PWay_Chough

Thanks Wickham Green too, 1948 is much earlier than I'd have thought, also when bearing in mind how many photos are out there showing rail handling on/off wagons using men and not machines, right into the late 50's. The increased use of CWR in the 60's will have seen greater need for more of these rail loading cranes, to collect up the sixty foot rails back to the PAD asap after CWR was laid in. I'd also forgotten about Robel - it was the whole wagon that was referred to as a Stumec on the LMR. Sorry, not yet sure how to reply individually to each of you here..... Rivercider - thanks. Yes, Larkin's book Civil Engineers Wagons Vol 2 1968-1977 - a really good book, like his others in that series, and I've noted the list of conversions he gives. I reckon a good few of these wagons were around pre-70's and it may well be that the modernisation of the WCML in the 60's saw the introduction of Stumec-type wagons here earlier than on some other routes/regions, though I still have no proof or as to when the WR brought them in, will have to keep looking. It doesn't surprise me that records were poor, it's the sort of stuff that gets dumped as not many people would be interested in that information - except some modellers five decades later. I wonder if the WR's Elk code name arose from the two cranes sticking up from the wagon deck like a pair of Elk antlers. Just a thought.

Hi, The Western Region (and ScR for a while) originally allocated four-figure Permanent Way Machine numbers to their on-track equipment, such as Wickham trollies. tractors, tampers, ballast cleaners, etc, I think it started with the GWR. Just asking if there is anyone out there who might know about this quite obscure subject. It's a little detail I'd like to add to some of my modelling but I might just make up the numbers if I can't find out anything. Thanks

Hi, Does anyone know when Stumec cranes (for loading used rails) were first introduced on BR? They were around on the LMR in the early 1970's when I worked for the Divisional Civil Engineer at Watford, consisting of two small cranes, each with a petrol engine at the top, and mounted on Salmon/Sturgeon wagons but maybe some were around as early as the 1960's. Not sure how widespread the Stumec name travelled but the LMR used this. I've seen various names given to them, including Elks (WR), Geismars and Bedsteads (ER) (Stumec = code for Sturgeon Mechanical?) and the 3D prints I've seen on Ebay would be of later versions, so aren't really what I'm looking for. Some of Paul Bartlett's photos include earlier versions as they would have looked in the 1980's but can't see any introduction info anywhere online or even in David Larkin's books. Thanks........

Hi, Hopefully this is the right forum to post my query in...... Does anyone know anything about the Refreshment Vans (see attached from an STN of 1953, LMR) included as part of a ballast train, used for PWay workmen? They may have been some kind of kitchen/mess and tool van, I've found very little information when searching and as I'm modelling 1960's WR focusing on a PWay yard, was wondering what might this 'van' consisted of. They could well have been any old coach that had seen better days and the old Hornby Clerestory coach might fit the bill. Any information/discussion would be very helpful. Thanks.

Yes, they are all in a single working, as these notices usually stated when a train was spilt into separate runs, so this lot of fourty would have been all in one go. At the back of the notice there are daily workings of thirty three or more loaded Dogfish from various WR quarries using a 37 or 47 class loco, it was common. All interesting stuff and hopefully useful for modellers too......

This might help, if the topic of formations is still open. The attached scan from a WK Notice shows the formation of various ballast trains in the mid-70's Cardiff Division, with lots of Grampus, Dogfish, Ganes, tampers, etc for a reballasting job using a traxcavator. Obviously it's on the WR but gives an idea of the way trains were made up, main difference will be that Salmon or Sturgeon would be the wagons used for prefab track panels instead of the Ganes, if modelling a different region. The WR seemed to guard their engineer's stock well, keeping their Dogfish and Grampus within the region. These notices give a wealth of information about the wide range of of rolling stock used on engineering operations. Mermaids, 'CO' wagons (Tunny, Starfish or Grampus), Elks (rail loading cranes on Salmon or Gane), shoulder ballast cleaner, Matisa ballast cleaners, viaduct inspection unit and even some really old Jones cranes still surviving from decades before.....

Hello, Does anyone have any knowledge/photos of what a stillage looked like for building up track panels at Pre-assembly Depots (PAD)? I've managed to get a couple of glimpses of one which appears to be at (I think) Newlands PAD on the 'Making Tracks' film and I expect these stillages varied around the regions anyway, as did so much else. I'm aiming to model one in OO Gauge as part of a larger PAD (Wales, 1960's) diorama that I'm working on but can't find much information around, it's hardly the sort of subject that would have been a focus over the years. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.

