Allegheny1600 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Hello All, I am having real problems trying to find and fit a suitable decoder for my Trix 22528 Prussian G8.1, later BR55 0-8-0 tender loco. As the decoder socket is in the tender under a lift out coal load, it should be a very simple job! It still runs exquisitely on analogue power. Initially I ran it on a Digitrax DZ126N (modified to fit!) and it seemed quite happy for a few days then blew the decoder. I thought, "oh dear, needs more oomph"! so have tried it with a couple of different Lenz Silver decoders. I've tested each of these decoders on my ESU decoder tester and they're fine. Everything reads fine on the programming track (decoder fitted to loco!). As soon as I put the loco on the main track, it just sits there and flashes at me! Doesn't that mean a short circuit or not enough power? As soon as I remove decoder and re-fit the blanking plug and use DC, off she goes again, smooth as silk! Needless to say, I've hunted up & down on the internet without success! I think this loco is fitted with either a "Sinus" or "Soft" motor - it is definitely not fitted with an old style ringfield motor, not enough room in loco and too smooth and quiet for that. Or, am I missing something obvious, please? Any help greatly appreciated. John E. PS My DCC system is NCE Pro cab but can call on Lenz 100 or Z21 if need be. PPS If photos of the loco in question are required, please ask and I'll take some! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Hello All, I am having real problems trying to find and fit a suitable decoder for my Trix 22528 Prussian G8.1, later BR55 0-8-0 tender loco. As the decoder socket is in the tender under a lift out coal load, it should be a very simple job! It still runs exquisitely on analogue power. Initially I ran it on a Digitrax DZ126N (modified to fit!) and it seemed quite happy for a few days then blew the decoder. I thought, "oh dear, needs more oomph"! so have tried it with a couple of different Lenz Silver decoders. I've tested each of these decoders on my ESU decoder tester and they're fine. Everything reads fine on the programming track (decoder fitted to loco!). As soon as I put the loco on the main track, it just sits there and flashes at me! Doesn't that mean a short circuit or not enough power? As soon as I remove decoder and re-fit the blanking plug and use DC, off she goes again, smooth as silk! Needless to say, I've hunted up & down on the internet without success! I think this loco is fitted with either a "Sinus" or "Soft" motor - it is definitely not fitted with an old style ringfield motor, not enough room in loco and too smooth and quiet for that. Or, am I missing something obvious, please? Any help greatly appreciated. John E. PS My DCC system is NCE Pro cab but can call on Lenz 100 or Z21 if need be. PPS If photos of the loco in question are required, please ask and I'll take some! Not sure if I can help, can you post some photos to show the inner workings e.g. Motor etc please. Not certain which motor it is without looking ( I've tried to search for the service sheet on line but can't find one) . I tend to use the same Digitrax decoders in mine when I hard wire and haven't had a problem (yet!) Let's see if we can get it sorted Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Not sure if I can help, can you post some photos to show the inner workings e.g. Motor etc please. Not certain which motor it is without looking ( I've tried to search for the service sheet on line but can't find one) . I tend to use the same Digitrax decoders in mine when I hard wire and haven't had a problem (yet!) Let's see if we can get it sorted I've just found this one in my collection is the motor the same ? If so I was pondering on chipping it too ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Sorry, mine hasn't got a DCC socket and just realised your original post mentioned yours has has ( note to self ....Read things first before trying to be helpful!) That said I've got a similar problem to you with a Liliput T 9 Prussian lok which runs in DC mode but not DCC, there is an 8 pin socket into which I've tried 3 different chips ( all correctly installed ). It'll run forward with the '0' pressed on but won't work any other way. I've tried it with two other DCC set ups and the same thing happens. I've e-mailed Liliput today and they will ponder the problem and have promised to get back to me. Maybe it is a similar problem ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Suggest consulting the manuals Zimo offer, particularly chapter 7. Zimo give specific instructions and special versions of decoders for Sinus motors fitted to Trix, Marklin, etc... - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Hi Folks, Sorry for the delay in responding, hospital duties called! Here are the pictures of the G8.1, Tender with the coal space removed. Underneath the tender circuit board, a fair bit of space. Under the loco chassis, just three screws to undo and the body comes off. Not supposed to touch that black plastic item over the second axle. I opened up the loco and oh dear! Two complete units! The instructions say not to open the motor/gearbox units and this is still under warranty - so this is as far as I am going. However the motor itself appears to