A3 Book Law

[shunny]

Has anyone picked up one of these yet? I am wondering if Hornby have managed to get the tender lettering in line with the cab numbers or have they continued the fault that started with the Great Gathering and put the LNER in the middle of the tender?

The picture on Hornby's wed site is incorrect but this appears to be pre-production model from the catalogue rather than the model which has arrived.

 

 

[GNR Dave]

LNER on the tender is about 1.2mm higher than the cab side number.

Wouldn't the height of the tender vary depending on how much water / coal was on board at the time ? Surely the more carried, the lower the ride height. Did the LNER line them up for an empty or full tender ?

I know that on Hornbys Coronation liveried LNER A4s the chrome trim that runs along the bottom edge of the valance, doesn't line up with the corresponding trim on the tender. The trim on the tender is over 1mm higher. I assumed this was because Hornby measured Mallards tender, which as a museum exhibit, would presumably have been empty.

 

I'm no expert, just putting forward a possible explanation.

 

Book Law still looks like a stunning model IMHO

[micklner]

There is a photo of 2599 in RCTS Pt 2a which has the lettering/numbers dead in line. No idea if loaded or not etc. Very rare to find a photo of a LNER Pacific where they do not line up. In the current photos I have so far seen, the numbers are out of line it appears the 5 is lower than the rest of the numbers.

 

The Hornby A4 chrome lining/strip is simply wrong. The Chrome strip was on a additional strip placed beneath the running plate of the Tender. Hornby have cheated and placed the strip above the Tender footplate to avoid additional tooling.

 

Shame you cant buy the New Type Tender on its own.

Edited July 1, 2015 by micklner

[shunny]

The load of the tender would make a little bit of difference to the height, but the problem on the previous models seemed to come from the new factory printing the LNER in the centre of the tender as they would do for the BR Lion and Wheel for example but the LNER was lower than centre line to match the height of the cab Numbers.

Sandakan and Margate factories over the years always got this right but I don't think the new factory has had this pointed out to them by anyone at Hornby.

[WD0-6-0]

Just out of curiosity, what is special about Book Law? I've heard it talked about like it was unique, was it?

[Cor-onGRT4]

Anyone noticed the alteration of the tender wheels?

 

On Hornby's website you see Book Law pictured with spoke tender wheels

even on the packaging box , but if you are looking on the sites of

Rails of Sheffield and Kernow you see disc wheels under the tender,

so wondering why Hornby changed this again as with the smoke deflectors

of SR N15 Sir Sagramore.

Just found an picture of Flying Scotsman in 1928 with corridor tender

with spoke wheels, so these tender were in the begining with spoke wheels.

A little bit dissapointing because, every loco with these tender Hornby made

all have disc wheels as far I noticed for LNER liveries.

[Mike70]

Just out of curiosity, what is special about Book Law? I've heard it talked about like it was unique, was it?

 

I don't think there is anything special about Book Law. 

 

But this is probably the first super detail A3 to be produced in the LNER livery as it was in operation.

There have been some versions of Flying Scotsman in LNER livery.  But they were all in the preserved state.

 

Also I think it is the first time this tender has been produced in LNER in apple green.

[Bernard Lamb]

Just out of curiosity, what is special about Book Law? I've heard it talked about like it was unique, was it?

Nothing special other than that some people would like an A3 to run alternate turns with their C1 in mid 1930s condition.

Some of us would also like to find out just what errors Hornby have incorporated and what work is needed to bring it up to scratch.

See reference to tender wheels and see pre issue pictures. Several ambiguities to be seen in these.  Photos of the actual model are remarkably lacking so far but some people do seem to have obtained models even though some, many? dealers have not yet received any stock.

It must have been a long time ago when I ordered this.

Bernard

[Bon Accord]

Received mine today. The livery application looks ok and nothing has fallen off as yet, however there are couple of glaring errors.

First of all, cab/tender lettering do not match up and in that regard Hornby is still where it was nearly 2 years ago when this error appeared on the Great Gathering sets, it then being perpetuated in the Great Goodbye sets as well as the awful GREAT SNIPE.

Secondly, the grate/ashpan operating lever is on the drivers side of the cab, not the correct firemens side, ergo the reversing rod and ashpan lever are incorrectly on the same side.

The original pre production shots from 2 years ago appeared to show the locomotive to be right hand drive with the lever as visible on the left (firemans) side and no reverser linkage visible, yet the photo did show the vacuum ejector exhaust erronously on the left hand side. From that potential mess we now have reverser linkage on the correct left hand (drivers) side together with the ejector exhaust, but with the ashpan lever still in the wrong place. From what I can discern, 2599 was built with left hand drive when new and Hornby have therefore got it some way right since the pre production mock up.