I came across a job lot of Cardiff Division 1970's weekly ballast notices at BR's 'Collector's Corner' near Euston Station some years ago and snapped them up, they give a lot of detail about the train consists and much else, so I may make them available for anyone interested. As with Bristol's, these were all 'Z' codes too, as were WR London Division's but what's also interesting to me is the number of older rail-mounted cranes (both steam and diesel) that were still in use on the PWay at that time. Other regions had probably disposed of their older cranes (Tatlow's Cranes Vol 3 will obviously confirm or otherwise) but the WR kept some of theirs going, small and large. The crane 'DW' numbers are even given in some of these notices and, of course, there are the PWM locos too. The format of the notice uses WR routes for headings, so all trains on a particular work site are combined together I'm actually (slowly) working on modelling in OO a fictitious engineer's yard/PWay depot circa mid-1960's around the mid-Wales area, when there would still be the odd workman's coach formed in a ballast train and when mechanisation was still reliant on a good-sized gang of workers during a possession. I think the LMR held on longer to a load of the old plank wagons and other opens that it inherited early on, I just don't recall fleets of Grampus in LM trains, rather, a mixed bag of opens of different types with some Grampus thrown in, all of them referred to generically as 'ED's'. The ScR included ballast trains at the back of their weekly STN's during the 1960's but gave only departure/return locations and times, no consist details or anything else, just a list of all trains, no headcodes. No idea what happened after the 60's. The Southern's printed versions for each of its three divisions were really detailed, all set out in tabular form. Again with 'Z' headcodes, showing consist, the stations passed through along each train's route to/from a possession, where the traction pick-up shoe had to be raised, lots of code letters referring to shunting, etc. Works of art (almost) putting all that together. There is an issue in that the trains for any one possession/site were not listed together, they were scattered about the notice, with yet more confusion when, in addition to the four character headcode, a train might also be listed as 'Train No.....1 or 2' et seq for a particular possession which involved lots of ballast trains. Quite a different system on the Southern. Anyway, thanks for your West of England example. I did pick up a Bristol notice recently for 1989, a rare find, and can see that East Depot was still a main centre for such trains, also that the Grampus were still holding on in the midst of newer wagons being added to the fleet. I think Westbury has now taken over from Bristol for engineer's trains and all things connected. Best

Hello, I know this topic is now over ten years old but it's of interest to me, having only just come across your article. I'm not familiar with the West Midlands practice of including ballast workings in a Weekly Freight Notice but I do have various 70's examples from other divisions of the LMR. Stoke Area used two figure item numbers, as did Nottingham Division, and in both cases these were also a train's number, presumably the last two figures of the four digit train codes. They listed each train in some detail. When I worked for the Divisional Civil Engineer at Watford in the 70's the then Divisional Manager produced the Weekly Ballast Train Programme (BTP) listing trains as, eg 9L45, 9X50 or whatever ('X' usually for the prefab or LWR trains), showing each consist as a handwritten list to the left of its working, stabling, etc for the Western Lines (Euston and Marylebone routes). For the Midland Lines (St Pancras route) of the that division the BTP was almost identical but in typed form, not written. All trains for a particular possession were listed together under that job's heading, eg ballast cleaning. PICOPs were listed, the BTP also used abbreviations such as EP (Engineer's Possession limits), WAR, NETR (No Engineer's Train Required), ABC (Automatic Ballast Cleaner), P&G (Power and Guard) and BRO (Brake Van). All tampers/liners bore the code 9Z03 when at work. I don't know if the format of these circulars was used during the 1960's and, in any case, this sort of paperwork rarely survived for obvious reasons, it just got chucked. Like Fat Controller, I used to find discarded copies lying about in sidings but I gathered them up whether they had oily marks or not. While I was still at school and interested in PWay matters, the local PWay gang in my home town used to save their copy of the BTP to give me, rather than burn it each week...... Later I started on a quest to find out how ballast trains were arranged and notified on other divisions and regions, turning up all sorts of different varieties and forms, some printed externally at private printing companies, others being Roneos. Strange fascination maybe and it never really went away. However, getting hold of examples of different versions of these circulars, notices, minutes, programmes or whatever else they were called locally was always going to be a big challenge but they did give me an insight into the different way that operations were planned, as well as the different types of engineer's rolling stock and how the Western Region seemed to guard its fleet of Grampus and Dogfish well and not end up with just old plank wagons, as Watford Division seemed to, for its spoil trains and a jumble of Catfish and Mackerel hoppers. I think Network Rail now refer to ballast train arrangements as Engineer's Haulage (EHD) documents and all are in a national, standard format, like so much else these days, with none of the distinctive character of the circulars from BR days. Also the Movements Manager at Crewe used to issue an Out of Gauge Loads (OG) circular for LWR delivery trains running from Castleston to wherever needed on the LMR. I am interested to know if the format for West Midlands in 1963 shown by Phil continued into later years, just in case anyone is aware of such things. Maybe this isn't the place to bring this up (and so many years later), in which case apologies, perhaps I should start a new topic as I think this topic can be quite relevant to modelling. Anyway, thanks. Best, Shaun

