4608
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Posts posted by 4608
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Private owner wagons are an attractive and tempting addition to model railway layouts. For those of us who like to get the right wagons for our chosen location and time period some research can sometimes show us appropriate companies behind a locomotive or in yards, but rarely in enough detail to model accurately. Thereafter better photos have to be tracked down and the excellent Private Owner Wagons & Tankers Index compiled by Joe Greaves (https://lightmoor.co.uk/BDLpdf_files/Private_Owner_Wagons_Index.pdf) can get us started. But even then, finding a photograph that gives enough detail, shows a wagon that can be modeled from available kits without major surgery to change the number of planks/plank sizes, and then find transfers that are appropriate, can be frustrating. So, the reason for starting this thread. I would like to encourage modelers to post pictures of completed accurate models with a description of the source photo, kit, and transfers etc. I will start the ball rolling with a selection below that I believe are appropriate for the south end of the ECML in the 1930s. Please continue this thread with your models and the same information as I have provided so others can benefit from your research. As a final point, note that POWsides and Precision Decals offer services for a fee to provide transfers for you from suitable reference photographs if transfers are the one item lacking (I have no connection with them other than as a satisfied customer).
Company: Brentnall & Cleland (3005)
Builder: Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Company
Time Period / Date: 1932
Location / Area: ECML London
Planks & Doors: 7 plank, side & end door
Photo Source: Keith Turton, PO Wagons, 1st Collection, p. 36
Model Kit: Slaters 4060
Transfers: POWsides 592
Company: Brentnall & Cleland (3020)
Builder: Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Company
Time Period / Date: 1932
Location / Area: ECML London
Planks & Doors: 7 plank, side & end door
Photo Source: Keith Turton, PO Wagons, 1st Collection, p. 36
Model Kit: Parkside Models PC69
Transfers: POWsides 592
Company: Barber Walker & Co (H3576)
Builder: Not known
Time Period / Date: 1930s (built 1918)
Location / Area: ECML, London to Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 8 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Hudson, PO Wagons Vol 1, Plate 25
Model Kit: Parkside Models PC71
Transfers: POWsides 7
Company: Birley (662)
Builder: Charles Roberts & Co
Time Period / Date: 1930s
Location / Area: ECML London to Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 8 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Keith Turton, PO Wagons, 1st Collection, p. 96
Model Kit: Parkside Models PC71
Transfers: POWsides 415
Company: E Foster & Co (2194)
Builder: Charles Roberts & Co
Time Period / Date: 1930s
Location / Area: ECML London
Planks & Doors: 8 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Hudson Vol 1, pl 80 & HMRS ACK316 close
Model Kit: Parkside PC71
Transfers: POWsides 697
Company: Ricketts (4028)
Builder: Charles Roberts & Co
Time Period / Date: 1930s
Location / Area: ECML London
Planks & Doors: 7 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Hudson, PO Wagons, Vol 1, plate 86, Possibly 87 too
Model Kit: Slaters 4061
Transfers: POWsides 66
Company: Stephenson Clarke (7836)
Builder: Charles Roberts & Co
Time Period / Date: 1930s
Location / Area: Widespread
Planks & Doors: 8 plank side & end doors
Photo Source: Hudson, PO Wagons Vol 1, plate 91
Model Kit: Parkside PC71
Transfers: POWsides 46
Company: Stephenson Clarke (8014)
Builder: Charles Roberts & Co
Time Period / Date: 1930s
Location / Area: Widespread
Planks & Doors: 7 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Hayes, 4 mm Coal Wagon p.50
Model Kit: Slaters 4061
Transfers: POWsides 46 in part
Company: J R Wood & Co Ltd (346)
Builder: Not known
Time Period / Date: Mid-1930s
Location / Area: ECML London to Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 7 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Hayes, 4 mm Coal Wagon p.8
Model Kit: Slaters 4061
Transfers: POWsides 242
Company: J R Wood & Co Ltd (352)
Builder: Not known
Time Period / Date: Late 1930s (Hence darker colour)
Location / Area: ECML London to Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 7 plank side & end door
Photo Source: Hayes, 4 mm Coal Wagon p. 8
Model Kit: Slaters 4061
Transfers: POWsides 242
Company: J R Wood & Co Ltd (1424)
Builder: Derbyshire Carriage & Wagon Co
Time Period / Date: Mid-1930s
Location / Area: ECML London to Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 7 plank side door
Photo Source: Turton, 1st Collection, p. 115
Model Kit: Slaters 4060
Transfers: POWsides 266
Company: J R Wood & Co Ltd (1416)
Builder: Not known
Time Period / Date: Mid-1930s
Location / Area: ECML London to Kings Cross
Planks & Doors: 7 plank side door
Photo Source: Turton, 1st Collection, p. 115
Model Kit: Parkside PC73
Transfers: POWsides 266
As a note to this set of photos, the builder’s plates, repair plates and registration plates were commissioned by me from John Peck of Precision Decals and pictured on his Instagram pages for anyone who wishes to take advantage of these. Best print is white over black. Again, I have no relation with him other than as a satisfied customer.
