Rivercider

The May 1982 Speedlink document I have also lists the trip working and feeder services in connection with the trunk trains. 9T90 09.00 MSX Warr Arp - Gathurst via Southport. 6T90 08.15 MO Springs Branch - Gathurst (barrier wagons) 6T90 10.25 MO Gathurst - Warr Arp. 6T90 12.00 MO Warr Arp - Gathurst 6T90 13.35 MO Gathurst - Warr Arp 9T90 13.45 SX Gathurst - Warr Arp Not sure which trip served Prescot, I don't know the names/locations well enough from the list, Through Lancaster the following trip/feeder services are mentioned. 7P28 06.25 MSX Warr WOJ - Workington 8P36 06.42 MSX Warr WOJ - Workington 7P60 05.30 SO Warr WOJ - Workington 7P36 08.10 MO Warr WOJ - Workington I am guessing one of the above pair 7P28/8P36 runs air, and one vac (possibly 8P36 at 35mph?) I do not see any corresponding southbound services from Workington, one loco might work 6O38 17.44 Workington - Dover and the other 9T31 18.50 Workington - Carlisle? cheers

You're welcome. I have had a lifelong interest in freight trains, (as a child I could hear the trucks shunted near our house), so always look out for freight train layouts at exhibitions. I have been lucky to have had books about the WR published, the most recent was Freight Trains of the Western Region in the 1980s, which does not help you much for Lancaster! I have the list of Speedlink trains dated 17th May 1982, there are two of the Trunk Train Routes that apply to the north end of the WCML Route 4. South Wales - Mossend where the relevant services are:- 6V93 09.05 MSX Mossend - STJ 6V93 05.44 SO Mossend - STJ 6V92 15.50 SX Mossend - STJ 6S97 02.10 MX STJ - Mossend 6S78 19.05 SX STJ - Mossend Route 5. Mossend - Dover, some trains run ECML, but I think these ran part way WCML. 4M77 15.38 SX Bathgate - Bescot 6M53 17.16 SX Bathgate - Luton (called Warrington Arpley) 4S64 22.00 SX Bescot - Bathgate 6O56 15.32 SX Dundee - Dover (via Carlisle, SO terminate Bescot) 4S87 19.43 SX Luton - Bathgate (via Warrington) 4M38 20.55 SX Mossend - Willesden 4S48 21.56 SX Willesden - Mossend 6O38 17.14 SX Workington - Dover Although I did not visit the NW that often as a TOPS clerk on BR I did enquiries on other parts of BR out of interest, and recall that slow freight traffic tended to be diverted away from the WCML over Shap, with some via the Settle and Carlisle. As the traditional vacuum braked wagon load network contracted up to April 1983 there were fewer and fewer unfitted wagons in revenue service, I am pretty sure that at the end there was a daily class 9 partly vac fitted service each way along the Cumbrian coast to sweep up the odd slow or unfitted vehicles passing between Warrington - Workington - Carlisle (and reverse). cheers

Sorry I am a bit late to this thread. As already mentioned most trains were either fully vac braked, or air braked by this time, a mixed freight with a brake van was getting rare. The traditional vacuum braked wagon load network lasted until the early 1980s, being gradually succeeded by the introduction of the Speedlink network, (most of which were timed at 60 mph running class 6). I think the vacuum braked network was finally closed in April 1983, the last traffics being things like cement in presflos, clay in clayfits to Scotland, scrap in MCVS, some government stores/explosives in VEV vanwides and SOV pipe wagons, and domestic coal traffic in MCV/MXV/HTVs). The vac braked clay to Scotland went over to an interesting selection of air braked types like the PBA clay tigers, PNAs etc. I made a few trips to the North West in the early 1980s, mostly to Warrington, but here is a train passing Lancaster in 1984. No. 85026 passes Lancaster northbound (?) with a train of tube wagons, 10/7/84. I took more at Warrington, here is one from my Flickr collection, 86004 heads north through Warrington Bank Quay with a short vacuum braked service, a highfit, then probably VEV or VMV vanwides, and perhaps a couple of vac braked coil carriers at the rear? 23/3/82. cheers