Thanks Paul. Yes, the Fruit D is spot on for the dimensions needed, I'll look into the Dapol model but would the Parkside kit do, I assume it meets the dimensions? Buffers will need changing on any of these models though. I was going to redo all the brake rigging on the BR Tube (not Pipe wagon, as previously mentioned) but will forget that now I'm not using it as the doner. I'm trying to do the whole project on a budget. Shaun

Ah, thanks. This can be a little confusing as the two machines do look similar but the Minnow was used for the the underframe of the generator wagon of the 8CB5, am I correct? I can't remember where I saw that mentioned but the underframe details do match. As I can't find a OO gauge Minnow I'm opting for a 22 tonne BR pipe wagon (diag 447) to modify (quite a lot, though wheelbase and length aren't far off) as the frame for the separate generator wagon. It's this power wagon I'm going to start with in the scratch build, then hopefully I can use it to work out dimensions for the main machine. Matisa have got back to me but can't find any records for these machines, so can't tell me their length or give any details of cutter bar, chute and other components, so I'm working from various photos and scaling the various components myself. It might not work that accurately but I'll try. Back in the mid-70's my Dad (who worked for BR) brought home a book of CCE plant diagrams for the LMR (similar to the Barrowmore BR books) and, yes, some of the dimensions I need now were in that book (!) but I have no idea where it disappeared to...... I can recall seeing the diagrams of the older Matisa machines (they weren't so old then) being included, along with Duomatic tampers and the rest. Those earlier machines also looked more interesting visually and mechanical (to me) than their descendants. Correct me if I'm wrong about the generator wagon/Minnow, I need to sort this out, and thanks for your help. Shaun

This is fantastic and in N scale too. I'm in the process of planning a scratch build of an early Matisa ballast cleaner (1960's) in OO Gauge but the company can't find any records which would help determine the dimensions, details of the conveyors, etc, so I'm working from very little material, quite a task but a very interesting on. Not that many photos around of this old machine either. As a matter of interest, did Plasser provide you with any diagrams to help with yours?

Have a look at these from an early BR Western Notice to Enginemen (1948), they gives some idea about the consist of engineer's trains in those days, it might answer your question. I've collected these over the years from different regions and eras. Many of the details in this notice (it's packed full) show a brake third or workmen's coach to get the PWay workers to and from site, along with open wagons (Starfish, planked, etc), a crane and/or ballast wagons (doesn't specify 'hoppers') with brake van(s). There are also references to Motor Trolleys (Wickham or prior to those) being used on some works in the more remote parts of the Western Region at that time, as well as 'Road Motors' or parcels vans to use for transport. Fascinating stuff, even gives the Inspector's name for each worksite.

I've just found the diagram, thanks, was looking at the Barrowmore website only the other day but hadn't expected the engineer's fleet to be contained in the Freight books, so hadn't checked those, but it's all in there. Thanks for such speedy responses and pointing me to the diagrams. Now all I need to do is find out the various dimensions of an older Matisa ballast cleaner, quite a task, although the company have said they'll look in their archives at some point........

Does anyone have a full set of spare decals/transfers for the Dapol crane: 'DW' numbers for crane, BBA bolster match wagon number, etc) ? Not the Dapol sheet as supplied with the kit. I can swap some wagon numbers and allocation lettering from waterslides I have for various BR engineer's fishkind wagons (CC transfers SR/WR: Sturgeon, Borail, Walrus hopper wagon and some others).