Agenoria Models

[Andy Y]

Rather than consider the £50,000 valuation a speculative assessment I think it's fair to read the Facebook post in full which I took to be a pragmatic view that it would be unlikely the value of the elements could be realised:

 

Who would be able to afford to buy it.

I have nearly 15k in stock, 63 kits, if you said £250 per kit, which realisticly is a very good price for a developed kit, but that's still another 15k. If you then wanted all the built up models for the stand at say £500 a model, again not an unreasonable price there is at least another 20k.

Who would pay 50k for it? 

If someone has 50k lying around and wants it. Then yes it's could be up for sale.

[Adrian]

Rather than consider the £50,000 valuation a speculative assessment I think it's fair to read the Facebook post in full which I took to be a pragmatic view that it would be unlikely the value of the elements could be realised:

 

Rather than a pragmatic view I would suggest it was a rather optimistic view. In a similar way it happens in the housing market there is often a marked difference in the sellers valuation of their property value and a prospective purchaser's idea of the value. Maybe you can strike lucky with finding the one person for whom the property fits and is willing to pay the price for it, but more often than not the seller has to reduce their expectation to secure a sale. 

[LaScala]

Rather than a pragmatic view I would suggest it was a rather optimistic view. In a similar way it happens in the housing market there is often a marked difference in the sellers valuation of their property value and a prospective purchaser's idea of the value. Maybe you can strike lucky with finding the one person for whom the property fits and is willing to pay the price for it, but more often than not the seller has to reduce their expectation to secure a sale. 

A speculative price is not usually pitched by a vendor who also simultaneously states he can't make sales!

[Dava]

If you are going to grow your sales in a declining kit market then you have to build customer's confidence that they can actually complete the kit they might want to buy.Most kit producers don't.

 

Connoisseur (Jim McG) does this very well, lots of people have bought his Y7 etc. Lots of us have boxes of unmade kits and don't want any more!

 

I would not buy an ACE kit, I am holding on the Slaters, £320 for an Agenoria is a lot when an rtr is less and I can scratch build for 25% of the kit cost. I would not buy a kit making business. You can do a microbrewery for £50k! Much more fun.Invite your friends to the new product development!

 

Dava

[Kenton]

 

Rather than consider the £50,000 valuation a speculative assessment I think it's fair to read the Facebook post in full which I took to be a pragmatic view that it would be unlikely the value of the elements could be realised:

 

Pragmatic is not a word I would have used and as indicated above a very brief and isolated assessment on Facebook is not a particularly good sales pitch or platform.

 

But a prospective seller has to start with a figure (preferably supported by a clear and supported professional valuation) and then indicate that this is just the start of a negotiated settlement).

 

I cannot yet make out if this business is actually up for sale, or the owner is just announcing that there will be no further development and appearance at shows. (ie. is retiring further into his shell) In my opinion as indicated in a previous post there is a reason why no sales are made at shows. It has nothing to do with no one in the market for kits, nothing to do with the shows and probably not much to do with the kits themselves (if they were that bad we would not be bemoaning their potential loss to the modelling community) My opinion is the lack of interest at shows is down to the lack of engagement - I do expect that if I show an interest in a model that the person behind the stand at least tries to broaden my knowledge of a model and even attempts to sell me something. Otherwise - what is the point of being there - the conclusion now reached by the owner.

 

Shows are a marketing platform - sales at the show are a by product. What other forms of marketing are there - paid advertising in a magazine, a really good professional website that somehow attracts visitors, a build article written for a magazine or on a forum RMWeb (both are risky as they will highlight the flaws in the kit - and hopefully their resolution *) and the somewhat dwindling word of mouth. If a potential modeller doesn't know about a kit it isn't going to sell.

 

* An opportunity for the kit designer/seller to respond to the criticism / build issues and to evolve the kit and advance the builder's knowledge. We have seen this here on RMWeb by the better (best) kit designers. What more encouragement to return to buy another kit can you have than being assisted through the build by the person who has done it before and designed it?

Edited June 16, 2015 by Kenton

[bbishop]

The problem I have is that I model the Hull & Barnsley Railway c.1908.  

