Small sailing vessels - market research for a scratch-aid kit

[The White Rabbit]

As some of you know, I have an interest in modelling small craft and seaside/quayside scenes as well as model railways. I'm planning to commission some parts for models of small sailing vessels for my own layout. I have a variety of plans/'lines' for small craft from 16' to c60' and am currently musing what types to model. Something similar to a Brixham Trawler would probably suit me but I am looking at several designs, varying in size and geographical origin.

 

The theory is I will produce some plans for a laser cutter to use to produce a keel and ribs, and if possible a transom and half deck sections, probably in Rowmark, as a scratch-aid kit. The actual [full hull] vessel(s) would be finished by using plastic section strip to build up a clinker-built timber hull or paper and dope for a steel hull. And, yes, this will take time and require some skill but I doubt there's enough of a market to justify trying to produce a proper plastic kit. 

 

So, are any members provisionally interested in this? I model in 1:76 but if there's enough interest in other scales, we could cut a run of parts in another scale. 

 

Cost and timescale - I don't know yet. I have a few laser cutting projects in mind and would like to combine the timing of these to reduce costs. If no-one replies, I'll just go ahead by myself sometime this summer, but if you are interested, reply, PM me or send me an e-mail, indicating what type of vessel, quantity & scale. At the moment, the priority is gauging the interest in different types of small craft. In the future we might sell some of these scratch-aid kits through the business but if you want the same type of craft I'm going to ask for anyway, for myself, I would be happy to work on a 'at cost & postage' basis. And the more of us that want a model, the cheaper the unit cost... 

[Happy Hippo]

I'm really interested in sailing dinghies and day boats.

 

Anything from 12 to 20 feet in length, but as I'd like to make these in 1:12 scale, they are no small task!

 

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/osb-2512_sml.jpg

 

This Mirror dinghy is the sort of thing that I'm looking for.

 

I used to sail a lot, and the Mirror was the first boat I built from a kit.  Yes, in those days you could buy a full sized plywood kit.

 

However, doing stuff like this in 4mm is for a completely different market.

 

I'd suspect that small dinghies would be the sort of thing much better left to the 3D printer brigade.

 

Like you, if I want anything special done these days I go down to the laser cutters or the photo etchers, both are resident on our local industrial estate, and give them a .dxf file with the quantities required.

 

Good luck with the project, I'd really like to see the finished results.

[GWR88]

I really like the sound of this idea. I was looking to build a car float type thing for my upcoming On30 (O gauge narrow gauge) layout I'm hoping to start soon but all the parts I wanted were in America. Basically the kinda stuff I needed were tie downs, rope bollards, steering wheels etc and I think those would be applicable to any type of boat. If you need general ideas for stuff for little boats might be: lobster traps, oars, bench seats, rudders (if your modelling full hulls), Various wheels and oar locks maybe. I hope these ideas help.

All the best,

Lloyd

[Guy Rixon]

If you did a Humber keel in 2mm scale I'd buy one, possibly two. I'd prefer 1:152 but British N scale would do.

[The White Rabbit]

Thanks for the replies & PMs.

 

Whilst I'm looking at 4mm, then if the parts are laser-cut, resizing them to 1:148 or 1:152 (or any other scale) should be straightforward maths/software for the laser-cutter. I wasn't thinking about 1:12 scale but if there's sheet material of the right thickness, never say never! 

 

Given the amount of spare time I have (not much!) and the time it will probably take to produce a proper plan for the laser-cutter, I suspect I'll try one design first and then if it works, follow it later with more designs. Current thinking is that I'd like to do a barge/lighter type of small coaster (whether a Severn Trow, Humber Keel or another?) and one or two fishing vessels. Whether the reality will turn out like that I wouldn't like to say! 

 

Any other comments or requests, let me know, it's going to be a few weeks before I do any more than some preliminary thinking & sketching. 

[billbedford]

I think that if you are going to do clinker built boat the models would need to be built over a solid former.

[Edwardian]

Well, I appear to exist in a former age, so do not expect to find boats to fit my needs (save for Langley's Paddle Steamer, which is rather out of reach).  

 

I keep hoping that someone will do a 3-Island tramp steamer of the sort built c.1890-1914, but which, provided they weren't torpedoed, went on forever and would have been seen post-war.

