Crochat locos on Salins du Midi?

[rue_d_etropal]

I have just designed a 3D printed model of the 50cm gauge Crochat  petrol electric locos no on the CF de Tarn. I noticed from info on website that they came from Salins du Midi(Aude). Just wondering if anyone has more info, especially photos.

The preserved locos look like they have been modified slightly.

[Fat Controller]

Salins du Midi stopped operations at the Aude site about a decade ago, apparently; in the last couple of years, someone else has taken over the site, and it's resumed operations. The locos would have worked down the narrow causeways separating the salt pans, hence their restricted width. Looking at the tourist site, there might still be some railway presence on site, as it suggests there are guided visits on 'un petit train' (though this might be a road train, I suppose).

Here's a video showing the pans:-

The alarming pink-red colour of the brine is due to the presence of large numbers of shrimps.

[rue_d_etropal]

Interesting. The current tourist train is almost certainly a road train. It is even more interesting as it is closer to my house than the CF de Tarn, so would make an interesting project. I checked one of my books on industrial railways of France and nothing in it, a pity. I would expect photos of the line during its operating time to be around somewhere. According to one site, the locos were built during WW1, and sold to the Salin du Midi in 1919. Amazing to have actually survived at all.

[Fat Controller]

Interesting. The current tourist train is almost certainly a road train. It is even more interesting as it is closer to my house than the CF de Tarn, so would make an interesting project. I checked one of my books on industrial railways of France and nothing in it, a pity. I would expect photos of the line during its operating time to be around somewhere. According to one site, the locos were built during WW1, and sold to the Salin du Midi in 1919. Amazing to have actually survived at all.

I wonder if the locos were built originally for the railways within the various citadels, such as Verdun?

I've not visited this Salins du Midi site, but I did visit the one at the mouth of the Rhône many years ago. This was originally served by a railway running northwards, which had closed some time immediately pre or post WW2. However, a rail link was maintained, using a cable-hauled train ferry across the river; we watched this in use from the parallel road ferry. The eastern terminal was connected to the network of lines serving the various industries around Fos-sur-Mer. We actually (and unwittingly) camped on the track-bed of the former station; between ballast and mossies it was not the best night's sleep I ever had.

[rue_d_etropal]

Was the Rhone one the one served by the CF de Camargue. Sounds like it. I have been researching that line and intend another model project. Electrified metre gauge makes a change from steam/diesel.The lines finally closed in the 1950s. It had not helped that the allies had blown up the railway bridge connecting the transhipment depot with the main line. I think this is one reason for the transfer to the line on the other side of the Rhone.

Not sure why the Crochat locos were built. Info says they were built in 1918. Crochat supplied a lot of different locos at the time, including 50cm, 60cm(best known) and standard gauge.

[Fat Controller]

Was the Rhone one the one served by the CF de Camargue. Sounds like it. I have been researching that line and intend another model project. Electrified metre gauge makes a change from steam/diesel.The lines finally closed in the 1950s. It had not helped that the allies had blown up the railway bridge connecting the transhipment depot with the main line. I think this is one reason for the transfer to the line on the other side of the Rhone.

Not sure why the Crochat locos were built. Info says they were built in 1918. Crochat supplied a lot of different locos at the time, including 50cm, 60cm(best known) and standard gauge.

It was served by the CF de Camargue; was the bridge you mention the one at Arles?

[rue_d_etropal]

yes the bridge was the branch line which ran west towards St Giles.

I have driven round the area a bit as my brother lives over towards St Remy, just beyond where the tourist line runs from Arles(although I have not seen much activity recently).

I had assumed the line down to St Marie was standard gauge as much of the embankment still exists, but when I ,not only found out it was metre gauge and electrified, I knew I wanted to build part of it.

The station next to the main road bridge in Arles still exists, so I had passed it many times without knowing. There are loads of good photos online, I just need to visit Arles to take some door/window measurements. I only plan to build the buffer end of the station , to include the station building and the remains of the water tower. I have the magazine article from the 70s, and as some of the salt wagons went to the Cf de la Mure, there are plans of those wagons. I still need to know colours of locos and stock. Oddly there is nothing in the article concerning this. Its a choice between green or red, probably. I need to do a drawing of the #modern Decauville coaches. I have the dimensions so it should be possible , even for me. I intend to 3D print the locos and rolling stock, so my design software will do the drawings based on my designs.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have been involved with the Aude for more than 40 years and had no idea that there were railways in the salt lagoons. Fascinating!

 

I did know that many Crochat locos were built for WW1 and then passed to other uses. ScaleLink planned to make one in 1:32 scale as part of its WW1 range but I don't recall if it happened. We went to measure a Crochat that was "stuffed" at an army base near Versailles.

[Andy Hayter]

50cm gauge seems very strange.  The WW1 front line railways were 60cm and the standardised gauges for use in France were defined as 60cm, 75cm (although hardly used if at all), metre and standard gauge.

[rue_d_etropal]

Only can presume it was an industrial system under military control, or involved in war work.  According to the CF de Tarn website, all the stock went to the preserved line, and it was because it was 50cm that they decided to build the preserved line as 50cm gauge not 60cm as the original line.

Given the effect of salt it is still amazing the locos survived for 50 years in use, and are actually now approaching their centenary.Maybe that will trigger some new articles or a book.