Whilst it may not be a huge job to relocate said ashpan lever, that coupled with the inexcusable continuation of the tender lettering error is very frustrating.

You can only wonder if it is the case that the factory is just doing it's own thing in this regard, or is it perhaps that Hornby management/supervision/prototype knowledge is as poor as it appears to be.

[pom-pom]

Received mine today. The livery application looks ok and nothing has fallen off as yet, however there are couple of glaring errors.

First of all, cab/tender lettering do not match up and in that regard Hornby is still where it was nearly 2 years ago when this error appeared on the Great Gathering sets, it then being perpetuated in the Great Goodbye sets as well as the awful GREAT SNIPE.

Secondly, the grate/ashpan operating lever is on the drivers side of the cab, not the correct firemens side, ergo the reversing rod and ashpan lever are incorrectly on the same side.

The original pre production shots from 2 years ago appeared to show the locomotive to be right hand drive with the lever as visible on the left (firemans) side and no reverser linkage visible, yet the photo did show the vacuum ejector exhaust erronously on the left hand side. From that potential mess we now have reverser linkage on the correct left hand (drivers) side together with the ejector exhaust, but with the ashpan lever still in the wrong place. From what I can discern, 2599 was built with left hand drive when new and Hornby have therefore got it some way right since the pre production mock up.

Whilst it may not be a huge job to relocate said ashpan lever, that coupled with the inexcusable continuation of the tender lettering error is very frustrating.

You can only wonder if it is the case that the factory is just doing it's own thing in this regard, or is it perhaps that Hornby management/supervision/prototype knowledge is as poor as it appears to be.

 

It's a real shame after all this time waiting and the evident research and development that's gone into this model to have the two glaring errors you mention creep in, re., ash pan rocker lever on the wrong side and the cab/tender lettering at the wrong heights. Perpetuation of the latter error after all the warning comments available to Hornby on here re., Great Snipe cab/tender lettering, etc. is certainly unfortunate and probably the most awkward to correct, needing a potential tender repaint and colour match to the apple-green used by Hornby on the loco. Think I'll keep my wallet firmly shut, as with Great Snipe.

[Ian Hargrave]

Received mine today. The livery application looks ok and nothing has fallen off as yet, however there are couple of glaring errors.

First of all, cab/tender lettering do not match up and in that regard Hornby is still where it was nearly 2 years ago when this error appeared on the Great Gathering sets, it then being perpetuated in the Great Goodbye sets as well as the awful GREAT SNIPE.

Secondly, the grate/ashpan operating lever is on the drivers side of the cab, not the correct firemens side, ergo the reversing rod and ashpan lever are incorrectly on the same side.

The original pre production shots from 2 years ago appeared to show the locomotive to be right hand drive with the lever as visible on the left (firemans) side and no reverser linkage visible, yet the photo did show the vacuum ejector exhaust erronously on the left hand side. From that potential mess we now have reverser linkage on the correct left hand (drivers) side together with the ejector exhaust, but with the ashpan lever still in the wrong place. From what I can discern, 2599 was built with left hand drive when new and Hornby have therefore got it some way right since the pre production mock up.

Whilst it may not be a huge job to relocate said ashpan lever, that coupled with the inexcusable continuation of the tender lettering error is very frustrating.

You can only wonder if it is the case that the factory is just doing it's own thing in this regard, or is it perhaps that Hornby management/supervision/prototype knowledge is as poor as it appears to be.

You haven't yet spotted the seam join on the boiler top yet then ? OK for all its failings it is still a handsome model with lining and livery beautifully applied. I'll learn to live with the loco/tender lettering mismatch as I have with my two from The Great Gathering. Some obviously may not.Its performance by the way is both silky smooth and powerful. Strange to reflect that over a decade since Hornby introduce the A1/A3 to current loco drive standards,this is the first actual A3 in LNER apple green.

[pom-pom]

It's a real shame after all this time waiting and the evident research and development that's gone into this model to have the two glaring errors you mention creep in, re., ash pan rocker lever on the wrong side and the cab/tender lettering at the wrong heights. Perpetuation of the latter error after all the warning comments available to Hornby on here re., Great Snipe cab/tender lettering, etc. is certainly unfortunate and probably the most awkward to correct, needing a potential tender repaint and colour match to the apple-green used by Hornby on the loco. Think I'll keep my wallet firmly shut, as with Great Snipe.

