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    Natalie Jones

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  1. This is a welcome addition for lovers of SR electric traction like myself. (Bulleid/ Raworth Co-Co electrics are 'quirky' too...) One point to consider is shades of green. According to the 4DD page on the excellent Blood and Custard website (written by ex-Controller John Atkinson) when the units were newly delivered in 1949 (4001- 10th September and 4002 3rd October) it was in the first (or early) BR Green (described as akin to malachite) with left hand numbers and no signs of ownership. The unit numbers although in the standard place appear to be larger than normal and not of Gill Sans type. At their first varnish at Lancing, the coach numbers were relocated to the right hand end and a lion and wheel emblem was applied to each motor coach. 4001 was in Lancing between 17th and 26th September 1951 whilst 4002 followed from 17th-28th September 1951. At their first overhaul, also at Lancing both of the units were repainted into a darker shade of green (probably Coaching Stock Colour 11 as per the region's loco-hauled stock.) Both units went into Lancing on 30th October 1957 with 4002 being released on 6th February 1958 and 4001 on 14th February 1958. Return to traffic for both units was 24th February 1958. Emblem was presumably the BR carriage roundel applied to the motor coaches but I need to have a nose through my books etc to confirm. The small yellow panels were applied by Eastleigh during their second major overhaul. 4001 was in works 4th January- 23rd April 1965 and 4002 9th February 1965 until 18th June 1965. 4002 was noted on departure sporting a temporary reflective band around the roller blind headcode. A pic with this is on KR Model's announcement/ advert in BRM. The emblem fitted remained as before- a BR carriage roundel on each of the motor coaches. During 1968 Selhurst applied full yellow ends to the existing green livery, 4001 between 5th-24th January and 4002 5th-25th January. The BR carriage roundels remained as previously. Selhurst was also responsible for the next (and final) appearance change and the renumbering into the 49xx series. The official renumbering date for both units was 15th September 1970 with 4001 becoming 4901 and 4002 becoming 4902. This was undertaken whilst both units were at Selhurst for a final repaint. Both units were at Selhurst between 14th and 26th September 1970 and were outshopped in Rail blue with full yellow ends complete with double arrow emblem behind the guard/luggage compartment double doors. This was the livery both units were officially withdrawn in on 9th October 1971 with 30th September 1971 being their last traffic day. I hope the above is of interest but again would recommend a visit to the excellent Blood and Custard website for further details (and of most other SR emu types too).
  2. Hi As promised here are my photos of the MT6 plan at Kew for Central Croydon on its reopening in 1886. I have included the Inspection Report too for those who want to decipher the handwriting. Hope that they provide some answers. I also have the same for Greenwich LC&DR station if of interest.
  3. Hi A very interesting thread about a station that I have an interest in too. There is in The National Archives at Kew the Board of Trade file for inspecting the signalling at this station. It indicates that it was a reopening of previous facilities. The file details are: MT6/417/17 Central Croydon LB&SCR 1885-1886. The file also includes a signalling plan provided by the LBSCR but does not have lever numbering (the LBSCR tended not to at this time) but is still of great interest. I photographed the plan and the file and if of interest will post it here. (I need to post it from the laptop rather than the phone am currently banging away at.) The TNA has much of interest for modellers seeking places to model or be inspired by, I would recommend a visit if that is your thing. Another interesting station is Greenwich Park which I have also photted the MT 6 file and additionally have photos of the diagram and frame and a drawing of the layout. Another interesting station.