There is a lot of good advice already on here, and I would agree that getting hold of a track plan booklet, or two, would be a good idea. Choose a smaller plan you like the look of then you can let it grow into the space you have. One plan from C J Freezers '60 Plans for Small Railways' comes to mind. Plan No.20s is drawn for only 6' x 4' for a single circuit dock layout system which has a number of short sidings spread around. With the space you have available you could recreate something more ambitious with two circuits. One outer circuit could have a couple of short passenger stations with a couple of sidings to stable stock or DMUs. A separate inner circuit easier to reach could be principally to serve the various freight sidings which you can shunt wagons, a connection between the two circuits would allow locos to access the loco shed/siding. A small yard acting as a scenic fiddle yard would give someone the chance to indulge in shunting while two trains circle round. Good luck Cheers

The Ilfracombe Railway was originally built as a light railway, and remained so until 1887. The Ilfracombe Goods 0-6-0 tender engines were built by Beyer Peacock to their standard light 0-6-0 design, which was why they were found suitable for later use on other light railways. Barnstaple Junction to Ilfracombe is about 15 miles, and with steep gradients, so the additional water capacity of a tender engine would be useful. cheers

That looks a lot of fun, you have certainly captured the prototypes. At exhibitions I sometimes come across a couple of Lego built layouts, they always attract plenty of attention. Well done cheers

Have you had a look through Flickr? A quick browse found 43164 at Leeds in 8/3/86 43166 at Blackwell 10/8/85 cheers

Like Rugd1022 I think I would like to concentrate on railway locations with family connections. Some of the places I knew but after they were in decline, or closed. I think a 24 exposure film, used wisely, would do for each day out. 1. Make trips again with my dad in the mid 1960s, I would pay more attention to the Western Region hydraulics at work in Devon. We might fit in a trip to Waterloo to catch some of the steam I just about remember, and I might bump into Rugd1022. 2. Spend some time with my grandad when he was a platform inspector at Exeter Central in the early 1960s. Also maybe ask him which of the signal boxes he had worked in the past were most interesting in case I had the chance for another day out. I am sure he could arrange for a proper shed visit to Exmouth Junction. 3. Visit my great great grandma and see what a LSWR railway crossing keepers life was like in the late 1800s, perhaps include a train trip to Sidmouth. 4. Some of my mothers side of the family hailed from the Teign Valley. The Teign Valley line closed before I was born, so perhaps a trip along the line riding with the guard of one of the goods trains, stopping at various stations and quarries along the way. It would have to be before WWII before traffic tailed off. cheers

Sew Much More on the pedestrianised part of Bank Street in Teignmouth sells a varying selection of 2nd hand model railway items including coaches and wagons, and some buildings and scenic items and model buses. There is also a selection of 2nd hand railway books. The items are sold to raise funds for the Totnes Station group on the South Devon Railway. cheers

I have no idea when the term was first adopted, but there must have been numerous loco classes that were intended for mixed traffic use built in the late C19th. Locomotives of the LSWR by D L Bradley describes the A12 'Jubilee' 0-4-2s of 1887. The LSWR did not have many heavy freight trains. But did have many branch pick-up freight services, for which a large 0-6-0 was not required. The Jubilees were designed for secondary main line goods and passenger services, and handled the fast goods services to and from Southampton and the West of England. I would have thought that the later smaller LSWR 4-4-0 classes were considered to be for mixed traffic including the K10 4-4-0 'Small Hoppers', and L11 4-4-0 'Large Hoppers', particularly in the western part of the LSWR. cheers