 

Are those cab-cutouts correct for 2599? There's a lovely colour photo of 2599 on page 59 in "The Big Four in Colour" (ISBN 0-906899-62-1) taken in 1937. It has small cutouts and presumably bucket seats.

[Bon Accord]

You haven't yet spotted the seam join on the boiler top yet then ? OK for all its failings it is still a handsome model with lining and livery beautifully applied. I'll learn to live with the loco/tender lettering mismatch as I have with my two from The Great Gathering. Some obviously may not.Its performance by the way is both silky smooth and powerful. Strange to reflect that over a decade since Hornby introduce the A1/A3 to current loco drive standards,this is the first actual A3 in LNER apple green.

 

I did notice the boiler seam join, and whilst it is more noticeable than either of my three Hornby SD A1s (GLADIATEUR, FLYING FOX and ROYAL LANCER) I can just about live with that as it is disguisable. Certainly since those three models Hornby seem to have gone backwards with their LNER pacifics, never mind standing still or even forwards.

[Bernard Lamb]

Thanks folks.

I did make my comment about errors with my tongue slightly in my cheek. I had heard a comment about the ash pan mech. Is this item worth replacing with an after market etch? Brassmasters do an etch with several handy parts on it for A3s and A4s. Looks like a very careful choice of period or a new identity for various times in the 1930s. Time for a spot of reading and studying photos.

Bernard

[mattingleycustom]

Are those cab-cutouts correct for 2599? There's a lovely colour photo of 2599 on page 59 in "The Big Four in Colour" (ISBN 0-906899-62-1) taken in 1937. It has small cutouts and presumably bucket seats.

No, they're not. On the prototypes the fitting of the bucket seats was coincident with a reduction in the size of the cut out at the rear of the cab. However Hornby's model has both the bucket seats and the large cab cut outs.

 

On my model the reversing rod was missing but was found among the packaging - most likely succumbing to the rigours of the delivery journey.

 

Anyway, errors apart, at last I have an A3 to go with my small fleet of LNER A1s and A4s !!!

 

Glenn

[GNR Dave]

Pardon my ignorance but what are the main visual differences between the A1 and the A3 ? I had thought the biggest visual change (at least from layout viewing position) was the banjo dome, which this model does not have.

 

Hope this isn't too big a question. I'm referring to external appearance, not mechanical / internal improvements.

[micklner]

Photos please!!

 

As to A3 differences depends on year you are talking about. Various boiler types, Cab controls , seating  etc.

[pom-pom]

No, they're not. On the prototypes the fitting of the bucket seats was coincident with a reduction in the size of the cut out at the rear of the cab. However Hornby's model has both the bucket seats and the large cab cut outs.

 

On my model the reversing rod was missing but was found among the packaging - most likely succumbing to the rigours of the delivery journey.

 

Anyway, errors apart, at last I have an A3 to go with my small fleet of LNER A1s and A4s !!!

 

Glenn

 

So the corrections list for us perfectionists so far stands at:

 

(1.) Remove the ash pan rocker lever from the left-hand side with a view to relocating it to the right-hand side. In photos I've seen this is painted black and is less conspicuous than on the Hornby version.

(2.) Remove the tender 'LNER' lettering and relocate slightly lower in line with the cab numbering of which the latter might also need to be relocated higher.

(3.) Build up the cab cut-outs to the smaller versions to match the bucket seats. If 2599 was built in July, 1930 then was it done so with the larger cut-outs and no bucket seats? If this modification took place c.1935 then removal of the bucket seats would place it in the 1930 - 1935 era?

(4.) Whilst the paint job is somewhat trashed in (2.) and (3.) one might as well deal with the boiler seam join too. Anybody know a paint that exactly matches that of Hornby?

 

I like modifying RTR stock to make detail improvements but correcting poor errors on £150+ models doesn't quite have the same levels of satisfaction unfortunately! Still, could've been worse. Perhaps one issue may be that Hornby see themselves as primarily a toy manafacturer whereas we see their products as detailed accurate historical models.

[micklner]

Bucket seats were fitted the same time as smaller cutouts in 1935 .

 

Precision Doncaster Green normally matches but the colour does vary.

 

You can remove letters and numbers with T cut if you are careful, the paint will only polish in the process. 

 

Ashpan lever wasn't painted they get dirty in use.

 

 

If Book Law has Bucket seats (still haven't seen many photos) that is very poor they should look like Piano stools. Hornby fitted the correct ones to earlier versions. Easy to change ,cut the back of the seat off.