  4. Hi In case it is of interest I have copied the details of the Met locos that were sold to other railways, rather than for scrapping. They are taken from Frank Goudie's book mentioned above. 6- Sold in 1906 to Fraser, Resold to Pelaw Main Colliery in 1926. 7- Sold in 6-1925 to Fraser who resold it to Mersey Railway (as No 2- to replace ex Met 61) 10, 11, 12, 13, 15- Sold in 11-1905 to Cambrian Railway (as Nos 2, 12, 33, 34, 36.. Nos 34 and 36 converted by Cambrian to 4-4-0 tender Locos (GWR Nos 1113 and 1114 allocated), with the remaining nos 2, 12, 33 allocated GWR Nos 1129-1132 respectively. 14- Sold in 1905 to South Hetton Coal Co. (Converted to 0-6-0T as No 6, later National Coal Board (No 2 Area) no 66) 20- Sold in 1905 to Bradford Corporation (Nidd Valley Lt Rly No 1 'Holdsworth') 22- Sold in 5-1925 to District Rly (No 35, later Underground L35) 24- Sold in 1913 to Fraser, Resold to Birtley Colliery in 1923 26- Sold in 1926 to Pelaw Main Colliery 28- Sold in 1906 to Sherwood Colliery 34- Sold in 1905 to Bradford Corporation (Nidd Valley Lt Rly No 2 'Milner'- resold to North Wales Granite Co, Conway Quarry in 1914 and renamed 'Conway') 37- Sold in 1907 to West Somerset Mineral Railway (later sold by auction ?? Bute Works Supply Co?) 44- Sold in 6-1925 to Fraser, Resold to Pelaw Main Colliery in 1926 61- Sold in 1907 to Mersey Railway (as No 2) 66- Sold in 1905 to Cambrian Railway (as No 37. Allocated GWR number 1132) A little bit more info regarding the Underground (ex District) examples post electrification: Nos 27,33,34,35,36,39 retained post 1905 for engineering and ballast train use. Nos 27,35,36,39 were withdrawn in 9-1909 leaving only 33 and 34 for works trains. No 33- withdrawn 10-1925 (replaced by 'new' 35 (ex-Met 22) No 34- Fitted with a narrow cab in 1927 and retained condensing equipment. Pic 'c1930' shows sleet brushes fitted. Livery appears unlined and caption states 'Underground black livery.' Lettered Underground and 34. Renumbered L34 in 1931, withdrawn 5-1932 Loco Profile 10 has the following: "Last survivor of the District stock, No 34, was fitted with a cab in 1927, and in 1928 was part of the District's diamond jubilee exhibition at Kensington; by then it was painted black, lined out in red, and lettered UndergrounD above the maker's plate with the number below." (p240) No 35- Was built as Met 22, sold to MDR in 5-1925 (as a replacement for MDR 33) and renumbered (MDR) 35, (Underground) L35 in 1931, withdrawn 1932. Pic dated 'late 1920s' shows it fitted with a cab, but with condensing equipment removed. Vac brake and tripcock in situ. Pic shows loco as UndergrounD 35 wearing "the final Metropolitan red livery." Single lined panel on tank and bunker. Lettered UndergrounD 35. Loco Profile 10 describes this loco as being "painted a still deeper and richer shade of chocolate, lined out in black and white." (p240) Note- There were two MDR Locos numbered 35. The first loco was BP No 2057 built in 3-1881 and withdrawn in 9-1909. The second loco was built for the Met as their No 22 (BP No 709), built in June 1866 and withdrawn in 5-1925. This is the 35 described above. 35 was used for this loco as it was simply the next vacant in 1925 when it joined the MDR fleet. On the subject of livery and District locos Loco Profile 10 has this to share: "Until 1876 District engines were painted an olive green much like the Met shade, but in that year a lighter green was adopted and the numbers were painted white on the tank sides. Then around 1881 the colour was changed again to a darker olive green with black and red lining; but lining was omitted in any repainting over the two or three years preceding electrification. Despite the similarity of colour, the brass numbers on the chimney and the contiguity of working, neither the Met nor the District engines bore any mark of ownership until the 1880s; then the Met adopted a large oval transfer on the tank sides with the company name round the border and the number inside, though the brass numbers on the chimneys remained." (p239) (The District opted to spell out DISTRICT RAILWAY in large letters (? white ?) underneath the loco number in the centre of the tank sides.) From 1864 to 1885, the colour of the (Met) locomotives was bright olive green; the chimneys had copper tops, and the dome covers and brass work were polished bright. The tank sides were lined black-yellow-black in a three panel arrangement. Under J.J. Hanbury, who came from the Midland, the colour was changed to a deep chocolate with dark lining (yellow edged in black), the tank sides had only one large lined panel in place of three, the domes were painted over. (p234) "From 1894 to 1905 polished dome and safety valve casings reappeared; and though the 'Hanbury chocolate' was retained the lining went back to three panels, and the large oval with the company's name and loco number was put in the centre panel." (p235) The so-called 'Hanbury chocolate' was also referred to as 'midcared' ( a dark red deeper than midland red). Natalie