 

But, you asked for views on small sailing vessels.  I would have thought that you could hardly do better than you own first suggestion, a Brixham Trawler.  I'd have one in 4mil like a shot.  

[J C Fenton]

Brixham trawler, Thames barge, Norfolk Wherry - not necessarily in that order!

[D6775]

Some kind of Trawler in 4mm might interest me, when I eventually get chance to build my layout I could probably use a couple in the Harbor.

 

Cheers,

Al.

[PhilJ W]

Brixham trawler, Thames barge, Norfolk Wherry - not necessarily in that order!

There is/was a kit for a Thames Barge produced by a Dutch company to 1/80 scale. They seem to be produced in batches every few years. This is a wooden kit with a shaped and finished wooden hull. There as a 00 kit advertised on e-bay, not one of the kits mentioned, item # 181794122821.

[Edwardian]

Oh, yes, a Norfolk wherry would be very useful.

[The White Rabbit]

The Brixham Trawler does seem to be a favourite and I have lines for several types. It's high on the shortlist, both re demand and feasibility. There are some others I'd like to do but I don't currently have enough information and/or plans. 

 

I don't want to duplicate anyone else's efforts. Artitec do some boats & ships - http://www.artitec.nl/index.php/en/kits/category/h0-ships and I may well try their 'shrimp cutter' (as well as this project). 

 

Langley have some of their own and also stock some Artitec http://www.langley-models.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Boats__Ships__Artitec___Langley__35.html including Artitec's 'traditional sailing boat' which is claimed has a reasonable likeness to a Thames Barge (with the addition of a mizzen?)

 

Whatever the decision(s), if I don't do your choice, if I have plans, I'm happy to PM you them for you to have a go yourself. 

[bgman]

Interesting subject and certainly one which has lead me down a different path.

Having never built a vessel of any description, apart from the usual Airfix etc models when I was younger I decided to do some research some years ago and took the plunge.

The following photos are a result of my journey onto the high sea of boat building. All were scratch built from mainly 1mm ply sheet which I found to be very forgiving yet sturdy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've throughly enjoyed the research just as much as the building and it does give you another string to that modelling elbow

Edited July 23, 2015 by bgman

[Edwardian]

Whoa - some real modelling there and so well executed.  Lovely.

[bgman]

Whoa - some real modelling there and so well executed.  Lovely.

Thank you Edwardian, I've also got this one on the back burner, it's a hybrid German "Edwardian " paddle steamer. It may or may not be placed on my proposed early German layout ( all work in progress).

 

 

Once again it's mainly made out of 1mm ply and brass.

 

Happy sailing everybody !

[Edwardian]

All I can say is "I WANT ONE!"

 

I have a real thing for paddle steamers - must find a water-based scenario for a future project and have a go.

 

Truly inspirational stuff here.

 

I don't often gush, but I think your models are exceptional.

[bgman]

All I can say is "I WANT ONE!"

 

I have a real thing for paddle steamers - must find a water-based scenario for a future project and have a go.

 

Truly inspirational stuff here.

 

I don't often gush, but I think your models are exceptional.

Kind words Edwardian thank you.

To be quite honest I was apprehensive to begin with but if you bite the bullet I feel it is no harder than building a brass loco kit.

With a bit of research and some reasonable plans it is possible to produce most vessels. My analogy is it is just like putting the skin on a skeleton!

If you only want a waterline model then with the shape of the base you lay the formers onto it and follow them with the hull sides, hence my reason for using 1mm ply. It can be fairly forgiving if bent carefully between finger and thumb or steamed with the kettle to get a shape you require, and not as sharp as rolling a brass boiler !

If you forget the time which is your own then the cost of a few sheets of ply and any scrap brass plasticard it is a cheap alternative to purchasing an off the shelf vessel, assuming you can find one in the scale that you want !

Maybe give it a go, you may well surprise yourself !

Thank you also to everyone that has ticked the boxes

Edit spelling

Edited July 24, 2015 by bgman

[The White Rabbit]

Looking at the dates from earlier (and flinching, where does the time go?), I'd just like to say this is still on the to-do list. Sorry for the delay. For various reasons, the last few years have been very busy and I've not had a lot of time to do much modelling. But I'm still keen, so as soon as I can, I'll get back to this. 