Edited July 21, 2015 by rue_d_etropal

[Andy Hayter]

Just found a article on the CF du Tarn which has a B&W photo of the Crochat loco.  Based on that picture and the greyscale, I don't think it can have been red at that time,  (Loco Revue April 1979).  They didn't mention the gauge.

[rue_d_etropal]

Andy I was actually wondering what the colour was on the Camargue line. All b/w photos. There was a book printed 10 years ago9now out of print and difficult to find), but the magazine was from 1978 called Chemins de Fer Regionaux et Urbans. I was sent some scans of the article, and I suspect the book was based on this (50 page) article. Luckily I was pointed to a copy on eBay so now have a proper copy of the magazine.

When the book came out there was a local touring exhibition, which unfortunately I did not know about. Photos of the exhibition suggest it was the same photos published elsewhere online.  I plan to write an article myself, but probably won't be able to use the photos. The loco and coach drawings I will be doing myself as the plans are only original manufacturers , not what actually got built, and the Decauville coach has no drawings at all. All this started with talk about water carrying wagons, and being pointed to an article in MRN . It was actually one of the first copies of MRN I had bought.

The Crochat locos on the CF de Tarn are now in red/white(well one is ). There is also a b/w photo on one page which looks like when they first arrived. Not certain on colour, but big numbers on non door side of cab.

The more I think about it, the more I want to know. With the locos coming up to being 100 years old, there might be some interest.

I am initially planning to use a model of one of the locos on my layouts inspired by the film and TV series of MASH, so Asia not southern France. That is assuming the chassis will go round my sharp curves(Fleischmann 25cm radius). I have many ideas for mini layouts so it is quite possible something based in France will follow on. Another fictional salt works in the Camargue would nicely combine two ideas of mine, but it would be in 5.5mm/ft using 9mm gauge for the Crochat loco.

[rue_d_etropal]

Found this , with what looks a photo of some of the wagons in background.

http://www.route-bleue.com/chroniques/item/1343-les-carnets-du-parc-pnr-la-narbonnaise

 

Also looks like there might be a book. Could not find it on Amazon though.

 

Photos showing the locos when they arrived on CF de Tarn, show they were painted a sort of yellow with white upper on cab.

Edited July 23, 2015 by rue_d_etropal

[rue_d_etropal]

just got the book from France.
Actually quite good, and if I work through the French there is a lot of info about the salt works.
There is the photo which is on the website, as well as a slight distance view showing a Crochat loco and wagons on the salt flats(?) .
The wagons, like in the other photo look like simple box wagons, 4 wheelers. Interesting there are also some photos showing standard tipper wagons, but no other photos of locos.
I think there is enough to make something interesting. Something for the 100 year birthday of the locos.
 

[rue_d_etropal]

Just re-opening this thread.

Having got as far as I could with research on Cf de Camargue, and finally getting hold of a copy of the book written over 10 years ago. 

There wasn't much new for me, but there was a photo of a Crochat loco and (salt?) wagons in the book, but no mention where it was taken.  I presume it is in ths saltworks in the Camargue not the Midi. Also it looks like it has an open cab. The railway is described only as a 'Decauville' one, but that is often the general name given to narrow gauge lines like this, and loco is not a Decauville built one.

Now I remember on one of the discussions here, and also I think I found something also online, a mention of these locos being transported to other salt works. I think there was a mention of one further along the coast towards the Camargue, but maybe they also were used on the Camargue salt works line.

If these locos were indeed used on the Camargue system, then it would be an amazing coincidence for me, as before I got interested oin the CF de Camargue,I was searching for info on the metre gauge lines near to Narbonne.

 

I think I have found more info. I have a copy of Industrial Locomotives of South Western France, and it i in here that it mentions the movements of these locos.

As book is about south western France, it is possible there were other saltworks , which would be covered ib South Eastern copy . I have a fealing I have that copy somewhere.

 

just found copy, and it only mentions metre gauge being used by the Camargue saltworks, which does not explain the inclusion of a photo of a crochat loco in the Camargue book.

There is a photo of a Crochat and salt wagons. Again loco seems to either have open cab or none at all, but it is not clear which saltworks as it could be Salines du Djibouti at Frontignan.

Edited June 16, 2021 by rue_d_etropal

[Reno]

[Reno]

And in colour.....

 

[Nearholmer]

Does anyone know of a source (likely a contemporary engineering journal or patent) showing the workings of the “systeme crochat” in detail? A schematic diagram and explanation ideally.

I’m very keen to compare it with the control arrangements of other contemporary PE systems, if I can.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Nearholmer

[rue_d_etropal]

the open cab is interesting None of the photos of the locos when they arrived at the CF du Tarn show them with open cabs.

For more info about the locos I would suggest contacting the CF du Tarn. When I first did my 3D print the presesident contacted me concerning a small error in my model, which I fixed. Also I seem to emember Sarah Wright publishing something about these locos, after the book she published about the railway itself.

[Andy Hayter]

On 23/07/2021 at 17:02, Nearholmer said:

Does anyone know of a source (likely a contemporary engineering journal or patent) showing the workings of the “systeme crochat” in detail? A schematic diagram and explanation ideally.

I’m very keen to compare it with the control arrangements of other contemporary PE systems, if I can.

 

 

 

I am not sure you will find anything:

 

https://www.le-ptit-train.com/materiel_12.htm

 

" Il n'existe plus aucun plan technique ni schéma électrique, les constructeurs ont disparu depuis belle lurette. "