  5. Hi Just catching up with this excellent thread. Forgive me if I am mistaken but there has so far been no mention of the South Eastern Railway's three examples. Built in 1880 and intended for the Met as their (B Class) Nos 57-59, the Met instead hired them from new to the SER to work the South Eastern's cross-London local services that wandered north of the Thames (via the Snow Hill tunnel and the Widened Lines) - such as Woolwich Arsenal- Alexandra Palace/ Enfield/ Muswell Hill. The locos that were originally introduced onto these services had proved to be underpowered and in order to allow the SER to resume its North London services, condensing locos were required. The three Met locos were sourced as a stop-gap until more permanent replacements could be built. Bradley's RCTS book on 'Locomotives of the South Eastern Railway' states they were purchased at £2045 (Goudie- £ 2150) each with BP maker's Nos of 1941/42/43 of May 1880. The first two locos (Met 57/ SER 299 and Met 58/ SER 300) were delivered to the SER- still in Met livery- in time to allow the through service to the GNR to start on 25th May 1880. The third loco (Met 59/ SER 301) followed on 11th June 1880. With the arrival of the third loco this enabled each engine in turn to be taken out of traffic and sent to Ashford Works where they received SER livery. There are no specific details of what this entailed for this class but the general livery notes for the time suggest that passenger locos would have been painted "Holly green with black bands and white lining." With the arrival of the 'suitable replacements' in the form of twelve condensing Q-Class 0-4-4T in 1882 (Goudie- June 1883). The three 'Beyer Tanks' as they were seemingly referred to as, were transferred temporarily to Tonbridge for local passenger work whilst Stirling negotiated their return to the Met. Terms were agreed at £1900 each on 27th November 1883 with 300/301 returning in early December and 299 on 9th January 1884. The Met restored their original intended numbers and they worked, usually on the Hammersmith and City, until withdrawn in 1907 (57) and 1911 (58 & 59) being sold to R Fraser of Newcastle upon Tyne. Another use I've not seen mentioned is the loan of Met A Class locos nos 9,10,14,15,17,23 to the Great Eastern between July-November 1872 to tide them over during a motive power shortage on their newly-opened Walthamstow, Edmonton and Chingford Lines. All in all the locos as a whole are of great interest, my main area being the Met and District locos. The Loco Profile 10- The Met Tanks- Brian Reed (Profile Publications, February 1971) is a must. Also of interest are Don Bradley's various 'Locomotives of. ... ' series for RCTS and Wild Swan for the locos used on the Southern constituents. The South Eastern Railway and LSWR Locos Part 1 (RCTS) being the most relevant along with the later enlarged 'Locomotives of the LSWR' for Wild Swan. Finally is 'Metropolitan Steam Locomotives' by Frank Goudie for Capital Transport, 1990. Hope my ramblings are of some use. Natalie
  6. Hi Jol, Sorry to hear about both yours and your wife's health issues and trust that they are resolved. I am hoping that you will continue to keep us all updated with the progress of your new layout. It sounds to be very promising indeed. There can never be too many London Roads especially to the superb standard that you build to. London Road remains one of my favourites of all time with the signalling and point rodding especially being exquisite. Having worked LNWR boxes the fitting of proper stirrup handles to the lever frames is a definite highlight. I have seen and photted the layout many times over the years and would like to thank you and your team for the pleasure that seeing it has bought to me, and for putting up with my presence and often stupid questions. I hope that I haven't been too much of a nuisance dribbling over it at shows. Whilst sad that it will not appear in its current form at shows anymore, I look forward to seeing what John does with his section and hopefully the development of your section. Thanks for your efforts, I've really appreciated them. Best wishes and Merry Christmas to you all.
  7. Until issue 170 the magazine was known as Locomotives Illustrated with only one of those dealing with a diesel- the Deltics (no 19 I think). MLI started from Issue 171 with class 37s. I feel that there is so much more that can be covered. The obvious one is to update the previous issue's subjects as they have been doing subtitled 'The New Era.' A number of the subjects only really received scant coverage- such as BR first generation DMUs and the Southern emus. Expansion of the subjects would be welcome. Coaching stock is another area as is wagons. Maybe being even more radical how about non BR traction such as that belonging to LT, DLR, Metrolink, Tyne and Wear Metro... Metropolitan Electric locomotives sounds good to me... Essentially if there are no more subjects left to cover, then Colin won't be able to write them. He and Key obviously believe that there is still mileage in the magazine for which I am really pleased.
  8. A factor in deciding the loco (AL6) above's identity is the AEI cross arm pantograph which I believe ten were fitted with from new.
  9. Hi This is excellent news indeed. Thanks for posting this. My intentions were not to mislead anybody by posting incorrect info so my apologies for doing so and thanks to Antony for being able to clear it up. The announcement is still on the Key Publishing subscribe to MLI section: "IMPORTANT NOTICE This title will end with the December/January issue (on-sale 26 November 2020). As as a result, subscriptions are no longer available. All existing subscribers will be contacted shortly regarding their account." Is Colin able to contact Key to get this message altered to reflect your message as it is potentially misleading? Thanks again Natalie PS Has my original topic been deleted- if so thank you.
