00-P A track and wheel compromise standard with a lot of potential and practical support

[Andy Reichert]

Thanks for the alternative suggestion, but 00-P will stay with P4 flange ways.

 

This is intended to be a practical standard with easily achievable zero defect operation.

 

Here's a resultant PRO for that

 

UK modellers have the luxury of an enormous range of P4 steam locomotive wheels. These will therefore run rock solid on 00-P when set to the new B-B and still allow virtually any prototype to be modelled, or converted from RTR.

 

Using S4 (true 4mm scale) flange ways would unnecessarily increase the minimum radius and reduce the proven P4 running clearances. So I'm not seeing any point in going there.

 

Andy

[martin_wynne]

Thanks for the alternative suggestion, but 00-P will stay with P4 flange ways.

 

Hi Andy,

 

Presumably therefore you will be modifying your Proto87 models to a non-standard back-to-back, if you want to run them both on the same track? Would they then still run on other Proto87 layouts?

 

For P4 wheels and flangeways on 16.50mm track gauge, the maximum back-to-back is 15.42mm. Yet this is the same figure as the minimum back-to-back for NMRA Proto87.

 

I'm still not entirely convinced that this is a serious topic, and that you are not having some fun with us.

 

Martin.

Edited June 23, 2015 by martin_wynne

[47137]

I realise this is an international forum, and some modellers outside the UK may have very specific objectives.

 

The present options of 00, EM and P4 give us some choice between interoperability, ease of construction and realism, but 00-P doesn't seem to have much of any of these.

 

So in the UK, 00-P seems like DAB radio - a solution to a problem which doesn't exist.

 

- Richard.

[Junctionmad]

let me get this straight and I re-read Andys OP.  This is to allow P4 wheels to run on HO track , so as to facilitate modellers with p4 wheels  that want to see 00 gauge !!!!!!  why in gods name would you go to the expense of building the stock to p4 etc and then want to run it on HO track  !

 

I can fully understand p87 and any associated HO track standard , but 00-P whats that , where is the user base 

[martin_wynne]

I can fully understand p87 and any associated HO track standard , but 00-P whats that , where is the user base 

 

The user base appears to be modellers who want to mix 3.5mm/ft H0 models and 4mm/ft 00 models on the same track. Of course they can do that now very easily, as 00-BF / DOGA Imtermediate is virtually identical to the NMRA H0 track standards for handbuilt track. Or they can just buy Peco track.

 

But Andy is claiming that there is a sub-set of this user base who want to do the same thing using exact-scale wheels and flangeways. If there are any such modellers, they must be vanishingly few -- I can't recall a single one making a sound on RMweb or anywhere else.

 

I think Andy is pulling our leg.

 

Martin.

[BG John]

I thought that Great Western 4mm scale standard gauge was 28mm ie 7ft X 4mm.

 

Hat and coat left behind as it's to warm for them, bye!

28.08mm. The gauge was widened from 7ft to 7ft 0¼in very early on. And it wasn't only Great Western. The Midland and LSWR had it too, plus a few minor breakwater railways etc!

[Andy Reichert]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnEvTEAMbYE&feature=youtu.be

 

00-P is a new way for those who currently either have "00" layouts and/or RTR stock to get a quick, simple and minimum cost hands on feel for whether they like the appearance of scale wheels and want to go further. And the options include either going further and expanding with 00-P or going further with P4 and hand laid track., or not liking it and sticking with regular 00. Nothing is irreversible. And if you like the looks but not the layout conversions, you can have some much better looking display models that will sit on 00 track.

 

The time, cost and effort of converting an existing layout to P4, or building a new P4 layout is very significant. And you are not going to see whether you like the results for a very long time. 00-P may actually be a real boost for getting new members for the S4 Society who can have something similar to play with on day one.

 

With 00-P, providing your prototype vehicles will handle the small radii, you can even try playing with one or two modified vehicles on PECO set track. Including PECO turnouts if you modify them. Having to jump in and hand lay track is now merely an option, not a gating requirement.

