Karhedron

Which suggests you can use either, but Express would be more likely. I might have to go and edit Wikipedia as that is not really true. ;) Dairies built their depots wherever there was adequate production to meet their needs and connected their depots to whichever railway company happened to be operating in the area. Since most parts of the UK were the domain of a single railway company, the dairies were obliged to do business with whoever owned the nearest lines in most cases. A few traffic flows changed hands over the years such as the IMS flow from Dorrington but this was very much the exception to the rule. United Dairies was actually the biggest user of the GWR and also had more tanks constructed at Swindon than anywhere else (although don't ask me for exact numbers as I will have to trawl my notes for that ;) ).

The GWR had lots of United Dairies tanks with flows from Whitland, Carmarthen, Totnes, Marshfield, Wootton Basset, Hemyock, Moreton-in-Marsh, St Erth and Wood Lane. They did have some Express Dairies too but Express was more prominent on the SR and LMS. Also, there never were any 4-wheeled Express Dairies tanks. Express did not start using milk tanks until the introduction of the 6-wheelers. Only United Dairies, Nestle and CWS used 4-wheelers IIRC. They were all rebuilt as 6-wheelers by the late 1930s due to the poor running characteristics of the 4-wheeled chassis at speed.

Here is the prototype at Lostwithiel. As you can see, the Hornby model is just a reliveried oil tanker so is not particularly accurate but it looks quite smart.

The Ecton creamery was United Dairies rather than Express but we can probably extrapolate reasonably well what might have happened. Let's imagine that in the early 30s, United expanded the dairy rather than closing it. Ecton was only dispatching about 4000 gallons of milk per day to London so you would need to get it above 10,000 to be worthwhile. This would have had a knock-on effect in that Express might not have opened their Rowsley depot (which took a lot of the milk that had formerly gone to Ecton). Now instead of 2 x 2000 gallon tanks per day, we would be talking 3-4 3000 gallon tankers which might have been enough to keep the line open. There were a couple of occasions when milk traffic might have ceased, I don't know how the efficiency of the narrow gauge transporter wagons would have held up during the manpower shortages in WW2 but if we are being generous, the traffic might well have survived into the BR-era. It would certainly have finished in the mid-60s when BR and the MMB signed the "Western agreement" which ended milk traffic into London on the MR and ER and concentrated traffic on the SR and WR.

Fascinating, I must have missed this post the first time around as I have only just found out about this flow. I don't suppose you know of any photographs by any chance?

Here is is, just on the western side of Bog Goods yard.

In an amazing stroke of luck, I have found it. It was located on Currock Road, just by the bend, more or less where Topps Tiles is now. This is right by the line so is it certainly plausible that it had a siding (although this particular map does not show the lines unfortunately). Now I wonder if I can find any more photographs.

Ah slightly more info here. There definitely was a Nestle factory in Carlisle itself in the 1940s (and possibly going back further). One Mr Edward Farish used to work there and keep the boilers running. The photos below show they definitely handled dairy traffic. Maybe Carlisle library should be my next port of call. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-31130822

Opening in 1962 would be too late for the article in question (1950s). Still, thanks for sharing as that does imply there was another Nestle facility in Carlisle at one point. I think this earlier one was involved in the dispatch of fresh milk rather than making processed products.

Just for a bit extra context I was read that the Carlisle - Willesden milk train was made up of tanks from Express Dairy at Appleby, MMB at Aspatria and tanks from Nestle Siding at Carlisle. The first two I am familiar with but the only Nestle factory I have been able to find in the Carlisle area is the current one at Dalston. I was wondering if there had been a previous site nearer the city centre.

I have found references to "Nestle Siding" at Carlisle. The nearest Nestle plant I can find now is at Dalston but the article implies the company once had a siding near the station. Can anyone shed any light on this please?

That is always the way. 😄 I was hoping it would be out in time for Christmas but to be honest, I think that might be a bit tight as it has to be set out first, then sent to the printers.

The book is finished. It is all in the hands of Wild Swan now. 🤞

This site says that Billingshurst lost its goods service in 1964 but the siding to the dairy remained open a little longer. Only one source so I would not take it as gospel without corroboration but it seems plausible. The mid-60s were the time when BR and the MMB signed the "Western Agreement" which consolidated milk traffic into London on 3 main routes starting from Whitland, Torrington and Penzance. If Billingshurst was still dispatching by rail into the 60s, this is the time I would have expected the traffic to cease. https://www.wisboroughgreen.org/project/railway-services/

I am not sure about that. Both the lorries visible in the photo are flatbeds loaded with churns which implies local collection to me. If the milk was going to London by road, I would have expected to see tanker lorries. I would be surprised if Express stopped using rail tankers to take the milk to London and moved it in churns by road instead. Then again, stranger things have happened. A look through the working timetables would probably be necessary to work out when Billingshurst ceased sending milk by rail.