[Schooner]

Inveterate dock-botherer, dead keen to support any development of 1:76 kits.

 

Pleasantly surprised to see such strong calls for a sailing trawler - even a model of Brixham station itself could barely feature them and although numerous then tended to hang about together - and nice to see other types mentioned. They really would add so much to the quay scenes so many are keen on modelling. No more the Puffer and 70ft  modern midlands narrow boat!

 

@bgman Those really are spectacular, and wonderful choices. I've made plans for layouts that lean all three of those types, with the Severn Trow being of current concern! What scale? Do I understand rightly that you took the frame dimension from plans, and then planked up from those? Beautiful.

 

@The White Rabbit Anything that can be done to lend a hand, please do say here and I'd be pleased to help if possible.

 

Offering some unsolicited broad-brush thoughts, and despite the enthusiasm for offshore fishing craft seen above, I think it's fair to assume that smaller coasters would be the best fit for the majority of layouts? I wonder if it might be possible to reduce the working craft of Britain to one or two typical types per coast, with the aim of helping to set time and place for a layout quayside. All these vessels could be seen in their hudreds up until the First World War, and were not uncommon until the Second World War, with some continuing into the 1970s. Their working lives were expected to be 20-30 years, but often exceeded 50 and there were centurian examples of each type mentioned below. The tired-looking dumb barge taking the ground under the railway embankment on the Teign as a Castle thunders by in 1930 might just have run supplies to Nelson's blockading squadron off Brest in her youth and carried the stone from quarry to the same embankment in her prime...

 

Some suggestions for coasters then, with photos of survivors:

(Note: 'Depth' refers to depth of hold, 'draft' to how far below the waterline the lowest bit of the boat sits.)

 

North East - The Humber

Inshore: Humber Sloop 

Hull form as with the Keel (double-ended, bluff, hard round turn of bilge, slab sided, gentle sheer; decked fore and aft, narrow gangways between) but fore-and-aft rigged with main- and headsail. Typically up to c.68'x17'x8' depth. Largely seen in the Humber, but good for trips from the Tyne to the Thames or Continent.

 

Coaster: Goole/Humber Billyboy*

The true coaster of the area, keeping the family resemblance with the Keel but even beamier, rounder in the bow and with a more pronounced sheer and deeper bulwarks - a requirement of her offshore work. Leeboards were typical, likewise wheel steering and a 'clipper' cutwater. c.60-70' x 17-18' x 7-8' depth. Variously rigged, with the more common clinker-built sloops of c.1850 becoming displaced by a ketch rig, often with square topsails and a well-steeved bowsprit carrying two or three jibs, on a carvel-built hull through the century.

 

*After the support given by Hulll men to William of Orange.

Loads of good info and photos here.

 

South East - the Thames

Well, it can only be the sprittie barge! I don't think much needs said, they're well known, got everywhere, and I'm amazed there aren't more (any?) available in 1:76. Cambria traded under sail alone until 1970, and many were motorised. That being so, here's a cracking high-res picture of Blue Mermaid, a new but engineless barge who aims to start carrying cargo in 2021, getting along. Note the skipper and mate by the wheel, likely the only two on board:

The barges of the Thames and surrounding estuaries are legion (stumpies, swimmies, boomies, stackies etc) and a large topic but a sprittie, about 83'x20'x6' laden draft, would suit any East or South coast quay 1850-1950.

 

Honourable mention for an inshore craft (although the smaller barges got surprisingly far inland) go to the Norfolk Wherry, the double-ended clinker-built inshore carrier of the Broads, propelled by a huge single gaff sail on a single lowering mast, stepped well forward. Both spars c. 40' of English larch (earlier) or imported pitch-pine (later), the hull up to c.60' x 16'  x 5' depth. It's worth noting that the extant Albion is the only known carvel-built wherry and so any model would be better based on Maud:

 

South Coast - Solent

A tricky area for this approach - the local merchant craft were largely engaged in the local dispersal of goods from Southampton, or attached to Portsmouth in some way or other, and the quays were full of vessels a rum collection of small craft and coasters from the East and West - so I'm going to ignore it and move on.  

