Mikemeg's Workbench - Building locos of the North Eastern & LNER

[micklner]

Mike ,

          Any idea of the radius curves  the N8, will turn in OO please ?

 

Mick

[mikemeg]

2 minutes ago, micklner said:

Mike ,

          Any idea of the radius curves  the N8, will turn in OO please ?

 

Mick

 

Mick,

 

If the chassis is assembled, as supplied, with the rear section of the mainframes swinging, then the limiting radius is likely to be governed only by how much play can be provided on the driving wheels. The rear carrying wheels will probably not impede the traversing of any radius > around 15"; perhaps even less!

 

My minimum radius is 4' 6" (B8 switches on turnouts) so I was able to make this modification to the chassis without compromising that minimum.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

[Retro_man]

On 15/01/2021 at 07:37, mikemeg said:

Someone PM'd me and and asked 'how clean do brass models keep in the airtight box'. Well, in answer to that question, all I can say is that they stay pretty clean. Assuming, of course, that they are put away into the airtight box in a clean condition!

 

But a picture says a thousand ........ So here's a photo of the test build for the D20, which has now escaped from the airtight box, after about four years imprisonment, and has also acquired a tender of its very own. Photographed just as it came out of the airtight box; no additional cleaning done - yet!

 

This model has the original profile mainframes, as built, and will become 62372 based at Selby in mid 1950 and a frequent visitor into Hull.

 

Both this model and the one shown in a posting above, have some representation of the inside motion, including the oil pots on the slide bars. Enough to fill the void 'between the frames'! This photo was taken before the rear motor shafts were cropped off on each chassis, thus allowing the motors (Mashima 1420's) to sit forward of the fitted backhead, without impeding the backhead positioning.

 

The gearbox and motor combination sit entirely within the firebox and splashers, so no further slotting is necessary in the bottom of the boiler, to accommodate any part of the gearbox. The gearbox front is therefore invisible on the underside of the models.

 

Also worth noting the narrowing of the mainframe separation, at the front end. This is because there are no bogie wheel cut-outs in the mainframes on these models, as there were none on the prototypes.

 

John (Rowan) can be blamed for this plethora of postings now appearing on this thread. Just joking, John; I am  happy to oblige!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Hello Mike,

 

I am currently building Arthur's D20 kit and was wondering how you have attached the bogie as I can see no mention of this in the instructions?

Also how did you do the pickups?

 

I am impressed by how clean and shiny you keep your work!

 

Thanks in advance,

Steve

Canada

[mikemeg]

NER Classes A, B and C

 

The photo below might be of interest to those who build models of ex North Eastern locomotives. At the rear is the near completed test build of the North Eastern Kits NER Class A - LNER F8. In the centre is the London Road Models NER Class B - LNER N8, which build has been temporarily stopped to build the Class A and also awaiting parts from High Level models, which have now become available. So the N8 build has been re-started.

 

So, what is the one at the left front of the photo? Well that is the start of a test build of a North Eastern Kits  NER Class C - LNER J21. This kit has been 'on the stocks' for a little while and is now being test built prior to release.

 

I will post a few photos and descriptions of this build as it progresses.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J21

 

First stage is obviously the footplate which, as in almost all of Arthur's kits, is formed of two layers. The bottom layer is full thickness, with a half etched upper layer which contains the detailing on the footplate. Both layers must be carefully aligned - the fitted lamp iron etch as the front alignment and the slots for the cab sides as the rear alignment. As always, it is essential that the assembled footplate is both straight and square prior to fitting the two nickel silver valance strips.

 

Once the footplate is assembled, then the centre splashers and the front sandboxes/splashers can be assembled. Again, care must be taken to ensure that the splashers are perpendicular to the footplate and that the top formers follow the profile of the upstands. 

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by mikemeg

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, mikemeg said:

NER Classes A, B and C

 

The photo below might be of interest to those who build models of ex North Eastern locomotives.

 

Is there anything about these kits that makes them unsuitable for modellers of North Eastern locomotives?

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J21

 

It is worth mentioning that with this kit, Arthur has covered a number of different features of the prototype, dependant on the timescale of the model.

 

So two different smokeboxes are included; the original saturated version and the longer superheated version.

 

For each version of the smokebox, two different wrappers are provided; one with flush rivets and one with snap headed rivets.

 

Two different forms of brake linkage are provided The original version with external pull rods, fitted outside of the wheels and the later, centrally located, single compensated pull rod.

 

Similarly, the various castings provided will allow for the different whistle arrangements and the different safety valve types fitted.