be above the black rectangle in the firebox, there is a flywheel and gears too so the motor may extend into the boiler, I can't tell. Thanks for the responses so far, I'll certainly look at Zimo, thanks Nigel! Cheers, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I've done a quick search on the model, and what I can find says its a DC model, not AC. So, in theory, a normal decoder should work. Were it mine, I'd do some tests at this stage: First is the current draw on DC running, need an ammeter for this. How much current is drawn on starting and during running ? Any decoder needs to be able to supply quite a bit more. The Digitrax decoder mentioned may not be up to the job. Then, I'd check the wiring, from the decoder socket through to the connectors on the loco PCB. A resistance setting on a multi-meter should show zero on paths which should be present (eg. decoder socket motor to motor terminal), and infinity on paths that should not (eg. motor to either of pickups). It should be possible to work out which wire goes where - the pickups should be apparent to the track, the two motor pins can be traced back from the smokebox area to the wires soldered under the cab, and thus back to the tender, and the lights similarly traced. If that shows nothing, I'd be looking at the resistance of the motor - perhaps there is an internal short ? But usually a motor fault shows up in poor analogue running. It is possible to wire a loco so it is fine on DC, but presents a short on DCC because there is a path from the pickups to either the motor or lighting which should not be present. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 My version is the TRIX Black 0-8-0 Type G.8.1 Prussian Built (4000+) loco number 1414 fitted with a 21 pin decoder So it looks as i the model has been updated over the years. I had had mine for +5 years. I'm not sure that, simply because the TRIX version is the DC model, a 'standard' decoder will work, because it may have the 'Sinus' Motor ... and if my understanding of this from their publicity is correct, it is brushless, and the commutation is provided by the accompanying pcb ... which with Marklin AC Mfx would be integrated with the decoder ... and this may be the same for the Trix version i it was supplied as DCC-fitted .... AND/OR Selectrix fitted ... using a multiprotocol decoder. Hence the 21pin design with extra connections and Zimo 'mods' for compatibility ???? HOWEVER, since your model shows an 8-pin decoder, it should be 'standard'. Double check with a meter and visually that there are no extra capacitors or connections between chassis and motor. ALSO check that 'long pins' on the decoder are not passing through the holes and touching something they shouldn't - or when the METAL body is replaced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshleyH Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Just spotted this. I have the Marklin 3 rail version of this model. It does not have a Sinus motor, which is good news because they need an expensive control board. What is does have in the boiler is a can motor with a bell shaped armature. Such motors are problematic to control under DCC, but ESU Lokpilot and Loksound chips have a specific setting for this type of motor I believe. I think, but am not 100% on this that motors with a bell shaped armsture are also referred to as coreless motors. Armed with this information, others should be able to help you find a suitable DCC chip with the correct CV settings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Not long ago done one of these sinus motored models for a friend. For all 'tricky jobs' as Nigel suggests, 'Do not pass go, proceed immediately to Zimo!' (Zimo are the DCC equivalent of Monopoly's GOOJF card). Here's the online manual, you need to read chapter 9, p50 very closely to determine the decoder you require. http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/MX620MX630MX640E-alt.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWG Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Not long ago done one of these sinus motored models for a friend. For all 'tricky jobs' as Nigel suggests, 'Do not pass go, proceed immediately to Zimo!' (Zimo are the DCC equivalent of Monopoly's GOOJF card). Here's the online manual, you need to read chapter 9, p50 very closely to determine the decoder you require. http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/MX620MX630MX640E-alt.pdf If, as Ashley H has told us (almost certainly correctly), the loco has a coreless motor, then page 50, which deals with Sinus motors, is irrelevant. He is wrong that coreless motors are problematic with DCC; they were years ago when decoders sent low frequency pulses to the motor, but all modern decoders have either high frequency output or a choice of high or low. So any reasonably good decoder would do. My belief is that the problem is nothing to do with the decoder. The clue lies in the original post when Allegheny told us that with Lenz decoders the loco lights flashed. I think that this, as he suspected, is with Lenz a signal that there is a short circuit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I believe searching this forum, and if necessary joining to post a query, may be the best way to tap into the experience from der