 

Andy

Edited June 23, 2015 by Andy Reichert

[mightbe]

Why would anyone want to modify a commercial turnout enough to accept a tiny flangeway? Especially when IMHO Peco turnouts are cringeworthy up close (especially the view along the points). You'd have to replace the frog, the check rails, remove the gauge-widening on the diverging path all for a tester?

 

I was with you until you mentioned turnouts. 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

On the popular topic of the possibility of RTR P4--

 

C&L should bring back the Exactoscale starter pack and the Scalefour Society should hoard away a bunch of brand new, ultrascale-converted 57xxs and 08s for sale exclusively to newbies. Limit one per household, must be purchased within 1 year of starting your subscription--option to buy at slight discount when bundled with a first-year subscription. Then you'd have P4 basically RTR. Thread some rail attach two wires and voilà.

 

I would be all over that. I would drop OO-SF in a hearbeat and rush out to join Scalefour. Instead of waiting 6 months for your Ultrascale order to be processed you can have something that's guaranteed to work on the first day. That and I've heard the Exactoscale easy-build turnouts are practically impossible to mess up. 

 

They could call the whole shebang the Getting Started in P4 Pack. Choice of either locomotive/livery+gauges+B8 turnout+some fast track bases+extra chairs+rail somewhat cheaper than if you had bought them all separately. A joint venture between the Society, Ultrascale, and C&L, but sold through the Society. I imagine it would have to be made a members-exclusive to avoid people buying multiples. They could still be sold at shows with a membership I guess.

 

It's my understanding that Scalefour (or maybe Ultrascale) actually did sell pre-converted Bachmann panniers a few years ago at one of the big P4 shows. Anyone have any info on that? Have they done it again?

 

Quentin

Edited June 23, 2015 by mightbe

[Grovenor]

 

But Andy is claiming that there is a sub-set of this user base who want to do the same thing using exact-scale wheels and flangeways. If there are any such modellers, they must be vanishingly few -- I can't recall a single one making a sound on RMweb or anywhere else.

 

I think Andy is pulling our leg.

i think the "subset" consists of Andy.

Keith

[Jeff Smith]

My primary reason for moving to P4 was the appearance of the track, obviously a close second is steam loco wheels; diesel/electric traction has less 'OO' visual impact so not so crucial in my opinion. The halfway-house of OO-P would be a non-starter for a UK OO modeller considering P4 as it still needs new track and new wheels so why not go the whole hog.....

 

I understand the attraction for the situation that Andy is wanting to create, but have you, Andy, tried running P4 wheels over Proto-87 track? If you have already laid your track, as implied in your original post, then will you be altering it to suit?

[martin_wynne]

Hi Andy,

 

If you choose to stick with the overscale 0.68mm P4 flangeway I'm minded not to add 00-P as a Templot pre-set. It could still be created as a custom setting of course.

 

I can just about see an argument for an exact-scale 4mm/ft model of 4ft-1.5in track. But exact-scale means 0.58mm flangeways in 4mm/ft scale. (Which conveniently makes the track dimensions effectively identical to Proto-87).

 

The only argument I can see for using the P4 flangeway would be a mixed gauge P4 + 00-P layout, and I can't imagine anyone building such a thing.

 

If the 00-P track dimensions match Proto-87, all the existing recommendations for minimum radius, 6-wheel vehicles, locomotive axle sideplay, etc., can be lifted straight from Proto-87, and there is no need to derive it all again. Presumably Proto87 modellers are happy with the restrictions it imposes, so 00-P modellers are likely to be the same.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Edited June 23, 2015 by martin_wynne

[Grovenor]

 

I understand the attraction for the situation that Andy is wanting to create, but have you, Andy, tried running P4 wheels over Proto-87 track? If you have already laid your track, as implied in your original post, then will you be altering it to suit?

Andy has posted plenty of videos and posts about his test track, it looks as though he has not yet included any turnouts so it can be used for H0, P87, 00 and 00-P indiscriminately.

