New Layout Plan for your comments: Queenborough-Sheerness

[Joseph_Pestell]

RM July 1986 Plan of the Month: Sheerness Dockyard. Would that be the one?

 

Sounds likely.

 

Edit: On second thoughts, no. I think that was based on the old station. At one time, trains ran to the Dockyard and then had to reverse round that curve into the Town Station (or vice versa).

Edited June 18, 2015 by Joseph_Pestell

[Fat Controller]

Not a problem - there was a massive wall separating the main line from the SS yard, at one time. I think a lot of it has since become fencing. I quite fancy creating a very enclosed entrance and exit to their yard, from the memory of a photo of a similar situation at Macclesfield many moons ago. For some reason, that image has stayed with me for decades. I saw something similar today at the side of the K&WVR shed at Haworth (we are staying in the area for a few weeks). I shall have to artistically make it up!

I thought the wall was what separated the Dockyard from Sheerness Steel and the branch? There was some traffic 'through the wall' in the late 1990s/ early 2000s; baled pulp in bogie Ferryvans, destined for Cumbria (IIRC)

[eastwestdivide]

RM July 1986 Plan of the Month: Sheerness Dockyard. Would that be the one?

There was another called Rushenden Metals, by Hull MRS, mentioned on here : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/11590-ridham-queenborough-trips-2010-2014/

possibly late 80s/early 90s.

 

Also on the old forum here (scroll down a bit):

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[Mike Storey]

Sounds likely.

 

Edit: On second thoughts, no. I think that was based on the old station. At one time, trains ran to the Dockyard and then had to reverse round that curve into the Town Station (or vice versa).

 

Thanks Joseph and Pete - I remember that plan. The original Town station was in the dockyard, more or less alongside it. The Sheerness-on-Sea station replaced it some decades later.

[Mike Storey]

I thought the wall was what separated the Dockyard from Sheerness Steel and the branch? There was some traffic 'through the wall' in the late 1990s/ early 2000s; baled pulp in bogie Ferryvans, destined for Cumbria (IIRC)

 

That was on the Westminster Straight. Another wall continued around the curve towards the station, but it was falling to bits even in the '80's. The dockyard branch was in regular use in the early '80's, for timber imported from Scandinavia, some MOD traffic (but most came in via Ridham, during the Falklands war - spent ammo, bent land rovers etc.) and occasional trials of other  loads. There was even a trial by a competitor to MAT to bring Toyota vans in direct off the ship into the dockyard and then on to flats, but even that traffic ended up with MAT and was taken to their compound towards Queenborough for loading on to trains there. This was additional to imported Vauxhall Cavaliers from Belgium and various Peugeots, mostly going to Stranraer or Bathgate.

 

The difference in operations now is quite significant - after re-modelling and re-signalling, the Westminster Straight is now bi-directional and the link from the middle road at Sheerness was no longer used for reversing SS or dockyard traffic into their yard, so was removed. Likewise at Queenborough, the layout has been significantly remodelled. The "down" platform is now bi-di and the crossover from the yard to the "Up" platform has been removed, as have the sand drags. Signalling is all now single lens, multi-coloured LED, and their positions have changed. The sidings layout has been altered significantly, including the route in to the station yard.

 

So all my efforts are having to be based on the few photos I took in the '80's (most of which are useless) and more I took in the '90's and then in 2010, plus others available in books and a few on the web. Memory will have to fill in the many gaps! So if any of you have any pics in that area from the early '80's or late '70's, I would be extremely grateful!

[Mike Storey]

There was another called Rushenden Metals, by Hull MRS, mentioned on here : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/11590-ridham-queenborough-trips-2010-2014/

possibly late 80s/early 90s.

 

Also on the old forum here (scroll down a bit):

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

I remember that well - a very impressive model, and gave a good impression of the site just to the West of where my plan begins. I wish I had the room to include it.

[Mike Storey]

Dear All

 

I am very grateful for all the comments made so far and have made several attempts to accommodate most of them. Please find the new, improved version, one view showing only the parts meant to be "visible" for simplicity, and the other showing all the storage and fiddle yards and connections.

 

 

 

 

In summary,

 

a) Sheerness-on-Sea has been moved to an island plinth, with adequate room either side to access all parts of the layout, and a minimum radius maintained in the visible lines

 

b ) the EMU sidings approach has been simplified to allow compression of that and the freight exchange sidings (fiddle yard)

 

c) the Sheerness Steel exchange sidings have been expanded and lengthened to become more flexible

 

d) all the sidings are now much more accessible than before

 

e) a loco stabling area has been added - small as only 5 locos would normally be needed in any operating session.