Edited July 4, 2015 by micklner

[AdamOrmorod]

Bucket seats were fitted the same time as smaller cutouts in 1935 .

 

Precision Doncaster Green normally matches but the colour does vary.

 

You can remove letters and numbers with T cut if you are careful, the paint will only polish in the process. 

 

Ashpan lever wasn't painted they get dirty in use.

 

 

If Book Law has Bucket seats (still haven't seen many photos) that is very poor they should look like Piano stools. Hornby fitted the correct ones to earlier versions. Easy to change ,cut the back of the seat off.

You can see them clearly here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/45602-york-leaman-road-mpd-lner-1938/page-53on post 1309, which is a renumbered and expertly weathered 4475 Flying Fox. So they're not like a usual piano bench you see at pianos but the less common round stools, but they still appear to be attached only at the sides of the cab so as Mick says cutting the back of the seat off and then painting it black should sort it out.

[Bernard Lamb]

You can see them clearly here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/45602-york-leaman-road-mpd-lner-1938/page-53on post 1309, which is a renumbered and expertly weathered 4475 Flying Fox. So they're not like a usual piano bench you see at pianos but the less common round stools, but they still appear to be attached only at the sides of the cab so as Mick says cutting the back of the seat off and then painting it black should sort it out.

Not quite as simple as that. The original fireman's seat was about 5" narrower than the drivers seat. It was then moved sideways a few inches to allow him more room to use his shovel. So says the Green Book.

Bernard

[mattingleycustom]

Bucket seats were fitted the same time as smaller cutouts in 1935 .

 

Extracts from RCTS Locomotives of the LNER Part 2A Classes A1 to A10:

Following complaints from the enginemen in 1934, Bucket seats were first fitted to 4476 in June 1935, followed by 4474 in July, from August Gresley instructed that all the pacifics be so fitted ... at the same time the rear cut-out was reduced by raising the cab sheets by 11 inches.

Therefore, the Bucket seats were fitted the same time as smaller cut outs from 1935.

 

Glenn

[pom-pom]

Bucket seats were fitted the same time as smaller cutouts in 1935 .

 

Precision Doncaster Green normally matches but the colour does vary.

 

You can remove letters and numbers with T cut if you are careful, the paint will only polish in the process. 

 

Ashpan lever wasn't painted they get dirty in use.

 

 

If Book Law has Bucket seats (still haven't seen many photos) that is very poor they should look like Piano stools. Hornby fitted the correct ones to earlier versions. Easy to change ,cut the back of the seat off.

 

Thanks Mick, most informative re., use of T-cut and paint match. Shall have a go... despite what I said about my wallet remaining firmly closed as it did with Great Snipe it overpowered me in a moment of weakness - shall post some photos on here as requested unless I'm beaten to it.

 

Nick

[pom-pom]

Extracts from RCTS Locomotives of the LNER Part 2A Classes A1 to A10:

Following complaints from the enginemen in 1934, Bucket seats were first fitted to 4476 in June 1935, followed by 4474 in July, from August Gresley instructed that all the pacifics be so fitted ... at the same time the rear cut-out was reduced by raising the cab sheets by 11 inches.

Therefore, the Bucket seats were fitted the same time as smaller cut outs from 1935.

 

Glenn

 

Very useful, thanks. So the Hornby version with the bucket seats reworked to the earlier pattern and the existing large cab cut-outs gives us 2599 in the period 1930 - 1935 unless I'm mistaken and/or there are other features of the Hornby model which do not belong in that time period.

[Les1952]

On cabside lettering and A3s

 

The RCTS green guide has photos that show that Doncaster had two different sizes of number for A3 cabsides, sometimes on the same engine- 2750 Papyrus is an example- the 50 being slightly larger than the 27 at the time that it set its world speed record.   2751 was similar, as was 2749 amongst others. 

 

The photos also show slightly different shading, again between cabside numbers on the same engine.  This could have been the result of damage to one or more digits resulting in partial revarnishing of the cabside, or there could be another reason.  A classic example is shown in the Green Guide- Grand Parade at Doncaster after its accident.  The differences here are not due to the accident damage as other photos of Grand Parade (I) show the difference in shading- indeed it is a good way of telling a picture of the First Grand Parade from a picture of the replacement loco, as the replacement engine had all the numbers on the cabside the same.

 

I suspect that the LNER being very strapped for cash didn't go in for full repaints and relettering in the early to mid thirties if a cheaper alternative was available.

 

Now, did Book Law suffer from odd-sized or odd-coloured cabside numbers at any time?

 

Les