Keith

[martin_wynne]

Andy has posted plenty of videos and posts about his test track, it looks as though he has not yet included any turnouts so it can be used for H0, P87, 00 and 00-P indiscriminately.

 

Not forgetting 0n30.

[pete55]

 

On the popular topic of the possibility of RTR P4--

 

 

It's my understanding that Scalefour (or maybe Ultrascale) actually did sell pre-converted Bachmann panniers a few years ago at one of the big P4 shows. Anyone have any info on that? Have they done it again?

 

Quentin

 

I believe either last year or the year before the Scalefour Society did sell 25 pre converted Panniers or Jintys and the year prior to that it was a similar number of Class 25 diesels. This was at their annual Scaleforum show.

I believe they sold like the proverbial hot cakes! But, it would have required some poor soul to do all those conversions in the first place....

Edited June 23, 2015 by pete55

[martin_wynne]

I believe either last year or the year before the Scalefour Society did sell 25 pre converted Panniers or Jintys and the year prior to that it was a similar number of Class 25 diesels. This was at their annual Scaleforum show. I believe they sold like the proverbial hot cakes! But, it would have required some poor soul to do all those conversions in the first place....

 

see: http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=26457#p26457

[Andy Reichert]

Hi Andy,

 

If you choose to stick with the overscale 0.68mm P4 flangeway I'm minded not to add 00-P as a Templot pre-set. It could still be created as a custom setting of course.

 

I can just about see an argument for an exact-scale 4mm/ft model of 4ft-1.5in track. But exact-scale means 0.58mm flangeways in 4mm/ft scale. (Which conveniently makes the track dimensions effectively identical to Proto-87).

 

The only argument I can see for using the P4 flangeway would be a mixed gauge P4 + 00-P layout, and I can't imagine anyone building such a thing.

 

If the 00-P track dimensions match Proto-87, all the existing recommendations for minimum radius, 6-wheel vehicles, locomotive axle sideplay, etc., can be lifted straight from Proto-87, and there is no need to derive it all again. Presumably Proto87 modellers are happy with the restrictions it imposes, so 00-P modellers are likely to be the same.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

You raised this PRO before I got to it.

 

Of course you don't need to add an 00-P section to Templots's present parameters. That would already add even more confusion to the mixed up melting pot already there.

 

Since by my naming convention, 00-P is an 00 gauge (16.5 mm) based standard, all existing 00 gauge track templates can be used, whether Templot, C&L, PECO or what ever, because they will all have identical running rail positions. Templot would only be needed, if at all,  for new and unusual complex formations requiring hand laying.

 

The only difference in the templates for any of the correctly named 00 16.5 mm coarse or finer standards would be the exact location of the non-running rails forming the flange ways. And no-one who hand lays track should use the template instead of proper gauges to fix the position of those.

The only use of other templates in such a case would be to show and locate the positions of the sleepers for a particular prototype practice. And again for UK 4mm scale, those would also be identical for the same modelled prototype, regardless of the standard..

 

Andy

[ForestPines]

28.08mm. The gauge was widened from 7ft to 7ft 0¼in very early on. And it wasn't only Great Western. The Midland and LSWR had it too, plus a few minor breakwater railways etc!

I vaguely recall that 30-35 years ago then-RM-editor John Brewer built an "OO Broad Gauge" layout with a broad gauge of about 24mm or so. The logic was to use OO track for standard gauge on the same layout without having the mixed gauge parts look odd.

[martin_wynne]

Of course you don't need to add an 00-P section to Templots's present parameters.

 

Templot can be set to any gauge or scale, so strictly speaking there is no need for a list at all. However it is convenient to have a list of pre-sets available so that users are not required to remember and enter the settings.

 

 

Since by my naming convention, 00-P is an 00 gauge (16.5 mm) based standard, all existing 00 gauge track templates can be used, whether Templot, C&L, PECO or what ever

 

The position of the wing rail knuckle is determined by the flangeway gap, and will be significantly different for 00-P. While it is possible to ignore the knuckle position on a template, it is a useful guide in preparing the length of the wing rails and positioning them.

