Commoner

I don’t think the debate as to whether 43xxx vehicles were classed as coaching stock or loco’s is that pertinent to the original post. Their reclassification as locos in the mid 80s is not an explanation for the lack of prefixes. PCs were returning from overhaul without prefixes as far back as 1980/81 when they were still classed as coaching stock and at least on the WR there were concerted attempts to keep them on their allocated sets. That changed on that region from 1984 onwards. However, an HST power car is a power car and as originally designed their only diagrammed work was as part of a complete HST set.

1985.10.22 43187 approaching Reading

1985.06.01 43190 Reading

1985.09.07 43186 Plymouth

1985.08.10 43189 Bristol TM and 1985.06.21 43164 York

I used to record WR HST formations regularly in the 1970s and 1980s and can offer the following. The non-prefixing of some power cars and trailers began around the end of 1980. Derby Works started returning sets from overhaul without prefixes and in some cases without set numbers - the WR seemed keen to re-apply the latter but the re-application of the prefixes to both trailers and power cars was inconsistent for a period. However, by 1985 the prefixing of trailers had once again become more consistent. In 1984 some power cars allocated to Laira and St Philips Marsh started to receive black vehicle numbers on the right hand side of the cab, those on the left hand side on the guards section remaining white and I recall most of the power cars listed by Francoes fell into this category by 1985. Some also started to receive power car numbers on the front coupling hatch in place of where the unit number would have been. I haven't had time to find photographic evidence for them all but will post a few pics from 1984/85 in due course. My notes record that from observation, by 26/03/86 43183-192 were all in executive livery and therefore had black vehicle numbers unprefixed on both sides. 43163-66 were in executive livery by mid-summer 1986 at least. It's also worth noting that 43165/66 were loaned to the ER from May 1986-May 1987. Also by 1984 the WR like the ER had adopted a common user approach to its power car allocation and as such it was rare, though not impossible, to find a pair of power cars on their originally allocated set. In terms of prefixing trailers, during the years of executive livery the trailers did seem to receive their regional prefixes. Interestingly, all the NE/SW sets listed by Francoes were blue and grey in 1986 and in fact were among the last sets to lose their original livery. Hope this helps.

Here is the formation of the 03.25 Padd-Oxford Newspapers from the relevant 1986 Paddington station working book. It was booked to contain a BSK. Hope this is of use.

Saturday 1st October 1977. Photographed from the 'Torbay Express' railtour, HST set 253 020 which on this date was formed 43040, 42062/60, 40020, 42061, 40520, 41041/42, 43041, sits on platform 12 at Bristol Temple Meads having just worked the 09.20 Paddington service. Despite being only 10 months old at this point, the power car shows heavy paint flaking, which made it instantly identifiable at the time. Now 46 years later, after mainy different coats of paint and with several million miles under its belt, 43040 has been stood down. I wonder if the lads looking on are among us, the driver and the guard from the train opposite are I suspect, long gone. How time flies by. My purchased Kodachrome transparency, with rights to share.

Yes it did on a demonstration and timing run on 18th March 1975.

Thanks Peter. I'd like to give it a try. It's all about time I'm afraid. Hopefully, I will get it done before 50th anniversary of the introduction of production sets to passenger service!

The overhaul of the prototype HST set took place over an extended period - June to November 1974. As well as offering the opportunity to thoroughly examine the performance of various components, it allowed various modifications to be carried out, and the incorporation of some features planned for the production sets. The conversion to a multiple unit with the installation of 415V 3-phase supply. It was on completion of the overhaul that the set was re-classified Class 252 and the power cars and stock renumbered in the 4xxxx series. As far as books go, I have always thought that "HSTs at Work" by Roger Ford and Brian Perren from 1987 is the best read. The 125 Group produced their Haynes Manual of the HST in 2018 or 2019 which is also very good from a technical point of view. I believe there is still a detailed story to tell of the prototype and the early years of HST operation and one day I hope to have a stab at writing it. Trying to cram the the full HST history into one volume I suspect is unrealistic. Fair play to anyone who wants to give it a go and do it justice.