 

I need to refine parts of it but this look like the best compromise. Again, any comments, criticisms or suggestions you have will be very welcome. I would also be grateful for suggestions as to the optimum number of DCC bus sections and boosters I should include (all my EMU's and locos will be sound equipped).

 

many thanks

 

Mike

[mightbe]

It seems the space between visible and scenic tracks is still much too small. Even if you planned the backdrop (or a vertical wall) to run between the two tracks in the upper left corner there wouldn't been enough room--the trains would likely rub the backscene, especially coaches. The same for the upper right corner.

 

I'm also concerned about the lack of operational potential--it seems most trains will simply move about in block formations. I don't know what you fancy operations-wise but the movements seem quite limited. 

 

If you look at the layout of the Steel Works area (wonderfully drawn as of 2006 by David Glasspool for the Kentrail website http://www.kentrail.org.uk/sheerness%20steel.htm)..

 

 

..you will see how different your proposal and the prototype are in layout. Modelling the exchange sidings visibly and more or less as they are would make a huge difference in the operational potential of your layout.

 

In my mind a VERY interesting layout can be made out of just the station and steel works, from the southern junction. The layout could take on an E shape, with the horizontal strokes representing the works (with a spur that ends at the backscene to represent the docks area), the station, and the fiddle yard. Even with severe simplification the works area would make a fabulous operational and scenic feature. To boot all the curves are in the right directions and in the right places so there would only be minimal distortion.

 

It does remove Queenborough and the continuous run however. If you had the space you could still include Queensborough by putting it on the bottom of the E and moving the fiddle yard around to the right wall. Again that option undercuts the continuous run (not sure how important that is to you though). On the up-side, a single-ended fiddle yard would take up less space. I will perhaps play with the design a little.

 

Of course it is your layout so the above need not be taken as gospel.

 

EDIT: Rough sketch of my idea. Had to leave out some bits due to hitting the 50 piece limit but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what's missing. 

 

It has just occurred to me that a single-ended fiddle yard could sit under Sheerness and the East Junction, if you introduce a gentle gradient. That would also let you model Queenborough almost exactly as you were planning before. The general shape would resemble a 6.

 

Quentin

Edited June 19, 2015 by mightbe

[Oldddudders]

Wot, no working Swale liftbridge?

[Guest]

Wot, no working Swale liftbridge?

 

For something built almost entirely from concrete in 1960, I've always thought the bridge rather elegant.

[Mike Storey]

It seems the space between visible and scenic tracks is still much too small. Even if you planned the backdrop (or a vertical wall) to run between the two tracks in the upper left corner there wouldn't been enough room--the trains would likely rub the backscene, especially coaches. The same for the upper right corner.

 

I'm also concerned about the lack of operational potential--it seems most trains will simply move about in block formations. I don't know what you fancy operations-wise but the movements seem quite limited. 

 

If you look at the layout of the Steel Works area (wonderfully drawn as of 2006 by David Glasspool for the Kentrail website http://www.kentrail.org.uk/sheerness%20steel.htm)..

 

Sheerness_Steel_Works (1).jpg

 

..you will see how different your proposal and the prototype are in layout. Modelling the exchange sidings visibly and more or less as they are would make a huge difference in the operational potential of your layout.

 

In my mind a VERY interesting layout can be made out of just the station and steel works, from the southern junction. The layout could take on an E shape, with the horizontal strokes representing the works (with a spur that ends at the backscene to represent the docks area), the station, and the fiddle yard. Even with severe simplification the works area would make a fabulous operational and scenic feature. To boot all the curves are in the right directions and in the right places so there would only be minimal distortion.

 

It does remove Queenborough and the continuous run however. If you had the space you could still include Queensborough by putting it on the bottom of the E and moving the fiddle yard around to the right wall. Again that option undercuts the continuous run (not sure how important that is to you though). On the up-side, a single-ended fiddle yard would take up less space. I will perhaps play with the design a little.

 

Of course it is your layout so the above need not be taken as gospel.

 

EDIT: Rough sketch of my idea. Had to leave out some bits due to hitting the 50 piece limit but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what's missing. 

