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Mikemeg's Workbench - Building locos of the North Eastern & LNER


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On 24/01/2021 at 10:45, mikemeg said:

Re the fitting of the Gresley 8-wheel tenders, the LNER Encyclopaedia entry for this class, states that the Gresley 8-wheel tenders, for the Raven Pacifics, were ordered in 1933 and fitted in late 1934. The original 4125 gallon NER tenders were then fitted to new J39's. So when 2404 was first fitted with an A1 boiler and for around a further five years, it retained its original NER 4125 gallon tender.

 

So the first of the two photos of 2404, which I posted, looks as though it was still attached to a 4125 gallon ex-NER tender and would therefore date the photo to some time between 1929 and late 1934. The second photo, does clearly show the 8-wheel Gresley tender, so is probably post 1934.

 

This same source also states that all five of the Raven Pacifics were moved to York in 1934 where they finished their days on secondary passenger and freight services. The photo, below, of 2403 at York, showing this loco with its 8-wheel tender is also, therefore, probably post 1934.

 

For a locomotive by now - late 1934 or later - 'demoted' from its intended, high profile role, this one looks to be in very clean external condition

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

York Shed 2403.jpg

Thanks for the images.
I had never seen a picture of these locos with origional boiler firebox and an outside bearing rear truck.
Added the finishing touch.

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22 hours ago, 18131r said:

Mike will you be building one of these, if you do will be posting the build.

 

Richard

 

Richard,

 

I'm not sure about building one of these. All five of these locomotives were withdrawn in 1936 or 1937; in fact 2402 was the first locomotive, built by the LNER, to be withdrawn.

 

So as my models are almost all set in a mid 1950 timeframe, then they don't fit into that. Of course, I have built a Q5/2, which had all gone by 1949, and a B15, which had also all gone pre 1950, on the basis that my two examples got lost at the back of some loco shed (much as the surviving B12/3 did) and, on being found, then became progenitors of the later preservation movements.

 

I could, I suppose, stretch that argument to an even older, dustier, and longer forgotten motive power depot 'outpost' as some of the more senior mpd guys from York - where all five were based prior to withdrawal - sought to hide one of their more treasured charges to escape the cutter's torch!!

 

So, on that basis, or more simply just because I fancy building one of these, then I might. Though I have much to complete before I can consider starting anything else. 

 

If I do build one, then yes, t'will appear on here!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

A2 2400 City of Newcastle.jpg

Edited by mikemeg
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Mike

 

Go on you know you want to, you could claim it as escaping the torch and run it on a special working through Hessel.

They look such a majestic beast of a loco.

 

As an aside will you be posting any more updates on the progress of your depiction of Hessel Haven?

 

Regards

 

Richard

 

 

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4 hours ago, 18131r said:

Mike

 

Go on you know you want to, you could claim it as escaping the torch and run it on a special working through Hessel.

They look such a majestic beast of a loco.

 

As an aside will you be posting any more updates on the progress of your depiction of Hessel Haven?

 

Regards

 

Richard

 

 

 

Richard,

 

Many thanks for the enquiry and for the encouragement and, you've guessed! But I've a lot to finish before I get to one of these Raven Pacifics though, I have to admit, when it comes to big passenger locos, they don't come much more impressive than these.

 

As for Hessle Haven, I've only just moved the layout back into my new flat from my garage, so a little damage and deterioration to repair. Then I have to continue work on the third and most complex section.

 

Let me here post another of Mick's photos. This is Hessle, the station - just up from Hessle Haven - on a misty morning  in 1960 with an A3 'raising the echoes' as it works an empty mineral. The big Gresley, Thompson and Peppercorn RA9 locos - A1, A2, A3, A4, V2, W1 - were comparatively rare in Hull as the Hull - Doncaster route was RA7; though they did work over the Hull - Selby/Leeds and Hull - York routes, which were RA9.

