched via a standard add-on switch to the PL-10e or something like the GM500 if I have to do it above board using something like the Peco PL-11 or Gaugemaster PM20. I hope this makes sense but I may well have missed the point (excuse the pun). Funnily enough, even if I've got this right, I still feel it a bit odd in part (a) to solder two separate wires to the solid frog dropper, one to the +ve and one to the -ve contact on the terminal block. I know that only one can be live according to which way the point is set, but it somehow doesn’t feel right and maybe there’s a better method? By the way, I suspect everyone thinks I should stop messing about and just go the whole hog and do the full conversion straight away - I’ll think about that!! Regards, Dave

Replied to this earlier but it doesn't seem to have taken. Suzie: yes I finally got there! Thanks. Andy: multimeter - yes, indeed. I bought one recently - better late than never! Pete/Kevin/Crosland: Thanks for your feedback. I stand corrected. Best practice seems to be the same for DCC and DC - wire everything! I would say the only difference is that DCC folks appear to have little choice - a small problem with the switch blade contact and the whole system can trip, whereas some DC folks think they can mostly get through it with fastidiously cleaning of the switch rails and contacts. Suzie and the others were simply giving me a way to easily recover without disassembling everything if I eventually turn out dissatisfied with jerky running or cut-outs over the points even trying my best to maintain the blades. In fact, I suspect they think I will end up going the best practice way in the end but are too nice to say so and will let me discover the truth for myself! Regards, David

AndyID: thanks - you are telling me the same as Suzie - I'm just slow to get there! DavidCBroad - thanks for the background perspective and diagram. Adds to my understanding of the issues. This is a complicated subject until the penny starts to drop. I think I'm going to put a few of these together on my test bench area before I mess up the actual layout!

Thanks, Suzie. (1) Understood. (2) Can I just see if I've fully understood your point (2). When doing the full DCC conversion, I think two connecting wires are soldered between the stock and switch rails at the four bare metal strips just before the snipping area. This then gives +ve and -ve feed to the switch rails from the stock rails but only as far as the snipping area, so not into the frog. For your process on DC, we don't do that. Instead we just attach drop wires to each of the two middle metal bars, and attach them both to the frog wire (say via a terminal block). When one of the drop wires is active by the direction of the point, it then energises and controls the polarity of the frog. What I meant by "non-moving part" of the switch rail, was this area - where the drop wires now are - I don't know what this area of the point is called but it's at the far end of the moving part of the switch blades but before you get to the snipped area and the frog! Sorry! (3) Understood: After your process I can then choose to fit the frog switch underneath later if I find the blade contact isn't good enough. Actually, someone told me today that in areas where I can't get underneath for point motors, I can use the Guagemaster PM20 surface motor with a GM500 relay as a switch anywhere I want to put it! But a bit pricey for the number of points I'm going to have in the sidings! Thnaks for all your feedback. Dave

Thanks for your replies. It's really good to get feedback. Can I just follow up to be absolutely clear! 1. When you say " You connect three droppers together. One from the frog and the two from the switch rails" you literally mean solder an extension from the frog dropper and the two switch rail droppers all together (or perhaps connect them via a block terminal to make an easier job)? One of the switch rails will be +ve and one -ve but I guess I can connect them together as only one will ever be live (when the rail is switched in that direction)? I guess this then passes the power down to the frog and the correct polarity will come with it? 2. When you say "from the switch rails" I'm guessing you mean from the non-moving part (where the droppers come down from the exposed metal parts) just before the snipping area? And not from the moving parts! 3. Stupid question coming up: After I've done all this, doesn't this take me full circle back to relying on good clean contact between the switch rails and the stock rails (in this case to energise the frog and indeed change its polarity) which is what I thought this process was designed to avoid? Or have I missed the point (again)! Dave

Hi. I'm a newbie in the process of switching over from Peco Insulfrog points to Electrofrogs. I'm DC, not DCC, but I mainly model shunting in goods yards using a mixture of old and new 0-6-0 locos, so I'm simply trying to improve slow speed running over Medium points. I've tried to read through a lot of the stuff and am aware I could just leave the Electrofrogs as out-the-box but this will rely on good contact between the stock and switch rails. I understood some of Suzie's article posted on April 14, 2016, saying: "If you want to future proof without committing, cut the links under the point and add two dropper wires connected to the switch rails as well as two wires connected to the stock rails. With the frog dropper these are the only five wires you require, and in the mean time you can just wire the two switch rail droppers to the frog dropper and not need a switch, if things prove to be unreliable it is easy to rewire with a frog switch under the baseboard without disrupting anything." But I don't understand the bit "in the mean time you can just wire the two switch rail droppers to the frog dropper and not need a switch". If I just do the cutting and dropper wires in the first part of the quote, I think there will be no power to the frog at all (?), so somehow I need to get power to the frog, and it needs to switch between red and black according to points direction. How will attaching the solid frog wire dropper work if it's attached to both the red and black switch rail droppers at the same time? I'm not actually sure what the fixed wire is attached to already on the point and I think there are two of these solid wore droppers? I know I could solve the problem by switching polarity using something like the PECO PL-10e switch attachment, but for various reasons I'm going to have to use surface point motors in a lot of places, and stuff like the Peco PL-11 won't do that (not sure about the Gaugemaster PM-20?). Grateful any help for a newbie! Dave