Dave

Bill Ascough (ACE) is developing the LCDR six coupled tank (T class), that was the basis of the H&B class. I handled the test model yesterday and spoke to the builder, who said it was easy to construct. Bill has to correct some howling errors in the kit but there is a decent thickness of brass. I didn't think much of the boiler fittings, a solid whitemetal chimney and a resin dome (not much cop for the SECR livery). But I can't remember if the model was based on the 1879 pair (from which I think the H&B locos were developed) or the later 1893 locos. I can check on progress.

 

Bill Bishop

[kirtleypete]

Speaking as someone who runs a stand but also likes shopping (!) you do have to be a bit carful, Kenton....some people are put off if the trader is too pushy. Most modellers know what they are looking at and if they want to know about it they'll ask. I certainly feel like that when i'm looking at a stand. Usually when I'm trading it's possible to tell if the person needs help or not or just wants leaving alone. 

 

Peter KIRTLEY MODEL BUILDINGS

[JeffP]

Bill isn't ACE, he's Ace Model Products.........an entirely different company.

[Kenton]

 

Speaking as someone who runs a stand but also likes shopping (!) you do have to be a bit carful, Kenton....some people are put off if the trader is too pushy. Most modellers know what they are looking at and if they want to know about it they'll ask. I certainly feel like that when i'm looking at a stand. Usually when I'm trading it's possible to tell if the person needs help or not or just wants leaving alone. 

 

Peter KIRTLEY MODEL BUILDINGS

Sure, no one likes hard sell but would estimate (generalisation warning) that most of the visitors at shows, even specialist shows, are more shy than is given credit for. They do not all turn up with a shopping list, or have issues/interests to pick over with the kit manufacturer. If I am looking at a stand I like to ask about a new kit and actually handle the example. But as often as not I know more about how to build it than the prototype and having shown that vague interest I do expect some mutual interest in my potential custom. There might be a fine line between scaring me away and capturing the sale. I may have no interest (or cash) at that instant of buying but I will remember the friendly approach and get an impression from the "seller" if they are easy to contact in the future. They may just look at me and think "time waster" or "ignorant twit" but when someone later asks me to build one of the kits or if I would buy one to build.

 

As said above, there are plenty of kit manufacturer's who are very approachable and (sometimes it feels like you need to book an appointment - or kick a few ankles - to get to the front of the stand) when you know you are welcome (even as a "time wasting ignorant twit" makes all the difference where the cash goes.

[Horsetan]

.....Bill has to correct some howling errors in the kit ....

 

Any plans to correct errors in his other kits?

[Donw]

A rather agree with those who feel that time having moved on the market has changed. The period of great growth in 0 gauge is over I think. A lot of modellers weaned on 4mm kits moved up to 0 and wanted the same or better. These people have built the bulk of what they want. Many now retired I splashing out on high price high quality RTR they could build them but probably feel that have built enough. A lot of those moving up to 0 gauge now are younger probably ex 00 rather than Em OR p4 and used to buying rtr probably a lot are diesel age modellers. The has been a lot lees scratch and kit building of diesels and a lot more detailing of commercial models. So perhaps there just isn't so much market for 0 gauge steam engine kits.

Additionally Industrial  modelling doesn't usually go hand in hand with a large fleet of locos two or three is usually enough. So Ixion HC plus the Peckett coming maybe a Dapol Terrier and perhaps one other like the Ixion MW  that would suit many.

As for me I have two Dukes, A Barnum, Dean Goods, 1501, 517, two Sharpies, to build ( i.e. Kits in stock) plus a have scratchbuilt 73 so the only one I really want now is an Albion 2-4-0 ( Chris of Dragon Models are you listening!) I proabably should have bought a Stella before Finney packed in. but really I do have plenty. I suspect there are many in the same position.

 

Don

[Davey]

Hi Bill,

 

Thanks for that information, very interesting. There were differences between the LCDR and H&BR versions, which I will investigate fully. Either way, the LCDR kit could be a good starting point for a H&BR build. Please do keep me updated on progress.

 

Many thanks.

 

Dave

[Horsetan]

.....should have bought a Stella before Finney packed in.....

 

You can still buy this one:

 

[Donw]

My experience, from York 2015, I was the only person at each stand at the time......

 

Agenoria stand - "Am I able to have  look at the instructions for xxx model? Reply "No, but its easy to build."