 

If the Hull - Doncaster route had been RA9, Hull would almost certainly have had an allocation of Pacifics and V2's.

 

For me this wonderfully atmospheric photo - and thousands like it -  just says it all about the railway we knew and we loved.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

Hessle# .jpg

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Well here we go then 4 photos of the NER pacfics from the lens of JJ Cunningham who was a Lawyer from Edinburgh. All are negatives in my collection. 

First 2400 at Craigentinny carriage sidings. 

2400.JPG.fda3fd57c0bcdb4a2981b71245794f2e.JPG  

Next 2402 passing Joppa , a gorgeous image.

887396786_2402Joppa.JPG.54b7f00bf882ccbd40cff106e7abb6a8.JPG

Next 2401 also passing Joppa

 

124726622_2401joppa.JPG.a1eb8076a1c65843ae8dd1f59d3a8717.JPG

 

Finally 2400 at rest on a turntable, possibly around Edinburgh as most of JJ's negs tend to be round Edingburgh, Joppa, Annan with a smattering of the 1000 or so I have elsewhere. 2012464526_2400s.JPG.2df642081fbd4046b87f3a4823a7acb4.JPG

 

Hope they are enjoyed

 

 

 

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Oh yes, they're enjoyed. I know this topic area and its threads are 'Kitbuilding and Scratchbuilding' but it makes this thread (and any in this topic area) so much more interesting if folks contribute their own experiences, information, reminiscences on what is being built; model or prototype. At least that's my own personal view.

 

Many thanks for the photos, they really do add to the thread.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

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11 minutes ago, mikemeg said:

Oh yes, they're enjoyed. I know this topic area and its threads are 'Kitbuilding and Scratchbuilding' but it makes this (and any in this topic area) so much more interesting if folks contribute their own experiences, information, reminiscences on what is being built; model or prototype. At least that's my own personal view.

 

Many thanks for the photos, they really do add to the thread.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

Your welcome. There may be a few more to find , but not sure

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5 hours ago, mikemeg said:

 

Richard,

 

I'm not sure about building one of these. All five of these locomotives were withdrawn in 1936 or 1937; in fact 2402 was the first locomotive, built by the LNER, to be withdrawn.

 

So as my models are almost all set in a mid 1950 timeframe, then they don't fit into that. Of course, I have built a Q5/2, which had all gone by 1949, and a B15, which had also all gone pre 1950, on the basis that my two examples got lost at the back of some loco shed (much as the surviving B12/3 did) and, on being found, then became progenitors of the later preservation movements.

 

I could, I suppose, stretch that argument to an even older, dustier, and longer forgotten motive power depot 'outpost' as some of the more senior mpd guys from York - where all five were based prior to withdrawal - sought to hide one of their more treasured charges to escape the cutter's torch!!

 

So, on that basis, or more simply just because I fancy building one of these, then I might. Though I have much to complete before I can consider starting anything else. 

 

If I do build one, then yes, t'will appear on here!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

A2 2400 City of Newcastle.jpg

Well the Big express electric hung around for decades till nationalisation put paid to it.

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Anyone who follows this thread (there must be at least one out there!) might wonder why I'm not posting photos of work in progress. Well, I'm still finishing off the 'tender fest', where I am building all of the missing tenders from the various test builds done over the last three or four years.  There are now six tenders being built; I've added one :-

 

2 x 3940 gallon with four coal rails, for the two D20's.

1 x 3940 gallon with four coal rails, for an as yet unbuilt Q5/1.

1 x 3038 gallon with four coal rails. for the J25.

2 x 3038 gallon with two coal rails, for a couple of other models.

 

So, with the best will in the world, doing a 'step by step' of six very similar models might not be the most edifying thing to do.

 

Anyway, the Raven Pacifics did seem to prove a reasonably popular 'distraction', so here's another one.