Sheerness.jpg

 

It has just occurred to me that a single-ended fiddle yard could sit under Sheerness and the East Junction, if you introduce a gentle gradient. That would also let you model Queenborough almost exactly as you were planning before. The general shape would resemble a 6.

 

Quentin

 

Thanks Quentin - you are right about the lack of space between hidden and visible on both the top left and the top right, and I will have to refine that.

 

Thanks for the drawing, which I have seen before but which represents the rationalised layout (you will see the middle road has gone at Sheerness and the East Jn is no longer used. The operations at Sheerness were actually scant in the early '80's - two trips to/from Hoo per day, plus a few a week between Ridham and/or QB Shipbreakers for scrap. All other moves were purely internal, and involved many internal user only wagons, and I knew little about them despite my courtesy visits to their operations team once a month. They don't interest me, but I could see how they might interest someone else. I especially don't want to spend the next five years trying to build a steel works! The very simple representation I have planned adequately caters for the external moves of POA's, BDA's, SPA's etc. plus a few odds and sods like the timber trial trains, by using the link between the SS yard and the main fiddle yard. Apart from the EMU hourly shuttle (which I shall pretend had already increased to half-hourly), two 8 cars ran per day to and from Victoria plus the early morning news van CCT's. That was it.

 

Most operationally interesting is Queenborough, with the cars, engineers' trains, cripples being knocked off, scrap moves into Rushenden, storage of excess wagons from SS Steel, plus the EMU's crossing over there, as opposed to Sheerness. That is where I spent most of my time, as well as at Sittingbourne Woods sidings and Bowaters clay shunts, as Duty Manager, when covering for the Senior Railman Shunter, when he was elsewhere or off sick. Additionally, your new plan reduces visible radii to about 24" which I want to avoid, but thanks for an alternative view all the same! If I had an even bigger space, and had won the lottery, I would include Sittingbourne too.....

Edited June 19, 2015 by Mike Storey

[Mike Storey]

Wot, no working Swale liftbridge?

 

I have always been a disappointment haven't I? 

[eastwestdivide]

... So if any of you have any pics in that area from the early '80's or late '70's, I would be extremely grateful!

Best I can do is three from Sheerness "over the fence"  -  

4-VEP near the steelworks:

 

08216 in use (owned by?) by Sheerness Steel:

 

Modern internal-user wagon in Sheerness Steel:

 

and one at Queenborough-ish, possibly out along to the shipbreakers, I think a Class 306 unit:

 

All from October 1983.

 

I've also got photos of various ancient wagons awaiting their fate in Queenborough shipbreakers, but not really showing any background, and a few of the bogie Sheerness Steel PO wagons taken elsewhere (but there are plenty of photos of them around the place). 

If you'd like higher res versions of any of those posted, PM me and I'll send them over.

[eastwestdivide]

Wot, no working Swale liftbridge?

 

Here in about 1981, with an early jetski thing, and a sailing boat passing under the lifting span.

 

Oh, you meant the model.

[The Stationmaster]

You might find this useful Mike (in case you don't notice it's a PDF and therefore can be enlarged)

 

http://www.signallingnotices.org.uk/scans/2378/2378.pdf

Edited June 19, 2015 by The Stationmaster

[Mike Storey]

Best I can do is three from Sheerness "over the fence"  -  

4-VEP near the steelworks:

N3_0009.jpg

 

08216 in use (owned by?) by Sheerness Steel:

N3_0003.jpg

 

Modern internal-user wagon in Sheerness Steel:

N3_0010 Sheerness Steel wagon.jpg

 

and one at Queenborough-ish, possibly out along to the shipbreakers, I think a Class 306 unit:

N3_0000.jpg

 

All from October 1983.

 

I've also got photos of various ancient wagons awaiting their fate in Queenborough shipbreakers, but not really showing any background, and a few of the bogie Sheerness Steel PO wagons taken elsewhere (but there are plenty of photos of them around the place). 

If you'd like higher res versions of any of those posted, PM me and I'll send them over

Many thanks - certainly bring back some memories! The shot alongside SS reminds me of the park on the other side, which is very useful for the model! The old wall had already been replaced by a new fence I see, in '83. AFAIR, I think even that has since been replaced by a massive security fence thingy, as have many of the old wire fences I remember along the line. We did have problems back in '81/2 with trespass, but mainly at Queenborough, but no major cable or scrap thefts in those days. I am not sure who owns that shunter - Hither Green often lent them one when their own broke down.