 

South West - Tamar

 Inshore: Tamar Barge (outside barge)

Beamy and shallow, with flat floors and a hard turn of bilge (so common in the capacity-conscious inshore boats), with a rather elegant raked bow negated by a flat sheer, and with a transom that was high, broad and flat. The outside barges (which traded from Plymouth to the Solent, Channel Isles and Falmouth) had low bulwarks and were cutter (earlier) or ketch (later) rigged with a running bowsprit. The smaller inside barges (trading North of Plymouth breakwater) often had no bulwarks at all, carried no topmast on their tabernacle-stepped masts. Up to c.60' x 18' x 6' would be typical. The Mayblossom and the Shamrock traded under motor and sail into the 1950s. Because I'm biased, here's a pic of each remaining barge - the inside barge Lynher and the outside bage Shamrock:

 

 

Coasters: West Country Trading Ketches

Handsome little vessels, the white vans of their day, with fixed bowsprits carrying a full quiver of headsails, a clipper bow, full sections rising to a counter stern. A larger and more diverse group than perhaps any others we've covered so far, and although a 'typical' ketch certainly existed there's not the same equivalence as there is between their Eastern sisters in trade, the Thames barges. Their home waters tell in their shape, with typical dimensions being something like 65-85' on deck (up to c.120' including bowsprit) x 20-25' x 9-12' draft. Found from the UK to New Zealand, from the early 1800s up until the 1930s, with one or two keeping going into the '50s. The lovely Bessie Ellen shown below:

 

South West - Severn

Inshore: Severn Trow

The downstream trow*, a development that unlike many other types was complemented by the coming of the railways for they were set up for the coal trade and thrived into the 1920s with the development of Gloucester, Sharpness, Avonmouth, Barry, Cardiff and Swansea docks. A most distinctive hull shape, characterised by bowsprit to carry a jib, boomed staysail, raised foredeck and quarter but lacking sidedecks or bulwarks. The freeboard was made up by canvas 'side cloths' carried on metal stanchions set into the hatch coamings. No fixed keel either **, very flat in the floors, and very sharp in the turn of bilge and a huge D-shaped transom bringing them to a close. Typical dimensions hint at their trips up the various navigations connected to the Severn: perhaps 70' x 17' x 6' depth of hold. Smack rigged for the smaller boats, ketch rigged for the larger. Although by 1890 nominally restricted East of the Watchet-Barry Island, there's plenty of photographs of the larger flush-decked trows throughout the Bristol Channel. Anyway, here's Spry 

 

*A truly different beast to the more ancient 'upriver' trow, between whom little but name is shared

** Most carried a detachable keel which could be chained in place. Thus even the small wych barges (carrying salt from Droitwich) were known to sail direct to markets in France. Madness.

 

Coaster: Topsail schooner - West Country

The archetypal British merhant vessel, born of a deep sea trade and tradition and found around the world wherever there was water to float and paying cargo to take. Almost every shipbuilding river in Devon, Cornwall and South Wales had their own take on the basic formula, most obvious in bow and stern forms. However, between 85-105' x 21-24' x 10-13' draught (aft, perhaps 8'-10' forward) would be typical. Mostly two-masted originally (say 1880), the progression normally followed a pattern: re-rigged with three masts (1900 - more smaller sails made for easier handling, which made for smaller crews, which made for more profitable trips), had engines fitted and lost square topsails (1910), lost their topmasts altogether (1920), and eventually all their rig to continue as motor boats (1940-50). The Kathleen and May is the sole survivor of a fleet of thousands (and even she can't justify crossing her yards):

 

North West - Mersea

Inshore: Mersea Flat

A hugely strong open barge, very round ("apple-cheeked") in the bow, with matching round or transom stern. Very flat sheer and flat bottom. Typically 60-65' x 15'x 7' to fit through the waterways connected with the Mersey, the Wever flats were larger (90'x21'x10'), and both types could be seen between the Dee and Whitehaven. Mostly rigged as sloops,  with a 40'x12" boom and with a square stopsail for coasting. Survivors are the Oakdale (shown) and Mossdale, although it is not likely either of them were ever rigged as steam towage was so common.

 

Coaster - Topsail Schooner

Related to those of the South West, but of a distinct branch are those topsail schooners of Porthmadog, Runcorn and the North West. Fuller, heavier, shallower and with less drag (draft foreward more similar to draft aft) than their cousins, these were boats squarely aimed at the home coasting trade. Volume of cargo - earning capacity - was prioritised over sailing ability (although they were capable enough), which also gave a hull form cheaper to build and maintain. The distinctive stern is perhaps their most obvious feature one would see on a model:

 

Oops, that got out of hand...just some thoughts for inspiration really!