 

The two photos, below, once again courtesy Mick Nicholson, show the entire class of LNER C8's / NER 4CC. These locomotives were actually designed by Walter M Smith, who was Chief Draughtsman under Wilson Worsdell and emerged in 1906. They were 4 cylinder compounds and, from the account in the LNER Encyclopaedia, were an immediate success. Seemingly ten more were proposed but, due to patenting/royalties issues, were never authorised by the NER Board and were not built.

 

Again, from the LNER Encyclopaedia entry, though the NER did not pursue Smith's compound principles, the Midland did; resulting in the Midland compound 4-4-0's.

 

These two were withdrawn in 1935 and 1933 respectively as, by then, they needed new boilers.

 

Look closely at the fireboxes, on these two locomotives, making them unique among all of the North Eastern's locos!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

730 C8, York 1928..jpg

731 4CC.jpg

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Now finishing the six tender subframes with wheelsets, brakes and brake linkage. This one belongs to one of the 3940 gallon tenders for one of the D20's. On this one, all three axles are sprung, using CSB's. On later subframes, only the centre axle is sprung; the outer axles are mounted in fixed 2mm bearings. 

 

The later style of compensated tender brake linkage is fiddly to assemble but does benefit from some care.

 

So the thread does, once more, revert to building something!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

P4080032.JPG

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I'm going to provoke a bit of a debate with this posting, though I hope a friendly and constructive debate. The issue is this :-

 

To what extent should a loco kit (etched or white metal) cover some or all of the detailing options which the builder might wish to incorporate? I was reminded of this by the comments of a couple of very capable and experienced modelling acquaintances who expressed conflicting views on this.

 

Personally, I always adopt the view that on every kit I build, whether a test build or from a production version, there will be details which I will want to add to increase the representation of realism i.e. some scratch building. This is almost always items of detail below the footplate but occasionally above the footplate as well.

 

Many classes of steam loco lasted for forty, fifty or even more years and went though a number of incarnations through modifications, updates, rebuilds, etc. Most etched kits will cover the major variations. But the level of detailing of cabs, backheads, piping runs, washout plugs and mudholes,  works plates, shed plates, etc. must surely be down to the individual builder. For a kit to cover all of these options would surely render it far more expensive and would prove far more wasteful on options not used.

 

So, for me, I expect to have to add detailing - i.e. some scratch building - to any kit which I build but is that representative of other kit builders?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited by mikemeg
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That is a thoughtful post, Mike, and is apposite as I am currently building an LRM N9. To represent the loco in its' final condition, I had to source plates for the coal rails, Ross Pop valves, rods to the front splashers and bars for the rear spectacle plates. Most of that was done with scrap etch. I added a bit of cab detail, again largely from scrap rod.

Other examples of the classes N8 and N9 could have been built almost entirely from the contents of the box, but there was no Westinghouse Pump if you needed one, and the rods to the splashers never seem never to be provided, despite being prominent on photos of almost all ex-NER locos.

But, to get back to your question, I personally enjoy trying to fabricate parts needed to customise a particular loco, and so, unless it is a part common to almost all of a class, don't bemoan something being absent. The irony is that, a few months after trying to add appropriate detail, the loco goes into (occasional) service on the layout and I forget what I did to "enhance" it.

Here is the N9 in question.

Best wishes  ... John

IMG_20210203_141610.jpg

Edited by rowanj
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I came across this photo while going through the various 'in build' pictures on the pc. This was/is the test build for Arthur's N10 kit, done some years ago. By the time I came to painting this one, I wanted a change from weathered black overlaid with rust, grime and muck so I did it just after a works repaint.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

P3270026.JPG

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And I did this one in ex-works condition as well. The fourth A6 - 69798 - is going through the paint shop next. So it should join 69791/5/6 fairly soon.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

P3160014.JPG

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So, what did these big North Eastern tank locos look like when they had just emerged from the paint shop after a heavy overhaul? Well here's a photo, again courtesy of Mick Nicholson, showing an A7 4-6-2 tank, resplendent in its first British Railways repaint.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

A7 69771 .jpg

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21 hours ago, mikemeg said:

So, what did these big North Eastern tank locos look like when they had just emerged from the paint shop after a heavy overhaul? Well here's a photo, again courtesy of Mick Nicholson, showing an A7 4-6-2 tank, resplendent in its first British Railways repaint.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

A7 69771 .jpg

 

Hi Mike,

Do you know what colour the number and British Railways would have been - white, cream or yellow?