I look forward to seeing additions to this thread. Can we please keep posts to providing the information below and an accompanying photo?
Company:
Builder:
Time Period / Date:
Location / Area:
Planks & Doors:
Photo Source:
Model Kit:
Transfers:
Build comments, additional parts etc:
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Wouldn't you know it. You build one because there is no ready to run model available and about 40 years later one is in the pipeline. This is a Nu-cast with scratch built chassis.
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Very many thanks. Appreciated.
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I understand that the various windows in carriages were referred to as lights. I have not been able to find a complete description of the terms for all types of windows so I hope that the expertise on this forum can help. I attach some part drawings of LNER carriages to assist here. I believe that the terminology includes:
- Droplights (A?)
- Sidelights (B?)
- Toplights (E?) (as on Great Northern quad arts)
But what were the names of the corridor side windows (C), the ventilators above (D). What were quarterlights?
Were there any other window types I have not referenced?
Excuse my ignorance. Any help here appreciated. Thanks all.
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CORRECTION: Please discard the previous versions. I knew that there would be errors but as I reviewed them, I found an embarrassing number. Hence, I have redone these and double checked for differences. If there are errors now, it’s because I made the same error twice. Hopefully not. On the plus side there is more information now included. Apologies.
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This research, mostly from Michael Harris’s books, attempts to list and describe LNER Gresley built coaches for 1923-39 in diagram number order with year of build and numbers allocated to each area. The other file lists by type, year of build, initial allocations and as structured in the prestige services (Flying Scotsman, Silver Jubilee, Coronation, West Riding, East Anglian). Additionally, appropriate Isinglass drawings and Kirk and Comet Models are referenced. This takes Harris’s (1998) listing up to 1939 and should be of use to anyone wishing to reference the diagrams or know what carriages could have been allotted to their area of interest although, of course, further research would be required to fine tune this information. It shows which diagrams are right for ECJS, North Eastern, Southern Scotland, Great Northern, Great Central, Great Eastern and North Scotland Areas. However, it must be remembered that even in 1939 half of the stock in use was pre-grouping in origin. I have no doubt that there will be some errors in this listing and happy to have them pointed out.
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Hope this approach is useful for others.
I took a chance on the position of the end roof ventilators, water filler cap and handrails on this coach. Like DIAs 1, 8, 23, 115, etc the toilets were to one side at the ends and I suspect that the ventilator and filler cap were offset from the centre line. Mike Trice shows the filler on the centre line with the end ventilators offset towards the toilet for diagrams 23 and 115 and this is what I have done. Photos of coaches show this and also everything in line. Additionally, both filler cap and ventilator offset in opposite directions can be seen. Sometimes you just have to take a guess.
Anyway, here is the finished result. Compartment side and corridor side, interior and roof arrangement.
Couplings are Kadee #711. Pictures are black and white, mirrors square as hopefully befits a 1920s vehicle, smoking seats green leather and non-smoking blue cloth, darkened teak interior woodwork.