 

Also in Templot, when the crossing-type is "regular", the default length of crossing entry straight is determined by the flangeway gap. This in turn affects the lead length and radius. Admittedly this is Templot-specific and doesn't affect templates from other sources. But 00-P modellers may well be using Templot, so it is important to that in Templot at least, the flangeway gap is correctly entered if files are to be shared among users or posted online.

 

 

The only use of other templates in such a case would be to show and locate the positions of the sleepers for a particular prototype practice. And again for UK 4mm scale, those would also be identical for the same modelled prototype, regardless of the standard.

 

There is no UK prototype for 16.5mm gauge pointwork in 4mm/ft scale. 16.5mm turnouts are significantly shorter than the corresponding prototype size, with correspondingly fewer timbers. The size and spacing of these timbers for 00 is the subject of endless debate in the UK. Note also that for pointwork the UK term is timbers or bearers, not sleepers, which are smaller in section and used for plain track. If you are launching a new standard for UK modellers it is as well to get the UK terminology correct.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Andy Reichert]

I don't think I suggested anywhere that 00-P was intended to allow UK modellers to add Proto:87 vehicles. So my using a tad tighter max tolerance on P:87 B-B, would only be something that concerned my personal specific modelling and nothing that would affect the independent 00-P standard for 4mm modelling.

 

I'm just describing a system and technically sound standard where existing UK 00 modellers can very easily try out inexpensively and an indefinitely long period, having a few items converted to P4 wheels to see if they like the results cosmetically enough to go further but keep their time, effort and monetary investment by carrying on using their existing track /layout intact - OR - decide that they like scale modelling of both track and vehicles, and move over to full blown P4 with a much greater degree of confidence and surety.

 

00-P doesn't need "QC testing" to see if it works, any more than a new BMW does. They have both been functionally tested before they left "the factory", and they both work as advertised from day 1.  What I am suggesting is that some 00 modellers might want to use 00-P as a "test drive", to see if they like having scale wheels, just as you would most likely want to take out the BMW for trail run, to see if you prefer it to the car you already have, or might buy instead.

 

 

I've noticed that (1) many 00 modellers would like to see their vehicles look more like actual scale models with far more realistic wheels, but fear that proper P4 conversion will be too difficult, lengthy and costly, for them to see themselves completing it in their lifetime. There are other modellers (2) who wish that they could have UK appearance, and/or scale gauged track. And there modellers (3) who are not satisfied with either 00 gauge or non-scale wheels and want both to be equally good looking.

 

For group 3, there is the S4 society. For group 2 there is hand laid track. For group 1 there has been no solution until now, so 00-P may be something that would help them.  And if that only helps just one or two people, they that's better than not mentioning or supporting it at all, as far as I am concerned.

 

Having an 00-S standard would be far less (no?) help, because there is no large source of S4 wheels, and the minimum radius is much larger that even P4. IMHO, anyone who goes to the painstaking efforts to model in true scale 4mm more accurately than P4, would be unlikely to accept leaving the gauge to be non-scale.

 

Andy

Edited June 26, 2015 by Andy Reichert

[martin_wynne]

I'm just describing a system and technically sound standard where existing UK 00 modellers can very easily try out inexpensively and an indefinitely long period, having a few items converted to P4 wheels to see if they like the results cosmetically enough to go further but keep their time, effort and monetary investment by carrying on using their existing track /layout intact

 

Hi Andy,

 

This needs some clarification, because on the face of it, it doesn't make sense.

 

You are suggesting that someone modelling in 00 might like to change to P4 wheels on a few choice items of rolling stock, and then run them on only the plain-track sections of their existing layout? Not through any pointwork?

 

No-one is going to change to P4 wheels and build a sprung/compensated chassis for a UK-outline steam locomotive, just to see how it runs on 00 plain track. With the idea of converting it back to RTR 00, or to full P4, at a later date. A few wagons maybe. A diesel locomotive perhaps.

