BREL Internationals

[Jawfin]

Hello all

 

I hear that each of the International coaches had different interior layouts - would anyone happen to be able to give a general idea of what the layouts were for each coach? (An opinion on what it was like to travel on them would be appreciated as well - apparently they weren't great!)

Also, would anyone happen to know which coach became which when they were sold and renumbered to IE to become the Cu na Mara set?

[mjkerr]

11 coaches, 1986
At the time, similar to Mark 3 coaches, but some elements now present on Mark 4 coaches
10 of the coaches were approved for passenger use
BFK - FO - FO - RUM - TSO - TSO - TSO - TSO - TSO - TSO - TSO

The first coach was retained for testing purposes

For interiors see :
http://www.traintesting.com/International_train.htm 

Sadly the interiors varied
Most of the bays in the TSO had tables, but some did not
Equally, in the FO two different layouts were used, similar to the Mark 4 coaches now
Note also the FO had closed luggage panels
Finally, note in the FO there no curtains, instead there were powered blinds between the panes of glass

Unusual was the introduction of a BFK, the first corridor coach on this type of coach, as the Mark 3 coaches were open layout
As a result the coach was locked out of passenger use after a few weeks
Equally, it was replaced briefly by the Mark 3B BFO

Edited July 21, 2015 by mjkerr

[Joseph_Pestell]

I visited some of the coaches during a tour of Litchurch Lane Works.

 

I would not describe them as being much like Mk3s but more like French Corail.

[Rivercider]

The Irish Traction Group stock list 1st edition lists vehicles

Standard/Composite *

6201* (99521)

6202  (99522)

6203  (99524)

6204  (99525)

6205  (99526)

6206  (99527)

6207  (99528)

6208  (99529)  - expected to be purchased during 1997 

Restaurant Buffet Standard

6401  (99523)

Driving Brake Standard

6501  (99520)

 

cheers

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Any idea what this coach is - at Litchurch Lane around the same time as the International Train? It's mounted on accommodation bogies in this shot.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Here's nine out of the 10 coaches behind a "Peak".

[mjkerr]

Any idea what this coach is - at Litchurch Lane around the same time as the International Train? It's mounted on accommodation bogies in this shot.

That's 99519, the first coach built

It was aimed to be an example for international orders, but that never happened

There was then a plan to convert it for the International Train, but that never happened either

 

However, the livery suggests it was prepared for an example

By November 1986 a plain silver livery had been applied

It then had T4 bogies fitted and was used for testing for the planned Mark 3 DVT and Mark 4

After that it disappeared...

 

What is known is that it had three different concept interior layouts, showing corridor first and open standard and standard compartment (glass partition)

The corridor was a temporary and removable construction

The first class interior ended up in the BFK and the glass partitions ended up in one of the FO

Edited July 21, 2015 by mjkerr

[Jawfin]

Thanks all very much - I'd very much like to see the two that are left in Nass

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=3495

Could this be the coach you're looking for?

[giz]

That's 99519, the first coach built

It was aimed to be an example for international orders, but that never happened

There was then a plan to convert it for the International Train, but that never happened either

 

However, the livery suggests it was prepared for an example

By November 1986 a plain silver livery had been applied

It then had T4 bogies fitted and was used for testing for the planned Mark 3 DVT and Mark 4

After that it disappeared...

 

What is known is that it had three different concept interior layouts, showing corridor first and open standard and standard compartment (glass partition)

The corridor was a temporary and removable construction

The first class interior ended up in the BFK and the glass partitions ended up in one of the FO

Is it 99519?

 

That looks to be different in this photo:

 

http://www.traintesting.com/images/Int%20coach%20with%20T4%20bogies%2053A%20Models%2099519.jpg

[mjkerr]

Is it 99519?

That looks to be different in this photo

Yes, it is the same coach, it was painted at least three times, and modified at least twice

At the end of 1986 was surplus to requirement so was used for the next few months as a test for the T4 bogies

[Pugsley]

That's 99519, the first coach built

I don't think it is 99519 - I think it's this one, as linked to above:

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=3495

 

The overall layout, and the tail lights in the end, give it away.

 

99519 looks to have the same windows, but the shell is of a completely different profile:

http://www.traintesting.com/images/Int%20coach%20with%20T4%20bogies%2053A%20Models%2099519.jpg

[Allegheny1600]

Anyone know why these coaches didn't generate further orders?

I would have thought build quality was not an issue, maybe cost? Timescales?

Cheers,

John E.

[Jawfin]

I quote from another forum:

 

 

'I was on the Cork-Dublin train at 15:30 yesterday and there was a "Cu na Mara" coach mixed into a standard IE Mark 3 set.