 

The cab side etches do incorporate quite a lot of detail, inside and outside, which is best added while the cab side/front etch is in the flat, as per the photographs below. It's also worth opening up all of the holes for handrail stanchions while this etch is flat, rather than when the cab is assembled.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by mikemeg

[Compound2632]

Does the kit allow for T.W. Wordell's class C, i.e. the Worsdell-von Borries compounds? As far as I'm aware the main visual feature would be the different cylinder fronts? Ditto the B?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Compound2632

[mikemeg]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

Does the kit allow for T.W. Wordell's class C, i.e. the Worsdell-von Borries compounds? As far as I'm aware the main visual feature would be the different cylinder fronts?

 

Stephen,

 

Not sure on that one but perhaps Arthur can comment. I'll check with Arthur, anyway re your question above.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J21

 

I don't have many photographs of J21's circa 1950 - the timescale of my layout - other than 65033, which is preserved. Anyway, here is a photo of 65078, taken in the early 1950's at Selby. As normal, the photo is courtesy Mick Nicholson. The photo, itself, while showing a J21, is really about the J11 on a passenger train.

 

Apparently, the continuous boiler handrail, exhibited by 65078 in this photograph, was only used on superheated boilers with the longer smokebox. On the shorter saturated smokeboxes, a separate smokebox door handrail was fitted.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by mikemeg

[drmditch]

1 hour ago, mikemeg said:

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J21

Two different forms of brake linkage are provided The original version with external pull rods, fitted outside of the wheels and the later, centrally located, single compensated pull rod.

 

 

As I understand the brake linkages, (and I have only really researched the J21s in late LNER condition), those locomotives which were fitted with 'passenger' brakes, either Westinghouse or Vacuum, had the pull rods outside the driving wheels. The rods were linked to a cross-shaft underneath the rear of the cab. Otherwise for 'unfitted' engines the brake rods were inside.

The following pictures may be of use:-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was concerned with No.5033 in 1947 condition, using a re-worked Nu-Cast kit. I am sure that Arthur's kit and your modelling skills will produce a much superior version!

However, to ask one slightly cheeky question - does the kit allow for the piston valve version, with the valves beneath the cylinders?

 

 

 

So far, mine is the only model that I have seen with this feature.

 

 

 

 

Not liking to boast of course, and I do really need to correct that dropped 5!

 

I have another J21 in hand, using a Dave Alexander kit. This one is to be in earlier condition with Joy gear.

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, drmditch said:

As I understand the brake linkages, (and I have only really researched the J21s in late LNER condition), those locomotives which were fitted with 'passenger' brakes, either Westinghouse or Vacuum, had the pull rods outside the driving wheels. The rods were linked to a cross-shaft underneath the rear of the cab. Otherwise for 'unfitted' engines the brake rods were inside.

 

That's an interesting distinction. I'd supposed that the C and C1s, with their 5'1¼" wheels, were intended as mixed traffic engines (like many similar 0-6-0s of the period such as Webb's Cauliflowers), there being plenty of Fletcher and long-boiler mineral engines around; the Ps, with 4'7¼" wheels, where the first "modern" mineral engines. But what was the logic (if any) for the difference?

[Retro_man]

On 17/11/2021 at 18:45, Retro_man said:

Hello Mike,

 

I am currently building Arthur's D20 kit and was wondering how you have attached the bogie as I can see no mention of this in the instructions?

Also how did you do the pickups?

 

I am impressed by how clean and shiny you keep your work!

 

Thanks in advance,

Steve

Canada

Hello Mike,

I have now worked out how to attach the bogie but would still like to know how you tackled the pickups on the D20.

Thanks in advance,

Steve

Canada

[drmditch]

52 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's an interesting distinction. I'd supposed that the C and C1s, with their 5'1¼" wheels, were intended as mixed traffic engines (like many similar 0-6-0s of the period such as Webb's Cauliflowers), there being plenty of Fletcher and long-boiler mineral engines around; the Ps, with 4'7¼" wheels, where the first "modern" mineral engines. But what was the logic (if any) for the difference?

 

Ken Hoole in 'An Illustrated History of LNER Locomotives' has several illustrations of Cs (and C1s) from NER days, and including engines with (apparently) no train braking , but with external pull-rods. The drawing provided (from the Engineer of 18-2-1887) of a compound engine also shows the external rods.

 

This class has a long and complex history. I suspect that the pull-rods inside the wheels were introduced when steam brakes were provided. The RCTS history , Part 5, lists those with Westinghouse or Westinghouse and Vacuum at the time of grouping.

To quote Mr Hoole, 'Originally intended for goods and mineral work, automatic brakes were not fitted until the last 30 engines appeared in 1892-5, but from then on their suitability as mixed traffic engines was realised and by grouping 136 (out of 201) engines had automatic brakes......'

 

As far as I can see, any model needs to be based on a particular engine at a particular time in it's history. That is why I chose No.5033 and a picture in Yeadon (which although in LNER livery must have been taken sometime in 1948!)

[ArthurK]

The  C class was envisaged as a mixed traffic engine rather than a purely goods loco like P class but they shared much in common. The boiler was used on other classes such as the  P1, B, B1  and U. They were not completely interchangeable as the frames on the C class were set further apart than the later NER standard of 4 feet. 

