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Mikemeg's Workbench - Building locos of the North Eastern & LNER

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Yes, very atmospheric indeed. My regular haunt on a Sunday was Newton Heath which, if I remember correctly, was a bit more gloomy than that.

For my B1, I've chosen 61159 so I need to establish the tender type for the mid 1950's.

Dave.

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10 minutes ago, Dave Holt said:

Yes, very atmospheric indeed. My regular haunt on a Sunday was Newton Heath which, if I remember correctly, was a bit more gloomy than that.

For my B1, I've chosen 61159 so I need to establish the tender type for the mid 1950's.

Dave.

 

Dave,

 

These places were almost always gloomy, often filthy but always magical.

 

I guess 61159 was one of Gorton's B1's?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

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39A until reallocated to Immingham following MSW electrification. A bog standard Vulcan B1 like 1165 up thread. No tender mods visible in the 1954 picture in EM Johnson's Woodhead pt1.

 

Simon

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2 hours ago, 65179 said:

39A until reallocated to Immingham following MSW electrification. A bog standard Vulcan B1 like 1165 up thread. No tender mods visible in the 1954 picture in EM Johnson's Woodhead pt1.

 

Simon

Got that, thank you Simon. Looks nice and clean in the photo.

Dave.

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Posted (edited)

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J72 - Long Bunker

 

Fresh out of the erecting shop and posing in photographic grey (Halfords grey primer, really) is this; Arthur's kit for the LNER J72 with the longer bunker. This kit can be built to represent any of the J72's except for the first twenty which had a shorter bunker and a different profile of mainframes. These first twenty locos are represented by Arthur's other J72 kit which is now being released.

 

This test build has been finished to represent one of the final batch of J72's built by British Railways from 1949 - 1951 characterised by the large sandboxes to the rear of the cab footsteps and the absence of visible sanding operating rods.

 

I know that this kit is in the final stages of release and Arthur can confirm the precise date of release.

 

So, the North Eastern Kits LNER J72 - longer bunker version.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

P2150014 (2).JPG

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Mike

       Is this the finished version ?

 

      Unfilled  etched slots/gaps by the cab door ? poor fit/shape saddle/smokebox area and/or a strange blob in that area, the footplate looks like there are multiple ripples along the edge ?

 

The above points of course may all be exaggerated by the camera.

 

Mick

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Posted (edited)
Quote

 

Mike used one of the first test etches for his build. I will leave him to answer the criticisms of his model but I will answer what I believe to be the major one, the unfilled fold lines. This has been rectified. The production kit does not use a dashed fold line. I spotted this problem as soon as I saw it. It now uses  a simple fold. That problem no longer exists.

 

ArthurK

Edited by ArthurK
Correction & spelling

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Posted (edited)

NORTH EASTERN KITS NER E1 / LNER J72 - Long Bunker

 

In reply to MickLNER's comments, above, I have done a little  more work on this J72. The folding slots at the rear of the cabside opening have been filled - since this test build was done, these slots have been removed from the etches on the production version. The footplate is actually ok; the previous photo was enlarged to the point where some lines began to pixilate The smokebox area was a result of the angle of the light. That said, I have straightened one or two things, which were not quite straight - the rear cab footsteps and the sandbox filler cap (the strange blob from the above comment).

 

So, hopefully, this gives a more favourable impression of this build. The kit is first class, as always, so any visible issues are down to the builder, not the kit. The reason for showing the build in grey is simply that this is the format used for the photo on the box. To show the model finished in weathered black with a 'full house' of weathering, muck and grime, would lose the detail.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

P2180014 (1).JPG

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2 hours ago, mikemeg said:

NORTH EASTERN KITS NER E1 / LNER J72 - Long Bunker

 

The reason for showing the build in grey is simply that this is the format used for the photo on the box. To show the model finished in weathered black with a 'full house' of weathering, muck and grime, would lose the detail.

 

 

Precisely why "works grey" was used for official photos of newly completed locomotives by the old railways :smileclear:

 

Lovely job as always, Mike.

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Posted (edited)

I've been building locos, solely now, for about three years. So to take a short break from the locos I have been working on a new North Eastern signal bridge. This structure stood at Hessle East, just outside Hull, until the late 1960's, though the slotted posts and lower quadrants were replaced by upper quadrants in the early 1950's.