If I understand it correctly the LSWR operated trains to the joint station and it still retained a service to the old terminus at Chard Town. This was not viable so in 1916 the LSWR and GWR had discussions about the situation. The GWR agreed to work the whole branch to Chard Junction. Chard Town (the LSWR station) closed on 30th Dec 1916, as did the spur platform which was adjacent on the line to Chard Joint. From 1st Jan 1917 the GWR operated from Chard Joint to Chard Junction, initially with a separate set of coaches, but after a while it was worked as an extension of the GWR Taunton to Chard service. I assume, (dangerous I know), that from 1917 the LSWR, and then SR, only worked goods services from Chard Junction to Chard Town (goods), and Chard Central (as the Joint station had been renamed). Various SR classes were authorised to work as far as Chard Central. The SR did work a very occasional excursion service to/from Chard in the late 1930. Edit - Reading in another couple of books it would seem that the GWR (and then WR) worked all services along the line from 1916 onwards. The exception was summer 1938 when the SR worked summer Sunday services (there was no Sunday service in that time). There was a list of SR loco classes permitted to work to Chard Central. In 1964 the line from Taunton to Chard Central closed. So until final closure in 1966 remaining freight traffic at Chard Town (goods) and Chard Central was worked by Yeovil Junction crews from the Chard Junction end. cheers

For a small line the history is quite complicated. I have the book 'Working the Chard Branch' by D Phillips and R Eaton-Lacey which is very interesting. The LSWR opened a branch from Chard Junction to Chard Town in 1863. The Bristol and Exeter broad gauge branch from Taunton to Chard opened in 1866. Chard Joint station was half a mile north of the LSWR Chard Town. To reach it LSWR trains backed out of Chard Town then carried on northwards. At Chard Joint the LSWR used the south end bay. The GWR took over the B&E in 1876, and the Chard branch was converted to standard gauge in 1891. From 1896 the LSWR station at Chard Town came under control of the GWR and in 1916 the former LSWR station closed ,but was retained as a goods depot. GWR trains then worked right through to Chard Junction where the platform was separate from the main lines. cheers

I enjoyed the show, and it was good to see the selection of Speedlink wagonry once more., and thanks for taking the time to chat about the layout, cheers

I was one who stopped by to say hello, having not seen this thread before this morning. We chatted about your Ruston shunter among other things. I enjoyed St Oswalds, and thought the whole show was good. Thanks Cheers

This is an interesting thread, with a lot of useful replies. The three main constituent parts of the SR each had their own characteristics and requirements, so their loco fleets had evolved differently. The SECR had always been short of money, so even the main lines were not of the highest standard and had weight restrictions. The D and E class 4-4-0s only weighed just over 50 tons (tender excluded). It was some years after the grouping before the bridges had been strengthened to take heavier locos. There was also the Tonbridge to Hastings route with a restricted loading gauge that prohibited many classes of loco and stock. London to Brighton is about 50 miles, so for the LBSCR tank engines had enough coal and water capacity to work many services, and the few tender locos did not require large tenders. Hence the turntables on that line did not need to be long. The LSWR had longer main line runs, to Bournemouth and Weymouth, Salisbury and Exeter. They required larger rugged locos and tenders with a larger coal and water capacity. Many of the larger heavier locos were as a consequence banned from working west of Exeter. This meant that the three different loco fleets were not initially easily interchanged between areas once the Southern Railway had been created. The ongoing electrification schemes meant that the SR built almost no new tank locos (the ill-fated 'River' tanks were an exception). This meant that many tank locos originally built for London suburban services were displaced, and many found themselves far from home. Therefore on the LSWR many of the O2s found work on branch lines in the West Country, and Isle of Wight (where they were modified with larger bunkers). Many M7s also worked in the South West. The weight and curvature restrictions of the Lyme Regis branch meant a longer life for a few Adams Radial 4-4-2Ts after several other classes including Terriers, O2s, and LBSCR D1s were found wanting. Then there were the three Beattie 2-4-0WT Well Tanks that worked the Wenfordbridge branch. No doubt also on the SECR and LBSCR tanks locos from the London area later worked further out from the capital. cheers

There is separate road access to the Youth Hostel under the line at the east end of the station, so I agree that lack of a footbridge is not the end of the world. The station could also function quite well enough without the buffet, shop, restored booking office, and museum. The presence of those things does however make visiting Okehampton a more pleasant experience, I do hope the footbridge can be restored. cheers