[Mike Storey]

You might find this useful Mike (in case you don't notice it's a PDF and therefore can be enlarged)

 

http://www.signallingnotices.org.uk/scans/2378/2378.pdf

 

I don't know how to thank you enough for this Mike! I have a simplified version of this, showing all the SED signalling plans, in an A5 folder, with which all ASM's and Traffic Managers were issued by Division, for when we went out to flag signals or wind points etc. We were supposed to annotate them with the track circuits for our own patch as well, to ensure we understood the locking. But this goes into far more detail. I can also see where I have gone wrong with the track design at QB and at SRA in certain detail, from an uncertain memory. Many thanks indeed. You must have a veritable gold mine of info like this stored at Stationmaster Manor.... Thank you so much for digging this out for me.

 

If I can ever return the favour - for example are you missing any bits of the SED, or if you want the lowdown on why Peter really went off sick that day in 1998 - let me know.

[Judge Dread]

There was another called Rushenden Metals, by Hull MRS, mentioned on here : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/11590-ridham-queenborough-trips-2010-2014/

possibly late 80s/early 90s.

 

Also on the old forum here (scroll down a bit):

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I was a member of the team which built "Rushenden (Metals) Ltd. and I have copies of the photos taken by the then Hull MRS club member Steve Flint now of Railway Modeller fame. I am more than willing to send you copies.

When we did a site visit, the management at Queenborough where more than helpful but they did request we didn't use their name for our layout.

[The Stationmaster]

I don't know how to thank you enough for this Mike! I have a simplified version of this, showing all the SED signalling plans, in an A5 folder, with which all ASM's and Traffic Managers were issued by Division, for when we went out to flag signals or wind points etc. We were supposed to annotate them with the track circuits for our own patch as well, to ensure we understood the locking. But this goes into far more detail. I can also see where I have gone wrong with the track design at QB and at SRA in certain detail, from an uncertain memory. Many thanks indeed. You must have a veritable gold mine of info like this stored at Stationmaster Manor.... Thank you so much for digging this out for me.

 

If I can ever return the favour - for example are you missing any bits of the SED, or if you want the lowdown on why Peter really went off sick that day in 1998 - let me know.

All a matter of knowing where to look and hoping your luck is in - this time it was.  I had a chat with Peter at Railex - he seemed to be having some coupling problems (like seeing them?), and that was in 7mm scale! 

[Mike Storey]

All a matter of knowing where to look and hoping your luck is in - this time it was.  I had a chat with Peter at Railex - he seemed to be having some coupling problems (like seeing them?), and that was in 7mm scale! 

 

Well, drivers never were any good at coupling. Never mind - so long as you admired his trees, he will have been happy.

[Mike Storey]

I was a member of the team which built "Rushenden (Metals) Ltd. and I have copies of the photos taken by the then Hull MRS club member Steve Flint now of Railway Modeller fame. I am more than willing to send you copies.

When we did a site visit, the management at Queenborough where more than helpful but they did request we didn't use their name for our layout.

 

That is most generous - if you have any of Queenborough station or the bridge there at that time, I would be more than grateful. I am particularly having trouble with remembering the station side of the road bridge. I remember a large soil or sewer pipe being there, adjacent to the bridge on the station side. But now there is a concrete pedestrian bridge between the station footbridge and the road bridge, which does not look terribly new. I cannot find any pics which show the situation around 1980. My memory may be deceiving me.

 

Are the pictures scanned or are we talking hard copy? if the latter, I am very happy to pay expenses. 

[hmrspaul]

I have some photos at Sheerness http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/queenboroughsheerness

 

Paul

[RJS1977]

Here in about 1981, with an early jetski thing, and a sailing boat passing under the lifting span.

N32_0013 Kingsferry Bridge.jpg

 

Oh, you meant the model.

 

Just the thing to clear the doorway!

 

Re RM articles - I seem to remember a plan much more recently (i.e. this century!) based on the metals recycling side - I'll have a dig and see what I can find!

[Lyddrail]

Mike,

I don't know if the following pics are of use from 1998?

 

 

 

 

Cheers.

[eastwestdivide]

Going back to that shunter, 08216, BR database at: 

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=D&id=3286&loco=08216

has it as withdrawn by BR in 1980, and eventually scrapped at Barrow Hill in 2001. So evidently it was in private hands at Sheerness when I photographed it.

Other sites/flickr photos indicate it was at the (short-lived) S Yorks railway centre behind Meadowhall at some time.