 

As with all of my signal models, I make a detailed 4 mm drawing of the structure, with all relevant detail incorporated on the drawing, as the basis for construction. These drawings are scaled from photographs, using known dimensions (arm length, distance between 'crosses' on the lattice posts, depth of the lattice girder, etc), and also referring to an 1895 copy of the McKenzie & Holland (the company producing these lattice structures) catalogue. By this means it is possible to progressively build up the dimensions of the overall structure quite accurately. One of the photographs shows a 4mm drawing of another structure - located at Barlby near Selby - which will be modelled one day! This drawing I made in 2017, from a photograph.

 

The construction follows my standard approach with a completely scratch built lattice girder between MSE posts. The lattice girder cross members are 1.0 mm brass 'L' angle with formed curves using tiny slots, cut with a number 6.0 (the smallest cut size) blade in a jewellers piercing saw, into one leg of the 'L' at 1.0 mm intervals. A typical curve may involve making 35 - 40 such cuts each 1.0 mm from the last, after which the curve is formed and then filled with solder to restore the integrity of the 'L' angle. The vertical and diagonal struts are pieces of .8 mm x .005" nickel silver strip, each cut to fit the location. This sounds like a very long process but the whole of this lattice girder was built in two days on a purpose built jig made from multiple layers of cardboard.

 

The three dimensional jig, which is made  from multiple layers of cardboard mounted on an MDF base, took a couple of days to build, largely to allow the PVA, glueing the various layers of card, to set - and there are up to twelve layers to achieve the correct depth. Parts of the jig are painted black, simply to assist in seeing the separation of the vertical struts, which is only 0.8 mm. Only the horizontal and vertical struts are assembled in the jig. The diagonal sruts are assembled when the structure is out of the jig.

 

The posts have been 'edged' on each corner with 0.8 mm brass angle. The dolls are made from four sides of .030" plasticard with  a 0.9 mm brass rod inside each of the assembled dolls, up to the slotted section, to prevent any warping or distortion. The arms are MSE with a double thickness of etch for the spectacle plates,  the two thicknesses spaced .005" apart to allow for coloured plastic to be inserted for the spectacle glasses.

 

On this model, as these North Eastern signal arms were painted, then the model arms are also painted rather than using the thin coloured film which I use on the upper quadrant arms. The painting of the white stripes and black chevrons did involve some tricky masking but seems to have worked out ok. Then the arms were lightly weathered prior to assembling into the dolls.

 

The handrails are held onto the decking by tiny pieces of 1/32" brass tube representing the prototype castings which  performed this function. Most signal models seem to drill the handrail stanchions directly into the decking, which is not correct for these North Eastern gantries and bridges.

 

The balance levers are also slotted, approximating to prototype practice. I did also follow prototype practice in the shape and profile of the operating rods between the balance levers and the arms. Some care was taken to ensure that the arms move very freely, as the operating rods are only 0.3 mm wire and the lower quadrant arms are pushed off rather than pulled off as with upper quadrant arms. The ideal is for gravity to take over when the arms are pushed off but gravity doesn't scale too readily, so some assistance needs to be provided!

 

The handrail stanchions are, again, made from 0.3 mm brass wire and are glued into the 1/32" decking castings with a simple jig ensuring that they are all at a consistent height. Before the handrail is fitted all stanchions will be adjusted to ensure they are vertical. Few things mar a signal model more than handrails not vertical and/or horizontal.

 

Still a lot to do on this but it is starting to take shape.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

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P1010016 (2).JPG

P2040031.JPG

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8.0 piecing saw blades are obtainable from HS Walsh at either Biggin Hill or Hatton Gardens London. These blades are very useful in cutting thinner gauges of metal, although when scratch building there are other ways of achieving this.

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Mike

 

Try soldering the angle in the centre of a strip of scrap brass etch (at least 1/4" wide). Then bend both  to the  curve  required.  Then unsolder and , hey presto - angle bent in a curve!

 

ArthurK

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Posted (edited)

The two platforms, which will be attached to the dolls, have now been assembled from 0.3 mm wire, fashioned to the two different handrail profiles of the prototype and then fixed to the decking of the platforms.  The decking is made from .015" plasticard cut into 0.75 mm strips and then glued to two tiny pieces of 0.8 mm 'L' angle, after which the slats are painted to represent wood, with the metal underbracings painted black and then rusted.