I will be painting my Arthur Kimber Q5 in the same early livery and see Modelmaster have the 3 colours available.

 

Thanks,

Steve

Canada

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On 05/02/2021 at 13:11, Retro_man said:

 

Hi Mike,

Do you know what colour the number and British Railways would have been - white, cream or yellow?

I will be painting my Arthur Kimber Q5 in the same early livery and see Modelmaster have the 3 colours available.

 

Thanks,

Steve

Canada

 

Hi Steve,

 

The short answer to your question (and the long answer also) is that I am not sure.

 

The yellow numbers seem to have been used on some pre-nationalisation liveries which were perpetuated in the early days of British Railways i.e. new Peppercorn A1's and Thompson B1's delivered in  LNER apple green which had British Railways yellow numbers and markings.

 

I have always assumed that those locomotives painted/re-painted in unlined black and carrying the  name British Railways, in full, used the cream numbers and letters.

 

I had also assumed that the white numbers and letters may have been applied to some of the experimental liveries which were trialled during 1948, before the adoption of the blue livery for express passenger locos and the ex-LNWR lined black for mixed traffic types. I do know that a deep purple colour was trialled on at least one A4 during that period.

 

Another possibility is that individual locomotive works may have adopted slightly different policies on the application of liveries, during this time. Certainly that happened later in BR's existence, especially over the size of numbers  and legends used and the 'debates' over curly tailed 6's and 9's.

 

I would certainly welcome a more definitive answer from anyone who has more accurate information on BR liveries in the 1948 - 1950 period.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

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2 hours ago, mikemeg said:

 

Hi Steve,

 

The short answer to your question (and the long answer also) is that I am not sure.

 

The yellow numbers seem to have been used on some pre-nationalisation liveries which were perpetuated in the early days of British Railways i.e. new Peppercorn A1's and Thompson B1's delivered in  LNER apple green which had British Railways yellow numbers and markings.

 

I have always assumed that those locomotives painted/re-painted in unlined black and carrying the  name British Railways, in full, used the cream numbers and letters.

 

I had also assumed that the white numbers and letters may have been applied to some of the experimental liveries which were trialled during 1948, before the adoption of the blue livery for express passenger locos and the ex-LNWR lined black for mixed traffic types. I do know that a deep purple colour was trialled on at least one A4 during that period.

 

Another possibility is that individual locomotive works may have adopted slightly different policies on the application of liveries, during this time. Certainly that happened later in BR's existence, especially over the size of numbers  and legends used and the 'debates' over curly tailed 6's and 9's.

 

I would certainly welcome a more definitive answer from anyone who has more accurate information on BR liveries in the 1948 - 1950 period.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

Thanks Mike,

 

That is pretty much the same conclusion I had reached. Unless some irrefutable evidence is found in the meantime, I will be using cream.

 

I do enjoy reading your about your NER loco builds as my interests are very similar.

 

Cheers!

Steve

Canada

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Hi Mike, 

 

I think definitive is impossible for that period! Different works doing things, shortages of various sorts etc all contributing to many variations. That said I found @Headstock's contribution to Wright Writes here: 

to be a really helpful starting point.

 

Great to see you modelling again.

 

Regards,

 

Simon

 

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19 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Hi Mike, 

 

I think definitive is impossible for that period! Different works doing things, shortages of various sorts etc all contributing to many variations. That said I found @Headstock's contribution to Wright Writes here: 

to be a really helpful starting point.