  10. Which shade though? Very important in Southern circles... (lights touch paper and beats a hasty retreat. ..)
  11. Hi Mick A worthy and potentially complicated subject indeed! A good start would be to maybe get your hands on the 'standard' books on Southern Coaches such as the David Gould books for Oakwood or Mike King's for OPC, Crecy and KRB as there is a lot of info within including on repainting. I will sort a list out if you haven't got any of them. An excellent website is bloodandcustard which you should find much of interest. One of the subsections covers Southern coaching stock which is being detailed with a lot of info from Glen Woods- who is also prominent on SReMG and SRLHCS- both on groups.io Of potential interest are the following which detail the SR's repaint of Mk1 set from Crimson Lake and Cream to Southern Region Coach Green No 11. These have been copied from the records of Lancing Works. Glen has also compiled a book called 'Lancing 1956' which lists all the activities during that year at Lancing Works. This is purely text listing with no illustrations. There are some still available from the Bluebell Railway Museum Shop if of interest. I can supply a sample page shot to show you the format if required. Mk1 3-car sets CLC to G livery change (British Rail Southern Region): https://www.bloodandcustard.com/SR-CoachingSets-BR-ThreeSetsLiveries01.html Mk1 4-Cor sets CLC to G livery change (British Rail Southern Region): https://www.bloodandcustard.com/SR-CoachingSets-BR-FourSetsLiveries01.html Mk1 4-Cor Sets (British Rail Southern Region): https://www.bloodandcustard.com/SR-CoachingSets-BR-FourSets.html This is essentially the info on the Mk1 4Cor sets that was contained in the yearly SR Appendix to the Carriage Working Notice which details their formations and were they were allocated to work. Bloodandcustard also has some pre-grouping and Southern set formations as well as the excellent histories/profiles of a lot of the Southern Electric units. Don't forget the legendary 'varnishing' of the Southern which ensured some stock remained in unbranded Southern Railway liveries until well into the 1950s. Have fun!
  12. Quite an interesting issue with a number of interesting subjects. Found something strangely appealing/ inspiring about the muddy field with cows... The scenes with modelling water and drainage pipes I also enjoyed, not normally my type of thing, but definitely in this case so well done to the author and photographer (and whoever laid out the page too) for catching my attention. Class 01 article interesting too. Need to reread it again as I was getting cross eyed over the D2956/ D2965 issue. I am not sure if the proof reader had the same issue but I wouldn't be surprised. All I can say is that thank god it wasn't me. Which was the intended number btw? Nice to see something about the class- never saw any of them and they were almost mythical in status..
  13. Hi Colin Being the sub editor and proof reader of UPDate, I was in the position of getting an early preview of your article. I found nothing intrinsically wrong with at all and it read very nicely indeed. Such was that I needed to do very little alteration/corrections and they were of a time sensitive nature caused by the blasted virus cancelling your forthcoming appearances, so it seemed pointless to leave them in. It was a very interesting read on the logistics and otherwise of taking a layout to a show and all that it entailed. I echo Kelly's sentiments in thanking you for submitting something so quickly that was 'a bit different' subject wise and also well written. Please feel free to submit more material, especially if you model in 7mm scale as we as a magazine are very much under represented in that size. Thanks again for your article and I hope that we presented it to your liking. (The change of title/ adding of a subtitle was me so feel free to blame Kelly (D827 here).
  14. Hi Sorry for the delay. Time to clarify and correct the confusion caused by my inability to type numbers correctly... E5625 was apparently fitted with BT5 bogies for a time (Harris- "early 1972") as part of the development of the Mk3 stock. E5962 should have been M5970 which was converted into the prototype APT catering equipment vehicle and was later renumbered as M1800 and reclassed as RSS Restaurant Self Service. This was a more involved 'four-module' conversion. According to Harris in Mk2 Coaches there was another APT catering conversion carried out on another Mk2f TSO (it was this one that was M5962). Described by Harris as a 'galley conversion' it had 2 bays of seating replaced by a kitchen area which included an air circulation oven, a bread toaster and 2 fridges. It began public trials during October 1974 on the 1015 King's Cross- Leeds and a return. It later joined the then still-numbered M5970 on the West Coast after March 1975. Both are reported as retaining their original numbers at this time and TSO classification but had full length red cantrail bands. M5962 the galley car was restored to an open second during 1976 whilst M5970 was redesignated as RSS No M1800. I have never seen pics of any of the three vehicles mentioned so modified. The only RSS ones in BR use are the pair at Glasgow Central on Eastbank MRC's site. Also never seen are pics of the prototype Mk3 vehicles during their trial use in scheduled LH services on the East Coast (or the West Coast for that matter..) All in all not really very relevant to your excellent modelling but updated for completeness. Looking forward to seeing more of your excellent work.
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