I don't know about any other structural issues with the footbridge. I agree that a footbridge without a roof still does the job, but to some extent Okehampton Station is a destination in its own right. On the main platform 3 is the Bulleid Buffet, and the DRA have their shop. The former ticket office has been retained as a heritage display. Over the footbridge on platform 1/2 is the DRA museum. Also the former goods shed is now in use as a Youth Hostel. The station itself is the starting point for a number of walks, and cyclists use it to and from the Granite Way. Hence I think there is more chance that the footbridge roof will be restored in some form. cheers

The Dartmoor Railway Association are still involved at Okehampton Station, there are some details of the incident on their website. Okehampton station is therefore something of a hybrid station, part National Rail, part heritage. Platforms 1 and 2 are currently closed, with no access to the museum rooms. Since the footbridge is the link from platform 3 where the DRA have their shop in the main station building I suspect replacement of the roof is more likely to happen than might be the case in many other locations. cheers

Yes I realised once I typed that. South West, and West Country are somewhat open to interpretation, while the Western Region West of England Division extended from Penzance to Barnt Green! cheers

Many thanks for all the replies, very interesting. I guess I was aware of the existence of diesel hydraulic shunting locos, but had never given them much thought before. I now realise there were several different types. North British 0-4-0dh D2700 - D2707 200hp from 1953 North British 0-4-0dh D2708 - D2780 225hp from 1957 North British 0-4-0dh D2900 - D2910 330hp from 1958 Yorkshire Class 02 0-4-0dh D2850 - D2869 from 1960. The class 14 D9500 - D9555 entered service from 1964, but none of them worked in the West Country as far as I know, despite the WR having taken over former SR lines west of Salisbury which brought many hydraulics onto former SR territory. By early 1960 the Western Region dieselisation of the West Country was proceeding with 34 main line diesels in traffic at Laira by the end of January 1960. These were the 14 pilot scheme locos, and 20 more from the production series, numbers being D600-D604, D800-D815, and D6300-D6312. At that date there was still plenty of traditional railway shunting work required, Penzance Truro St Blazey and Laira sheds would have had quite a few shunting duties between them, but no diesel hydraulic shunters despite there being several classes that could have been used. cheers

You have joined two sentences together there, one where I agreed that I was not considering class 14s as shunting locos in the traditional sense. I then postulated that there would not have been much requirement for the small diesel hydraulic shunters in the early days of dieselisation, as built by North British in 1957. The class 14s did not appear until seven years later, in 1964, by which time they were already obsolete, and in any case were never expected to shunt in yards or locations with tight curves. cheers

The map section that covers Exeter and the Exmouth branch does not show the halts at Mount Pleasant Road, Whipton Bridge, and Lions Holt, which all opened in January 1906, so it must have been drawn earlier than that. Edit - and the same section of map shows that the Budleigh Salterton Railway had been extended to Exmouth, the extension opened in June 1903. So the map appears to date from between June 1903 and January 1906. Any other offers? Second edit! - The map shows Bere Alston to Callington branch, which opened in March 1908. I now wonder if the halts in the Exeter area opened in 1906, (and others in 1907 and 1908) are not shown on the map, which must date after March 1908. cheers

Yes, I did think about the Class 14s, but you are right that I was really thinking about shunting locos in the traditional sense. There would not have been a requirement for very many small shunters in the early stages of the dieselisation, but Laira could perhaps have found work for a few in the docks rather than Class 03s. cheers

When the decision was taken to trial diesel hydraulics on the Western Region as part of the Modernisation Plan were there ever any diesel hydraulic shunting locomotives allocated to the Western Region? North British built 0-4-0dh shunting locos in 1957, later numbered D2708-D2780. They seem to have been mostly in Scotland, which is logical keeping them near where they were constructed. I am not aware that any came to the Western Region, but why not? On the other hand since diesel electric shunting locos had already proved themselves why build a diesel hydraulic shunter? cheers

Todays lunchtime arrival at Teignmouth was FRISIAN RIVER. FRISIAN RIVER alongside at Teignmouth shortly after arrival from Erith. Unloading had already commenced, though I do not know what the load was, (another forum suggested meal from ADM Erith). cheers