 

Cheers and gone  

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Schooner
Pics replaced, typos remain

[phil_sutters]

At the smaller end of the sizes, the Zvezda Medieval Lifeboat is a beautifully detailed whaler-sized boat at 76mm oa. https://www.wonderlandmodels.com/products/zvezda-172-medieval-life-boat/ . It has one or two elements that need adaptation, but the hull, gratings, seats etc are finely moulded.

I certainly would have liked a small Severn sailing coaster for Highbridge Wharf. As it was I hacked about a 1/85th HMS Beagle, which had a hull of roughly the right shape. 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by phil_sutters
Additional info

[bgman]

8 hours ago, Schooner said:

Severn Trow being of current concern! What scale? Do I understand rightly that you took the frame dimension from plans, and then planked up from those? Beautiful.

 

Hi Schooner,

 

Thank you for your kind comments, the Trow was built using a miniature version of a real build by laying down a keel / frames etc and then planking them. My main source was an excellent book called Severn Trader by Colin Green and using the diagrams from there, well worth purchasing just for the read.

 

The Thames Barge was taken from a basic free plan in a magazine and re-scaled to suit. All models are done in a similar manner using 1mm ply for planking and 2mm for the frames, the remains parts were all scratch built.  The scales are 1:43 and I had intended to use them on a 7mm layout but they are now display models.

 

G

[PhilJ W]

9 hours ago, Schooner said:

Inveterate dock-botherer, dead keen to support any development of 1:76 kits.

 

South East - the Thames

Well, it can only be the sprittie barge! I don't think much needs said, they're well known, got everywhere, and I'm amazed there aren't more (any?) available in 1:76. Cambria traded under sail alone until 1970, and many were motorised. That being so, here's a picture of Blue Mermaid, a new but englineless barge who aims to start carrying cargo in 2021, getting along. Note the skipper and mate by the wheel, likely the only two on board:

The barges of the Thames and surrounding estuaries are legion (stumpies, swimmies, boomies, stackies etc) and a large topic but a sprittie, about 83'x20'x6' laden draft, would suit any East or South coast quay 1850-1950.

 

 

 

Oops, that got out of hand...just some thoughts for inspiration really!

 

Cheers and gone  

 

I have a wooden kit for a Thames Barge thats 1:80 scale. It has been in my stash for many years awaiting a round tuit. It is/was produced by a Dutch company and I recall some re-appearing on sale a few years ago. Being slightly underscale is not a problem as variations in scale are not readily obvious on ships as they would be on railway rolling stock.

3 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

At the smaller end of the sizes, the Zvezda Medieval Lifeboat is a beautifully detailed whaler-sized boat at 76mm oa. https://www.wonderlandmodels.com/products/zvezda-172-medieval-life-boat/ . It has one or two elements that need adaptation, but the hull, gratings, seats etc are finely moulded.

I certainly would have liked a small Severn sailing coaster for Highbridge Wharf. As it was I hacked about a 1/85th HMS Beagle, which had a hull of roughly the right shape. 

IIRC HMS Beagle was converted from a collier brig, a very similar vessel to what you converted it too.

The Zvezda lifeboat is a very good model and a few near identical vessels could be seen in use until quite recently.

 

[Andy Hayter]

The Artitec model Tjalk can with less or more modification be made to look like a UK sailing barge.

 

https://www.artitecshop.com/en/tjalk-two-brothers.html

 

 

[bgman]

8 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

The Artitec model Tjalk can with less or more modification be made to look like a UK sailing barge.

 

https://www.artitecshop.com/en/tjalk-two-brothers.html

 

 

 

Its a nice model I have to agree but will need some very careful modification to look like a Thames Barge.

 

That said they were used for various cargos and one was berthed close to me in Exeter some years ago and also in Plymouth so it is a possibility that one could be seen in other British ports ?

 

G

[Andy Hayter]

I don't think you can make a Thames barge out of it since the back end becomes very cramped to get that mizzen mast in.  I tried but decided to leave it as a sprit sail single master.  A reasonable representation of a Humber sloop.