 

Connoisseur - "On your website it says that the J50 is a bit more challenging - in what way?". Jim asked me to hand him the box, which was at the front of the stand. The box was opened, and I looked over the instructions and saw the etch frets. An explanation was given of the more complex assembly. The conversation then went on to Jim's wagon and coach kits

 

With a Connoisseur J15 and F5 in the build queue I wasn't able to justify getting the J50 there and then, but I did purchase the wagons.

 

Well apart from anything else I have always found Jim to be a gentleman.

 

Don

[Kenton]

 

Well apart from anything else I have always found Jim to be a gentleman.

 

Don

Cannot disagree with that - and fortunately there are many other who are just as friendly and welcoming in their approach. I wonder if they are all struggling with sales?

[ian@stenochs]

You can still buy this one:

 

But why would you buy a Frankenstine beer when you can get the Real thing?

 

Ian

[JeffP]

My experience, from York 2015, I was the only person at each stand at the time......

 

Agenoria stand - "Am I able to have  look at the instructions for xxx model? Reply "No, but its easy to build."

 

Connoisseur - "On your website it says that the J50 is a bit more challenging - in what way?". Jim asked me to hand him the box, which was at the front of the stand. The box was opened, and I looked over the instructions and saw the etch frets. An explanation was given of the more complex assembly. The conversation then went on to Jim's wagon and coach kits

 

With a Connoisseur J15 and F5 in the build queue I wasn't able to justify getting the J50 there and then, but I did purchase the wagons.

This is life.......some folk find social contact easy, some don't.

 

I've had quite brusque answers to questions about some VERY good kits.

[Horsetan]

.......some folk find social contact easy, some don't....

Just ask Coopercraft.

[Donw]

This is life.......some folk find social contact easy, some don't.

 

I've had quite brusque answers to questions about some VERY good kits.

 

Mr Finney for example who told me off for not knowing that the Barnum had a four slidebar valve gear not the two bar type like the dean goods. (Laurie Griffin sorted out the right sort for me). The kits are pretty good but jumping down a customers throat is not sensible.

Don

[sp1]

Mr Finney for example who told me off for not knowing that the Barnum had a four slidebar valve gear not the two bar type like the dean goods. (Laurie Griffin sorted out the right sort for me). The kits are pretty good but jumping down a customers throat is not sensible.

Don

As my old boss told me 'The customer is always right' Then he added, 'actually they're not, they're usually wrong, but you have to make them think they're right,......

[Horsetan]

Mr Finney for example who told me off for not knowing ....

He was originally a schoolmaster, and didn't suffer fools gladly.

[mike morley]

As my old boss told me 'The customer is always right' Then he added, 'actually they're not, they're usually wrong, but you have to make them think they're right,......

 

One of my former boss's variation on this theme was "The customer is always right - but remember, they are usually idiots"

[Donw]

He was originally a schoolmaster, and didn't suffer fools gladly.

 

We had a lot of them at my school clever devils but batty as hell. Quite a lot of stuff I was taught has been turned upside down since then.

Don

[s_ellinson]

 perhaps the age of the kit builder has passed.

 

 

I work in 4mm and look at the range of RtR that's available and it's something that i couldn't have dreamed of twenty years ago. I (still) model the southern in the thirties and the thought that there would ever be an E4 available RtR is just incredible.

 

BUT...

 

I enjoy building kit and the locomotives that I want to run aren't available, either as RtR or Kit; does anyone make an ex-LC&DR M3? Or an A class? Does anyone even know what they are! I am sure that kit building will continue although as a subgroup of a niche hobby. however, i can see the potential for a maufacturer of unusual prototypes to struggle with sales. Good customer servie and very active promotion is perhaps the only solution.

[s_ellinson]

Bill Ascough (ACE) is developing the LCDR six coupled tank (T class), that was the basis of the H&B class. I handled the test model yesterday and spoke to the builder, who said it was easy to construct. Bill has to correct some howling errors in the kit but there is a decent thickness of brass. I didn't think much of the boiler fittings, a solid whitemetal chimney and a resin dome (not much cop for the SECR livery). But I can't remember if the model was based on the 1879 pair (from which I think the H&B locos were developed) or the later 1893 locos. I can check on progress.

 

Bill Bishop

I'm just finishing a Q kit's 4mm version of this. I look forward to an ACE 4mm version, because the Q kits loco is a shocker. Proper kitbuilding; none of this "it goes together" rubbish.

Edited June 17, 2015 by s_ellinson