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Working on Ian Kirk 8844 LNER Side Corridor 7 compartment full 1st coach. Whilst the kit claims to be appropriate for Diagrams 1 and 2 it really seems to best represent DIA 2 carriages. I chose a GN routes version which makes it number 4151 only. Problem: this coach had 8’ 0” Gresley bogies which I take not to be the heavy ones.
So, start with MJT CCU 8’ wheelbase and 8’ 6” Gresley standard cosmetic bogie. Take out 1 mm each end from the point where the inner edge of the wheel rims would be, epoxy the three parts to the CCU and fill the gaps with Milliput.
Now, MJT CCUs have for some come unsoldered against one side when in use as the central brass rod joint to one side flexes and breaks. My fix is to set this up with the rod soldered to one side as normal but made longer to just pass through the other side (with the cosmetic frame drilled slightly to take this extension). A small piece of brass tube about 2mm long is cut to be a good fit over the brass rod and this is threaded onto the rod on the extended side outside of the central pivot. It is then epoxied (or soldered) in position as in the photo so that the one side of the CCU, thus held in place, can flex without there being any twist forces. Potentially this approach could be a fix for unsoldered CCUs if a tight tube fit can be found that would not only hold the CCU together as described but also provide a secure fit for an extension to the rod through the side as described above.
I do not like the “popper” attachment on MJT bogies. I use 1/8th brass rod with a 10BA nut filed down and fixed inside it as the underframe bogie mounting attached to the body of the coach. A 10BA bolt, with washer soldered to it, passes through the CCU into this with the washer filed down on one side to allow it to pass under the central rod and with a piece of brass wire soldered across the bolt slot to allow it to be turned into position. Photos should make this clear. Alternatively, drill a hole in the brass tube attached to the carriage floor and pin with a tapered brass pin or a tie of fine fuse wire
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So, with painting and lifting dates applied, finally calling it finished!
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I have finally figured out what I think is the roof ventilator and filler pattern at each end by looking at the photo and drawing lines on a plan. It is not symmetrical. The north end is the one where the toilet stayed the same and the south end the one that was rebuilt. My best guess is the roof looked like this with end ventilators off centre and one filler off centre too...
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Making good progress. Still working on what the layout of the ends of the roof look like...
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Diagram 139 corridor 1st below
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Diagram 65 Non-corridor brake 3rd
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Diagram 49 semi-corridor composite
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Diagram 45 (Steel paneled) gangwayed brake
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I thought I would add to this thread with what I believe is the simplest way of reproducing teak. I know some of the following coaches have some of the errors listed earlier – they were made many years ago and will be updated in due course where possible. They are all Kirk kits in origin with MJT add-on parts. They are shown for the teak finish.
The undercoat is simply the light brown plastic of the Kirk kits with the exception of the DIA 45 steel panelled brake which has scratch-built sides and was sprayed a mid-sand colour from the Halfords car range. Different panels can of course be coloured differently. The technique then is to use artists oil paints, mostly burnt Sienna but variously mixed with Vandyke brown, burnt umber and raw Sienna. These are brushed on with a flat brush to cover the surface and then in the appropriate grain direction from left to right (if you are right-handed!). A different colour can be applied parallel to the grain within a single panel. At this point the lines of grain may be quite crude and the paint thickness will vary quite a bit too. The next part of the process is to smooth this out and make the finish more subtle. Take a clean toothbrush and move its edge along the paint in the direction of the grain from the right-hand side towards the left to take away any build-up against the vertical mouldings. Now do your final move from left to right to finish the effect. If you don’t like what you see you can use the toothbrush again or go back to the flat brush stage. That is the beauty of slow drying oil paints. Adding Liquin will speed the drying process but still give you plenty of working time.
This approach should give a smooth but grainy effect. It will also inevitably build up next to the mouldings giving an impression of dirt lying there. As an additional piece of sophistication is to represent the nailed panel repairs that came after the second world war (although I now discover it is wrong for my period of interest – the LNER glued the panels in place) by pausing the toothbrush movement in the appropriate spot on the lower horizontal panels and backtracking just slightly. You can just see this best on Diagram 139.