What is happening here is that churns are being collected from the surrounding area by lorry and delivered to the dairy. Here it is chilled and piped into the tanks for dispatch to London. You can see Billingshurst in operation here. https://www.yfanefa.com/record/24288

Billingshurst was indeed the first country creamery that Express constructed. The only creamery they owned prior to that was Faringdon which had been built independently and then taken over. Milk tanks from Billingshurst initially ran to Cricklewood and later some traffic ran to the Bollo Lane creamery at South Acton. Tanks ran behind the Portsmouth - Victoria train as far as East Croydon. Here they were consolidated with other tanks and worked via the West London Line. Kensington Olympia was mainly a marshalling point with tanks being tripped from here to the bottling plants. The tanks in that photo are LMS examples, part of the first batch of 6-wheelers built in 1931 to diagram 1994. Yes, it was a sort of sunshade. As you say, they fell out of fashion which probably gives you an idea of how effective they were.

Close. If I ever change my handle, I will consider that one instead. 😄 There is a photo of the loading shed in my forthcoming book on milk traffic. Unfortunately I cannot post it here for copyright reasons. It was a fairly plain brick building with a pitched corrugated roof. The roof extended on the road side to form a canopy under which lorries were unloaded. Basically your assumptions in your earlier posts are pretty much spot-on.

I am wondering if that is a franken-tanker. I agree it looks like a GWR/BR underframe but the four tanks saddles were more usual on LMS tanks. I don't have photos to hand of the later GWR/BR tank diagrams so it could be late example just prior to the introduction of roller bearings. 30X5 gives some possibilities. 3055 or 3075 - GWR/BR diagram O56 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4. It would also have a central ladder so I think we can rule these out 3005, 3015, 3035, 3045 - GWR/BR diagram O57 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4 but the end ladder is correct 3025 - GWR diagram O58 twin tank. Definitely not one of these 3065 - GWR/BR diagram O60 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4 but the end ladder is correct So the frame at least is probably a GWR O57 or O60. The O60s I have seen all had roller bearings so I would lean towards thinking this is an O57 so 3005, 3015, 3035 or 3045. The 4 tanks saddles are a puzzler but may not be an original feature. As you say, departmental use and preserved tankers may have varied from their original. Apart from the saddles, it is a match for an O57.

On the face of it, the LMS D1994 would look like an ideal prototype to model. Unfortunately checking the actual photos shows a lot of differences between different examples. The LMS built a large number of tanks to nominally just a few diagrams but I have seen photos of D.1994s with more differences than between a GWR diagram O39 and O42.

Actually I am not sure it is correct. W1954 was originally painted in Aplin and Barret's own livery. Aplin and Barret were not taken over until 1960 by which time Unigate had already been formed so it is unlikely that W1954 would have been fitted with "United Dairies" plates that were already obsolete. More likely it would have been fitted with "Unigate Creameries" plates like the example below. Of course if anyone has photos to the contrary I would be very interested to see them.

Yes, all the 4-wheelers had been rebuilt as 6-wheelers by 1937 so they lasted less than 10 years in original condition. "Rebuilt" may be slightly misleading as believe the tanks were transferred to entirely new 6-wheeled chassis. The 6-wheeled tanks outnumbered the 4-wheeled by about 10:1 and lasted from 1931 to 1980 so are probably a better target in the first instance.

Aaargh, my eyes! 😲 That is the most horrible mix of clashing liveries I can imagine. Why would you sell all those together? Only the silver version would have been seen behind a Western as the others are pre-nationalisation liveries. The IMS tank ran the Dorrington - Marylebone route, the West Park Dairy take worked the Market Lavington - Cricklewood route and never the twain did meet. I know they say there is a prototype for for everything but even in preservation, there isn't a prototype for that hodgepodge.

Very nice photo, thanks for sharing. A bit of a rarity in showing a Mk1 full brake. Milk trains usually ran with pre-nationalisation brake vehicles and I have only seen Mk1 vehicles used a handful of times.

Mainly yes. There were a few odd exceptions to that rule in areas where supply could fluctuate seasonally. A good example of this was Marshfields between Cardiff and Newport (already mentioned earlier as a place where tanks were loaded by lorry on a siding as the dairy was up the road from the station). Marshfields was a bottling plant for the local area with excess production being dispatched to London. However it was not unknown for Marshfields to "run dry" in which case it would receive milk inwards from further west for local consumption. That is a pretty decent summary. Churns on the railways were phased out well before churn collection ended from farms. Most churn traffic ended in the early 60s. The last example I have been able to find was cream being dispatched in churns from CWS Stewarts Lane to the resort towns on the Isle of Thanet in about 1966. These were carried in the guard's compartment of the EMUs.