 

These structures, which are only around 13 mm high, are quite delicate, so need to be handled with a little care. The photograph shows them around four times their actual size.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

P1020017.JPG

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Mike,

Very nice, impressive, looking models. No one would know they were plasticard, under the paint, unless you said.

As a matter of interest, your Bradwell B1 chassis has gone very quiet. Is the valve gear proving a bit more challenging than you hoped, or just temporary loss of interest?

Dave.

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Posted (edited)
On 31/05/2019 at 20:01, Dave Holt said:

Mike,

Very nice, impressive, looking models. No one would know they were plasticard, under the paint, unless you said.

As a matter of interest, your Bradwell B1 chassis has gone very quiet. Is the valve gear proving a bit more challenging than you hoped, or just temporary loss of interest?

Dave.

 

Dave,

 

Everything went a bit quiet as I was 'struck down' by some lurgi and then, when much improved, started a gardening project to rebuild a 12"/1 ft scale garden wall. So, one way and another, not a lot of modelling has been done. The lurgi has now more or less gone and the garden wall is more or less finished so now back to the modelling and the B1's.

 

I am at the stage where the valve gear is the next activity so no loss of interest but there was a distinct loss of energy and concentration. Doing a 'macro' project, where the smallest item is 9" x 3" x 4" (called a brick) and where the adhesive is mixed by the bucket full certainly acts as a great counterpoint to this +/- .005" modelling stuff, though perhaps not to maintaining the accuracy levels.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

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Posted (edited)

LNER T1

 

Strange thing, as the T1, in the posting above, was built nearly ten years ago and long before I was quite as determined to adhere to prototype accuracy as I now am. My old mate Mick Nicholson, very recently, turned up a photo of T1 69915, in its BR days. My model, whilst accurate for some of the T1's, in service in mid 1950, is not accurate for this loco - see photo below.

 

The buffers are different, 69915 also had the rear steps near the rear buffer beam, etc.

 

So, this model, which has been 69915 since it was built, is going to have to change its identity. To be replaced by a newer kit built version which has also been awaiting photographic evidence of its detail configuration in mid 1950. So the new one, which matches the photo details much more closely, will be 69915 and the one above will now be the subject of a little more research to establish its new identity.

 

And yes, I know, what on earth is he going to do wth two of these heavy shunters?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

T1 69915 Darlington.jpg

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2 hours ago, mikemeg said:

And yes, I know, what on earth is he going to do with two of these heavy shunters?

 

 

One coming on shed and the other going off, as they're exchanged for their turns of duty.

 

Either that or some seriously heavy shunting.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

One coming on shed and the other going off, as they're exchanged for their turns of duty.

 

Either that or some seriously heavy shunting.

 

Thanks, great suggestions!

 

One of these locos, shortly after being built, hauled a test train of some 1200 tons; so they could push or pull quite a load.

 

The model, above, was tested on a P4 circuit and we just kept loading more wagons on it. At seventy one it was still quite happily hauling them along but then one of the three link couplings, in the middle of the train, just gave up the ghost. The owner of the wagons, who wasn't me, then decided that this loco was stronger than his three link couplings and the test was concluded!

 

Interesting to compare the British Railways era photo of 69915, above, with this photo of the same loco in August 1939 - again courtesy Mick Nicholson. Much is different - flush rivetted smokebox on the earlier photo, dome shape and position, boiler type, safety valve mounting, etc.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

T1 69915. Dairycoates, August 1939.jpg

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Posted (edited)

I might have to re-title this thread to encompass more than just North Eastern loco building. Some time ago I did undertake to produce a 4 mm drawing of another of these quite extraordinary North Eastern signal bridges to post on another thread, covering the building of 4 mm signal models, which is a joint effort with my old mate, Mick Nicholson. Anyway, I'll post the progress on here, also, just to illustrate that I haven't abandoned the modelling, but I must now catch up on a couple of outstanding drawing/writing commitments. Jol/John - yours is the other being worked on!