Heimat. http://www.marklin-users.net/Forum/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted July 10, 2015 Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 It is possible to wire a loco so it is fine on DC, but presents a short on DCC because there is a path from the pickups to either the motor or lighting which should not be present. Nigel Thanks for this Nigel, I finally followed your advice as far as I could (still need to get an ammeter) and eventually found a short between the wiring for pin 1 (orange motor terminal) and part of the lighting circuit - more or less exactly as you predicted! In an pretty obvious place (when you think about it!) - the connection between loco & tender, at the loco end. This will explain why the loco was to start with, fine on DC and why a short appeared on DCC. Even with the aid of a strong magnifying glass, I still could not see that a short could occur, nevertheless there was one! Unfortunately there is not much room down there and there is also the mechanical connection between loco & tender to deal with so I needed to be able to hold each wire apart in a non rigid way so I thought "blue tack!" I know that renewing the connections would be the best but I felt those tiny wires would be very difficult to handle and the same problem may reoccur. Anyway, I rolled up a small cylinder of white tack actually, held the wires of of the way and inserted it beneath them, pressed everything into place and reassembled the loco. Initial testing was on analogue - fine! Then check a decoder on the programming track - fine! Okay, expensive time - check said decoder on the main - fine!!! No flashing lights, no stuttering, no smoke - looks like a fix! The surprising thing is, this decoder was one I just grabbed from my box and it's "only" a Lenz 'Standard' decoder but works fine so I guess I'll leave it fitted. Plus there is the possibility my 'fix' may result in another short in time so - any suggestions for a better fix, please? http://WP_20150710_00_52_00_Pro by Allegheny1633, on Flickr In the picture above, reading L to R, Brown wire = Pick-up (black) Green = Motor terminal (grey) Dk Blue = Motor terminal (orange) Black = Lighting common (blue) Grey = Front light (white?) Red = Rear light?? (yellow?) The tapered black plastic object is the loco - tender drawbar connection and the two rectangular holes either side of that, help secure the body and that whole area is about half an inch wide! There we have it! I *think* the motor is the type with a "bell shaped" armature, rather than a "Sinus" type, being able to use the Standard decoder confirms this? My thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions, I've followed many links and done lots of internet research, it seems that generally this is a highly regarded model so I must have been unlucky with it. Cheers all, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I'm pleased progress is being made. It would seem that the motor is "normal" if it runs on a standard decoder, and as indicated the problem is a short in the wiring. I can't identify anything in the photo as the focus point is just too far forwards at the gear pinion, so the wire connections are actually fuzzy (going to the external image and max enlargement on a big monitor to look). Unfortunately, the real answer is to re-do the suspect connections, and carefully. Ideally the path of the short would be identified. With the blueta fixing things, it would seem that one of the wires can drift across and touch another - possibly only a single strand. However, if the bluetac is doing its job, you may choose to leave it alone and not touch further. An option to help the insulation would be to paint an insulating material onto the wires where they are bare at the ends - a rubbery glue could work, or slightly runny expoxy resin and leave to set. Good magnification and good light could help with this work - I have a set of clip-on magnifiers which fit my spectacles frame. And, it really is worth getting a cheap multi-meter - they're about half the price of the Lenz Standard chip you're using ! - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted July 10, 2015 Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 Thank you Nigel! Yes, I have a cheap multi meter by Ronson! I think it can only do voltages, resistances, not sure how to use it to check amps drawn though? Part of the reason why I went DCC is I am actually an electrical numpty! I get something like dyslexia when looking at lots of different coloured wires and am confused easily, I thought (and still feel) that simple red & black for the track is so much easier for me as I could never cope with lots of different sections! (not wanting to stir up the old DC vs DCC argument again, oops!). Sorry about the image quality, that was just my mobile phone - I'll try and get a decent camera photo posted on here - soon! Cheers, John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Hi folks, I can't believe so many days have passed already! Anyway, here is a better quality photo of my temporary repair. http://P1160950 by Allegheny1633, on Flickr Thanks for looking, John E. PS The photo IS there, just not showing right now, sorry. Will adjust if necessary later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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