 

The Compounds of Class C had the larger cylinder on the right protruded through the frame.

 

TWW had a leaning towards the Joy  valve gear and many of the C/C1 class were so fitted. His brother hated both this and compounding and  removed these from many. Some C class retained the valves above the cylinder. These are characterised By the retention of the rectangular front cover to the valves. The superheated engines had the valves below the cylinders

The History of these changes is very complex check the LNER Green books for more deetail

 

Back to the kit. I decided to ignore the Joy variants and concentrate on those with Stephenson gear. These outlived the others and lasted through the LNER and into BR

[MarkC]

How wonderful - a 4mm model of a Class C (J21) now in brass. A 3rd kit, after Ks/Nucast and then Dave Alexander's whitemetal offerings. (Actually the 4th, as there was a limited run of a 3D printed model, only a couple of months ago). Nice one, Arthur - I suspect it'll be very popular. Sadly no good for my specific area, but never mind.

 

How many other pre-grouping classes  have had as many kit varieties in one scale?

 

Mark

 

 

[micklner]

7 minutes ago, MarkC said:

How wonderful - a 4mm model of a Class C (J21) now in brass. A 3rd kit, after Ks/Nucast and then Dave Alexander's whitemetal offerings. (Actually the 4th, as there was a limited run of a 3D printed model, only a couple of months ago). Nice one, Arthur - I suspect it'll be very popular. Sadly no good for my specific area, but never mind.

 

How many other pre-grouping classes  have had as many kit varieties in one scale?

 

Mark

 

 

Plus the LRM brass kit ! ex Norton ?

Did K's ever do a J21 ?

[MarkC]

27 minutes ago, micklner said:

Plus the LRM brass kit ! ex Norton ?

Did K's ever do a J21 ?

You're right - I had forgotten the Norton one! 5 different models then!

 

Nucast was the rebirth of Ks; IIRC the J21 was one of the first Nucast releases, but am not 100% certain whether it was a K's rebadge or in their own right. It was a long time ago,,,

[rowanj]

Mike. I'll be following the J21 build with great interest. Can you say whether the chassis build gives the option for the link to the mechanical lubricator, which was a very visual presence on many locos?

John

[ArthurK]

When  first installed on the superheated locos the drive to the lubricator was not visible. It should not be too difficult to fabricate this if desired.

 

ArthurK

[mikemeg]

Another couple of photos of J21's, both of these carrying the longer superheated smokebox. The first photo is 1946 or later as the loco carries its 1946 number and was taken at what looks like Penrith; the second photo is post Nationalisation. Note that the tender totem, on the second photo, is the smaller variety as carried by many of the smaller tank locos. As always, the photos are courtesy Mick Nicholson's collection.

 

Stephen  (Retro-man) I haven't forgotten your query and will photo the 'innards' of one of the D20's to show the pick up arrangement.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by mikemeg

[Retro_man]

2 hours ago, mikemeg said:

 

Stephen  (Retro-man) I haven't forgotten your query and will photo the 'innards' of one of the D20's to show the pick up arrangement.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Thank you Mike - it will be much appreciated!

 

Steve

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J21

 

The internal structure of the smokebox - the longer, superheated variety - has been assembled and soldered up. The boiler barrel has also been rolled and seam soldered, after which the circular nickel silver former has had an 8 BA nut attached to it and then the former is soldered into the front of the boiler wrapper recessed around 1.5 mm from the front end with the nut facing into the boiler . This will allow an 8 BA cheese headed screw to be used to pull the smokebox rear and boiler front together, once the half round brass ring is fitted to the end of the boiler wrapper.

 

I still have to 'unroll' the bottom of the firebox and then adjust the two firebox sides to the correct profile.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J21

 

After the boiler is rolled and soldered up, then the firebox sides need to be profiled. It is difficult to offer any hints or tips for this other than to take this process very slowly and check the firebox against the footplate/cab assembly constantly. I normally 'tease' the bottom of the firebox sides straight using a steel rule. Once the bottom of the firebox sides are sufficiently straight then the transition curves - to bring the straightened bottoms of the firebox sides back to vertical - can be added using an appropriate former - I use a 3/8" diameter piece of brass rod - for this operation.

 

The final check on the firebox profile is the embossed ring on the cab front. If the rear of the firebox follows the profile of this ring and if the bottom of the firebox sides align with the small vertical lugs on the footplate, then everything is about right.

 

At this stage the smokebox and boiler are simply screwed together, though nothing is finally fixed as the smokebox still needs its wrappers adding and there is a lot of detail to be added to the boiler wrapper.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by mikemeg

[rowanj]

Hi Mike. Will the released kit have the boiler pre-rolled, as is usual with Arthur's locos?

Edited November 25, 2021 by rowanj