Add transfers when dry and overcoat with Ronseal Satin thinned with Humbrol enamel thinners or any varnish of your choice.
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As I review Michael Harris’s books on LNER coaches I find reference to three types of third-class seating in the inter-war years, as follows:
· Until 1932 - Fawn rep with brown buttons, brown leathercloth armrests & piping. Which I take as being as illustrated in the following picture of rep circa 1930. The second picture from the corridor brake 3rd is much lighter, probably due to the lighting (Sorry, I cannot recall the source of this one). Which is closest to the actual fabric shade please?
The second question relates to the 1930s. Harris mentions two types used after 1932:
· (With intermediate armrests) Special brown moquette
· (Without armrests) Ordinary brown moquette
Can anyone enlighten me as to what these two patterns were? Were they the same material pattern as before in moquette instead of rep or a new pattern? What did they look like?
Any help would be appreciated here.
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Some tweaking of the original design has been required as I found new pictures from the National Railway Museum collection:
https://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10685295&itemw=4&itemf=0003&itemstep=1&itemx=1
Making good progress though...
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The best I can make out is that the grab handle and toilet water filler would be positioned in the following sketch. And presumably the north end is a mirror image. But, this does not account for a second grab handle. Was there one? This coach was adapted from a diagram 23 and any pictures of that do not clarify. Anyone got any thoughts here please?
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The Isinglass drawing shows cylinders with gauges underneath the coach. The one on the corridor side looks just like a standard vacuum cylinder air reservoir apart from the gauge and the one on the compartment side is much larger and also has the gauge. What is the purpose of these and is the one on the corridor side in fact just a standard vacuum cylinder air reservoir but with a gauge for some reason?
Second question is about the toilet filler and roof handrails. I have only found one photo of this, actually in 1928 condition, and this shows the following: (not reproduced in full for copyright reasons)
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This thread was affected by the data losses in March 2022 and so i have restored those parts that are of use to others. I think I solved my roof questions.
I started building this Flying Scotsman Diagram 23A coach from the Kirk 4mm kit. There were a couple of issues I could not then sort which I think I solved. Rather than re-edit the whole thread I will just post back some of the missing pictures.
A view inside of the cocktail bar and some third class compartments.
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There are wagon builders plates available commissioned from John Peck of Precision Labels and some may be seen at https://www.instagram.com/precisionpics
These private owner wagon plates cover:
Charles Roberts Builders dated
Charles Robert Builders undated
Derbyshire Carriage & Wagon Company
Gloucester Carriage & Wagon Company Builders
Gloucester Carriage & Wagon Company Owners
Gloucester Carriage & Wagon Company Repair (2 types)
Sample L&YR, GWR, LMS, LNER, SR weight plates and Big Four owners plates. Also some LNER carriage plates for dimensions and weight.
Here are some example pictures of my builds with POWsides lettering transfers:
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There are wagon builders plates available commissioned from John Peck of Precision Labels and some may be seen at https://www.instagram.com/precisionpics
These private owner wagon plates cover:
Charles Roberts Builders dated
Charles Robert Builders undated
Derbyshire Carriage & Wagon Company
Gloucester Carriage & Wagon Company Builders
Gloucester Carriage & Wagon Company Owners
Gloucester Carriage & Wagon Company Repair (2 types)
Sample L&YR, GWR, LMS, LNER, SR weight plates and Big Four owners plates. Also some LNER carriage plates for dimensions and weight.
Here are some example pictures of my builds with POWsides lettering transfers:
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LNER Gunpowder Van Label
in Modelling Questions, Help and Tips
Posted
This LNER Gunpowder Van label was brought to my attention. The accreditation is as follows: "First published by the Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain in 'Black Powder' magazine, Autumn 2023. From the collection of Paul Wolpe". The label measures 9.8 inches by 6 inches.
Given that Rapido have introduced an appropriate van I hope that this will be of use.