 

Attached below is a photograph of this signal bridge - dated 1937 - which remained in use until 12.01 am, July 27th, 1954, on the lines into and out of Hull's Paragon Station immediately before (in the up direction) the line split into the three routes out of Hull plus the line into/out of Botanic Gardens locomotive depot. The routes out were, from left to right, Selby/Doncaster, Beverley (which split at Beverley into York and Scarborough), and beyond the overbridge and not visible, Hornsea/Withersea. In the down direction, i.e. into the station, each down line had two options as per the line diagram.

 

As well as the standard dimensions on these things, which are known, the North Eastern/LNER line diagram; seemingly portending the imminent demolition of this structure with the wavy line - again courtesy Mick Nicholson - does give the spans of the two parts of this bridge - 31' 1 1/2" and 31' 2 1/2". So from those dimensions we can deduce that the lattice girder is 1' 9" deep. Using the known dimensions, then it is possible to 'estimate'/deduce all of the other relative dimensions to an accuracy of around 99%, which would only be challenged if someone does have a detailed drawing of the subject. There are very few actual scale drawings existing for these things but these line diagrams, containing all sorts of useful data, are a tremendous help.

 

And just look at that track layout before the overbridge and how tidy it all appears! And yes, I do have a great fondness for these incredible structures. They were just functional pieces of signalling equipment and yet were extraordinarily elegant examples of late Victorian/Edwardian design and engineering. They just looked the part!

 

Cheers

 

MIke

 

WESTPARADE 1937.JPG

WEST PARADE Signal bridge.jpg

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Posted (edited)

So, on the third attempt at this drawing, after about eight hours of sketching, sizing and calculation, followed by five hours of drawing, the bridge structure is drawn and now I start to draw the dolls; all twelve of them. Finally the various deckings, balconies, ladders, balance levers and operating rods and wires will be added

 

I'll post another photo when this drawing is complete. If the drawing looks slightly out of skew in the photograph, that is because I photographed it using the dgital camera hand held. So there may be a little parallax . The construction lines are there to ensure that everything is level or perpendicular.

 

If you look at the prototype photograph, above, then notice how the doll second from the left is decidedly out of perpendicular; it leans to the right. If I draw it that way, then everyone will notice and many will comment on the error in the drawing. However, straightening this doll up does mean that the arms on it are then very close to the spectacle plates on the leftmost adjacent doll.

 

I had this 'feature' on the G5 models, where by 1950 - the time of the models - photos showed most of them had distinctly bowed footplates. Modelling them like that wouldn't have worked.

 

I guess it goes without saying that these drawings demand as much, if not more concentration than making the models.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

P2080018.JPG

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Posted (edited)

Almost there with this drawing, though Messrs Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, etc. are a major distraction.

 

The colour of the paper hasn't changed but the incident light has. I do hope I don't have to build this one, what with twelve dolls and twenty two arms. Mind you, what a model it would make. Every dimension on this drawing should be correct for 4 mm. So just measure with the metal rule for each dimension, is the plan!

 

I know that this could be built from a much less detailed and simpler drawing but, what the hell, they're worth drawing properly!

 

Once complete, then I'll also post this on the signalling thread.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

P2100019 (1).JPG

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Posted (edited)

So after about eight hours of checking and sizing from the single photograph, followed by around twenty five hours of drawing, all of the basic structure is drawn.

 

Looking at the photograph, I did wonder why the rightmost doll was significantly lower than all of the rest; given that the route signalled was of equal precedence. It was only when I drew this that I found that the S&T folks had to do this, as they could only space the two rightmost dolls at 5' 6" centres, using the rightmost post to accommodate that doll. All of the other full size dolls are spaced at 6' 0" centres. This means that to allow the arms to swing down to their lower position, on the doll, second from the right  and clear the lamps on the adjacent doll, the arms and lamps on the rightmost doll had to be lowered by around 3' 6" so as not to impede that swing.

 

If I had any concerns with the relative sizing and spacing on this structure, then this confirmed those measurements and assumptions.

 

Now, just a few details to complete and to add and the drawing is done.

 

I find that by doing these drawings, the resulting models can very quickly and easily be checked to ascertain that they have the look and feel of the prototypes. If they don't, then they are re-done until they do!!

 

Anyway, this drawing phase has been the first step on every signal model I have made, which is why I have featured the drawing phase on this thread. And all of the drawings are now carefully kept.

 

Cheers

 

MIke

 

P2130020.JPG

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