 

Such a process couldn't possibly be called an "easy and inexpensive" trial except perhaps for a couple of wagons. Which would tell them almost nothing about how easy it would be to build a P4 layout. Especially if this 00 modeller is using commercial track and has not tried handbuilding track.

 

With some fine models from continental Europe, I can just about see a case for 00-P for modellers who want to mix Proto-87 models with UK 4mm models. But if you are now saying that 00-P is intended for 4mm models only, I can't see any rhyme or reason that anyone would want it.

 

And if it is for plain track only, 00-P doesn't exist -- you don't need a standard if it's not intended for anyone to build pointwork. Just buy a yard of Peco track.

 

Are you sure you are not just having fun with us?

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Edited June 26, 2015 by martin_wynne

[47137]

I suggest 00-P is a farce, dreamt up to make a cover for a faked misunderstanding of 00-SF which has finally fallen into public view.

 

- Richard.

[Siberian Snooper]

I think Andy is extracting the urine, as he cannot see the advantages of 00-sf to him. If you're going to purchase P4/S4 wheel sets and then not build P4/S4 track you would be off your head, but then there is no telling of those from across the pond.

[Andy Reichert]

For those those that mistakenly went off topic, as per the OP, this is a description of a standard that will demonstrate and run wheels that appear to be scale models of real wheels.

 

From the most common layout viewpoint of sideways, models fitted with such wheels can appear to be scale models and not regular RTR models with their OT highly visible double scale sized flanges.

 

There are quite a few modellers in all parts of the world that find railway models fitted with scale wheels to be cosmetically and operationally more satisfying.

 

Andy

[47137]

There's nothing wrong with demonstrating anything, but expecting a buy-in for a demonstration as a new standard is a completely different matter.

 

As far as I can see, 00-P would suit a finescale modeller of the Middleton Railway or the Penydarren Tramway, but such a modeller will be building their track from scratch to preserve the look of the original railway. I suppose they could set up an oval of Peco track to use to run in their models.

 

Apart from this, 00-P it would suit a modeller with a P-87 or similar layout who fancies running some modern 00 RTR. Nothing wrong with this, probably a bit oddball in some people's eyes, but not the basis for a new standard.

 

- Richard.

[Andy Reichert]

Next PRO.

 

You don't have to make any hand laid track. If you are comfortable with the various commercial track offerings, all those will work as is for plain track and many commercial turnouts can be inexpensively and reversibly modified to run to either standard 00, or 00-P. One piece removable-replaceable crossings have been successfully available for the past decade. And may even be UK prototypical in some cases. (Such crossings are prototypical for US practice) and in some cases, such swappable frogs don't look significantly different from the original commercial versions - or even better.

 

Next PRO bonus(?)

 

If you do want UK outline appearance 00 gauge track, then this doesn't affect you. You can just as easily add some or all track as hand-laid with exchangeable crossings, just as with commercial track.

 

Andy

 

Next PRO +1

 

While the turnout mods in the previous post will only enable one type of standard to be used at a time, their have already been UK commercial 00 turnout offerings in the past that allow BOTH types of wheels, (00-P and 00) to be used concurrently, I.e. in the same train, with no further modifications needed. Using such turnouts, will of course allow true "progressive" or "mixed" conversion to 00-P wheels, without any loss of layout running capabilities.

 

Note I specifically said 00-P wheels. I.e. P4 wheelsets set to run on 16.5 mm gauge. As you might expect, there is a requirement for ALL wheels used concurrently to be set to the same track gauge.

 

Of course, there are now even prototype turnouts that have moving "noses", that can also be "standard independent" for all wheels using the same gauge, if modelled correctly.

 

That said, I'm planning to additionally make both types of model turnout above available to assist any other modellers beside myself who wish to run scale looking wheels on their 00 models. Alone or mixed.

 

Andy

Edited June 26, 2015 by Andy Reichert