 

Great to see you modelling again.

 

Regards,

 

Simon

 

 

Thank you Simon, very helpful.

 

Cheers!

Steve

Canada

 

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On 03/02/2021 at 11:39, mikemeg said:

I'm going to provoke a bit of a debate with this posting, though I hope a friendly and constructive debate. The issue is this :-

 

To what extent should a loco kit (etched or white metal) cover some or all of the detailing options which the builder might wish to incorporate? I was reminded of this by the comments of a couple of very capable and experienced modelling acquaintances who expressed conflicting views on this.

 

Personally, I always adopt the view that on every kit I build, whether a test build or from a production version, there will be details which I will want to add to increase the representation of realism i.e. some scratch building. This is almost always items of detail below the footplate but occasionally above the footplate as well.

 

Many classes of steam loco lasted for forty, fifty or even more years and went though a number of incarnations through modifications, updates, rebuilds, etc. Most etched kits will cover the major variations. But the level of detailing of cabs, backheads, piping runs, washout plugs and mudholes,  works plates, shed plates, etc. must surely be down to the individual builder. For a kit to cover all of these options would surely render it far more expensive and would prove far more wasteful on options not used.

 

So, for me, I expect to have to add detailing - i.e. some scratch building - to any kit which I build but is that representative of other kit builders?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Hello Mike, I'm a very inexperienced loco builder (currently building my second, a LRM C12) though I'd built plenty of wagons and a few coaches, but I would suggest that your question is equally applicable to any type of rolling stock, though the variations - and necessary parts - might be fewer than needed for a loco.

Like rowanj, I too enjoy researching and fabricating details not included in the kit, but I like to receive a certain amount of detail included in the box - a feeling that the manufacturer is meeting me halfway, so to speak.

There's a commercial element of course from the makers' point of view (unecnomical to provide too much detail) but providing only the bare etches and minimum castings can seem a little disappointing.

There's another aspect too, which Jol Wilkinson mentioned recently on my build thread when discussing the relatie difficulty levels of kits. He said that from the point of view of a kit designer (he has designed some of LRM's kits and others I'm sure) he knows that kit builders may feel under pressure to include in their build all the detail included in the kit, so that including a lot of detail raises the perceived difficulty level of the kit and may then contribute to lower sales. the perception with some people of kits such as those by Martin Finney being only for very experienced builders, partly because of the detail level, was  an example that came up.

I was very interested by this idea, as it hadn't occurred to me before but it's clearly a factor if the aim is to sell kits!

So, I guess I would say there's a happy medium: a reasonable level of detail, catering for perhaps two or three loco variants, but not so much as to seem daunting...

Hope this is of interest, Chas

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Hello Mike, on the subject of ex NER tank engines, here is a scratch built class U in EM gauge.   I built it for a friend over thirty years ago, painted and lined by Steve Barnfield.  It ran like a Swiss watch but my  friend decided he didn’t want it, so I kept it and so glad I did.  It was a very popular engine with my co -operators on Kirkby Malham mk 1, a small layout I used to hawk around the shows. mainly in the north and midlands.

The pic is of it on my old Canal Road layout, now partially scrapped

 

B5E9A837-72AA-4C99-A617-DF8EEF97E65A.jpeg.2f693ac7ce9c39c229414d430ddc0333.jpeg

 

Two more pics on Canal Road

 

6ADE5B95-612C-4548-8FD4-EB08E70DBBD4.jpeg.b946f1a9474a240ca52e7ad05e60de84.jpeg

 

C8A6BA55-7B60-43A6-A953-18510C9EF760.jpeg.a44b63ead8d9f1bdb934eeabbed68fd3.jpeg

 

The tracks to the right of the signal signal and telegraph post in the middle picture are my youngest sons 00, the ones to the left, my EM.

Derek

 

 

 

 

 

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