 

While the Cu na Mara / international coach was indeed a bit more spacious it suffered from extremely poor lighting. The interior of the coach was so dim that it was difficult to read a newspaper. All of the lights seemed to be working so I can only assume that it is some kind of a design flaw or that IE had a dimmer activated!

Overall, I didn't like the coach much at all. The windows are *WAY* too heavily tinted for Irish weather, the interior seemed dull and grey and dead compared to the MK3s. The automatic carriage end doors were very narrow and difficult to move luggage through. The luggage racks were tiny.

The toilets cubicals were darkly coloured and generally not very nice.

It also seemed to have features from the older MK2 fleet. i.e. the lighting arrangement looked similar, the air conditioners seemed to be at either end of the luggage racks etc.. Ugly riviting / screws all around the windows etc

To top that off the automatic door at one end of the coach wasn't working and the heating was pretty ineffective. There was a noticable draft all the time and compared to the MK3 coaches the temprature was way lower on board.

I can see why this coach type wasn't really the huge international sucess that BREL intended.

I would reckon that the normal IE Mark 3 stock is vastly superior from a customer experience point of view. They're actually quite pleasant on board and the interior finish and panels are far more "finished" looking. The International/Cu na Mara coach seemed a bit more "screwed together".'

Edited July 22, 2015 by Jawfin

[Joseph_Pestell]

Any idea what this coach is - at Litchurch Lane around the same time as the International Train? It's mounted on accommodation bogies in this shot.

 

That is the coach that we visited at Litchurch Lane. Much more like a Corail than those pictured as a complete train.

 

I was quite impressed with it but I can see that in service people might have found it less good than the Mk3. Three reasons for that:

 

1. The Mk3 was brilliant for it's time, especially when fitted with power doors (and still is).

2. The International was intended to be cheaper for export to markets in less developed countries.

3. A prototype is always going to be a bit more bodged together than a series production job.

 

Why did it not sell? Probably a whole host of reasons - mostly geopolitical rather than technical.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Joseph_Pestell

[lmsforever]

Saw this train parked at B/Intl had a look through windows did not seem as good as a mark 3 and the colour scheme did not help would imagine that buyers from abroad preferred their own manufacturers.

[mjkerr]

Anyone know why these coaches didn't generate further orders?

As above, a mix of politics and economy at the time

 

The government wanted exports from manufacturing but there just wasn't the demand

Equally, the costs were just too high when compared to what could be supplied from other countries

 

Ironically, one company pointed out it could have built the factory for free (based on three year government grants offered at the time) and built the rolling stock cheaper than what BREL could supply at

It was this short term view that resulted in some companies setting up, manufacturing for their own export market, then disappearing a few years later

[mjkerr]

I don't think it is 99519 - I think it's this one, as linked to above:

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=3495

Apologies, I was only covering those used with TOPS

I agree, I looked at the end profile and realised it is slightly different

I can confirm this is a coach that was built for Eurofima as a concept for export to Brazil

[Jawfin]

Hi all - these may be of interest. I visited the two remaining MK IIIAs (Internationals) recently, 6203 (the green one - ex-99524) at Carragh Nurseries (garden centre) near Naas, and 6205 (ex-99526) at Killashee House Hotel, also near Naas. The latter body doesn't appear to want 6205 or the Craven also on site, 1558, because they're such eyesores.
 

 

Probably not what BREL was expecting of these 30 years ago!

Edited November 17, 2017 by Jawfin

[Peter Kazmierczak]

In happier times, ex-works at Derby.

[montyburns56]

BREL International train at Manchester Piccadilly 1986 by Elmar Eye

 

Some very useful interiors shots amongst this lot.

 

 

 

 

 

"when we said that we wanted the interior decor to look like a Pacer we meant the DMU not the sweet"

 

 

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

On 21/07/2015 at 23:18, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Any idea what this coach is - at Litchurch Lane around the same time as the International Train? It's mounted on accommodation bogies in this shot.

Gabon railways carriage ?

Conservatives took over from the French building their railways in the late 1980’s.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by adb968008

[keefer]

It is the Gabon coach

http://www.traintesting.com/International_train.htm

[Peter Kazmierczak]

13 hours ago, keefer said:

It is the Gabon coach

http://www.traintesting.com/International_train.htm

 Looks like that website has used some of my photos...

[TravisM]

We’re these coaches ever used in everyday BR service instead of just the promotional run?

[keefer]

From the traintesting.com page linked to:

"The coaches were put into service on a Euston-Manchester diagram for a short period later that year [i.e. after 17/09/1986] but were withdrawn from passenger service and were subsequently used extensively for test loads with the class 89 locomotive."

 

Just noticed a couple of things - they had built-in tail lamps and there was an additional jumper cable (to the right of the gangway and not very thick cable, so probably a train comms line?)

http://www.traintesting.com/images/international-coaches-RTC.jpg