I have access to the prototype's performance reports produced by RTC and latterly by the WR's CMEE's dept. The prototype MKIII HST catering vehicles were married up to the set for the first time W/C 6/7/73. They only stayed in the set for a short period of time, before being loaned to the LMR in October 1973. After a period of testing and crew training, from mid-November 1973 they were used in revenue earning service for evaluation purposes. There is no record of them returning to the prototype HST set, prior to the entire set entering Works for a prolonged overhaul in June 1974. RKB 1524 is recorded in the set up until June 1974 and there is no record of it thereafter. 10000 and 10100 became 40000, and 40500 and moved with the prototype set to the WR in December 1974. Construction of HST catering vehicles began in late 1975/early 1976. However, the first TRSB, 40001 wasn't outshopped until mid-late April 1976. Construction of TRUK vehicles was slower than anticipated and 40501 didn't emerge from Works until August 1976, and was delivered to the WR at the beginning of September 1976. To cover the short fall in TRUKs at the start of the WR's HST service in October 1976 a number of sets were temporarily formed with 2 TRSBs.

My photo, which looks like it's had some heavy duty photoshopping judging by the colour balance. The original, which I should clean up (note all the dust marks), can be found here. The second time it's been "lifted" this past month without a credit.

Thanks Neil. All the Best Kevin (Commoner)

Hi Neil, Thanks for that. I have just sent you a PDF of screenshots of the thread from 2009. If you unearth anything new that you had not sent before I would be really keen to see it. Similarly if there is anyone reading the thread for the first time and has any relevant observations from 1976-78 please get in touch. Best Wishes to All

Yes the set was disbanded in April 76 and the power cars were used in a special test train monitoring the performance of the P8 tyre profile on the production HST trailers. That particular train also included a loco-hauled MkIII, 12140. The slow delivery of production units forced BR to revise the the interim IC125 timetable to be introduced on 4/10/76. Original plans were for 17 sets being available to cover 12 diagrams. In actuality there were only enough sets available to cover 8 diagrams from 4/10/76. Hence the prototype was reformed and the official diagrams show it booked to work the 08.00/16.00 Paddington-Swansea and 12.00/20.00 return services, Monday-Friday. It also had booked worked on Saturdays and Sundays. Part of the reason for it being restricted to designated workings was due to the availability of footplate crew who were cleared to drive it. I speculate, but I suspect that was a factor in its withdrawal. WR HST control needed flexibility, particularly when swapping sets between diagrams in the event of late running and failures. The prototype was a "special bird" and wasn't much help in that respect. Once enough production sets were available it was probably an easy decision to withdraw 252 001.

Neil, I have extensive records of HST formations from 76-81 with information sourced from over 100 different contributors, including yourself from way back when. 252 001 was very active in October 76 but the last observation I have for it in traffic is 01/11/76. A correspondent informed me that it failed in traffic on 30/10/76 and its service was cancelled at short notice. Interestingly it had a fixed diagram and during W/C 01/11/76 production sets were noted on that particular working, formed with 2 TRSBs. There were no production TRUKs in traffic until W/C 15/11/76. I am of the view that it was stood down that week. In terms of pure numbers, there were also enough production sets available by this date to make it surplus to requirements. At the start of October 76 its use was essential given the deficit in deliveries of production sets.

Don't know if this helps but this is the end of the same TRUB parked at S.P.Marsh next to 43055. Apologies for the filthy state of the transparency - it's come from the "rejects" box.

As far as I recall the gangways of all HST production trailers were yellow. Attached is a shot of the end gangway of a WR stabled at St Philips Marsh on 03.03.79. Apologies for the filthy slide and general poor quality. I also took a shot from the other end, which also shows the gangway doors as yellow. I have also included a shot of 40011 new at Derby on 14.08.76 also showing yellow gangway doors. A later shot of buffet counter end of E40340 from 1984 is found here

That's detailed stuff Flood. Thanks for sharing it. Like the shot of 50003 arriving at Truro as well. Thanks.

Whoops. I should have pointed out that the accompanying detail with the negative confirms 50035 as the loco featured. It was the accuracy of the date that appeared to be in question. Thanks for the link to Jon Woolley's shot which I hadn't seen before. Thanks Kevin (Commoner)

I am not a 50 expert so but I don't think this mod was widespread before fleet refurbishment. 50035 was the first 50 to be named in a ceremony at Reading in January 1978. I am not sure if the mod pre-dates that event for which the loco was turned out in superb external condition.

Many thanks to you both for the above information. RMWeb proves again that its membership has all the answers. Obviously photograph dates from summer 1978. Thanks.

Another John Vaughan negative I recently purchased with an incorrect date. Photograph is dated 1977, but 50s weren't named until 1978. Location is given as Wolfhall which I believe is near Savernake? The signal in the photograph has not been commissioned. A confirmation of the location combined with the date from which MAS was commissioned for this part of the B and H line would go some way to more accurately dating the photograph. Any help would be much appreciated.

Well that didn't take long. Many Thanks. Kevin (Commoner)