Basic Question: what should I now about Beta products on Shapeways?

[Edwardian]

As this is all very new to me, I thought I would ask if there is anything I ought to bear in mind before taking the plunge.

 

I had in mind to scratch-build a pair of loco bodies in plastic-card for use with a particular chassis kit. I thought this the only way I could back-date the chosen prototype sufficiently. This is something I have long intended and my intent is serious.

 

Then along comes a 3D printed version that is close to the original form of the prototype, leaving me to fabricate only a new cab and to find the accessories that I would have needed to find anyway.

 

It's a Beta product and I really don't know what to expect from that.  It's only been a couple of days since I emailed the designer with some queries, but no response as yet.  Perhaps it's not the Done Thing on Shapeways, I have no idea

 

I assume that it exists, i.e. if I pay good money a 3D printed product will duly arrive in the post. 

 

I wonder what advice those with experience could offer?

[bigP]

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[Talltim]

Are they beta if they haven't been printed yet? As such Shapeways don't know whether they will print satisfactory

[Edwardian]

Thanks for the prompt and helpful response. I want two of these locos and the bodies are $55 each.  I suppose the prudent thing would be to buy just one, and, then, if satisfactory, buy another.  Bit of a risk, but otherwise I will never know.

[3rdboxcar]

My understanding is that a Beta product on Shapeways is one that hasn't been 'tested' so to speak, and/or is still in the development stage and may not yet be any good.  Essentially the customer becomes the tester.

 

As far as I know you can expect the usual Shapeways service, ie if it's printed badly they re-do it at their cost, but if it a poor design, out of scale etc etc, then too bad, you bought a beta product.

 

HOWEVER...

 

What Beta status doesn't tell you is whether or not the product is linked to a similar item that has been fully tested. 

For example, with my N gauge Networker turbos (http://www.shapeways.com/designer/bigp) I test only one version to make sure all the core parts work, ie chassis, bodyshell all fit, etc etc.  The others are all slight variations of the core design so defacto work as well.  This saves me a lot,and I mean a hell of a lot, of money, but ensures all are good.  Trouble is the 'Beta' status doesn't make that clear to the consumer, except I guess if the designer mentions it in the description box I guess. 

 

That said, none of my Turbos state 'Beta', so there's probably some other criteria linked to 'Beta' status as well.

 

Check out the designers other work and see if they have a similar item that isn't at Beta status.

 

 

Cheers,

Paul

Basically Paul's first line says it all, you get what is printed and Shapeways will only reprint if it is definitely a machine printing error, so if the walls are to thin and warp or bits drop off or the detail is just a blob it's yours warts and all, you then have the privilege of telling the designer where he went wrong, he can make changes and you have to buy another.

 

I do not like Beta since basically it says I am designing a product and you the customer will pay for the design process and I will make money out of the product at the end and even on the beta sale.

That said beta can work if you are working with somebody who is willing to try ideas as they the customer do not have the "print it anyway" facility.

 

As designers we have the option of "print it anyway" so we can test our own designs. 

 

Give the designer a few days to reply, they may be on holiday etc, if you do not hear from him "buyer beware".

 

Alexander

[Edwardian]

Thanks

 

It is slightly offensive in principle to charge $55 for something that might be a blob, but it meets my obscure requirement almost perfectly and I have no right to expect this product to exist!  If I want it, I suppose the least I can do is help get it to market.

 

The chap hasn't got back to me.  I will give it a few days.  Cottage industry manufacturers and suppliers cannot be expected to haver the same responsiveness and customer care facilities as big suppliers.  There comes a point, however, where ignoring potential customers for long periods is simply rude.

 

So, do I spend a lot of money I can't really spare for a rude man to send me a potential blob? That is the question I must wrestle with over the next few days!

[Talltim]

Did you try contacting them via asking a question on the product page or emailing them directly? I've noticed many products with questions on their page with no response from the creator, my gut feeling is that as a creator you get no alert to new comments. However I don't know for certain as I've not been in that position

[Edwardian]

Email

 

I should add that I am not suggesting that this individual is rude.  While it is always disappointing when a prompt response is not received, there may be all sorts of reasons for this, as has been noted, and it has only been a few days.

[3rdboxcar]

Did you try contacting them via asking a question on the product page or emailing them directly? I've noticed many products with questions on their page with no response from the creator, my gut feeling is that as a creator you get no alert to new comments. However I don't know for certain as I've not been in that position

You get notification of private messages and comments if you have them enabled to send you a message.

 

When sending a private message you can also check a box to notify you if the message has been read.

 

Would you be willing to share what you are thinking of buying?

 

Alexander

[Twright]

Are they beta if they haven't been printed yet? As such Shapeways don't know whether they will print satisfactory

 

If they haven't been printed yet they are 'first to try' which is automatically applied to all products that haven't yet been printed. Beta is as mentioned before, something the designer can choose to have.

[Edwardian]

Thanks.  I am a little hesitant to name the product, in case it is felt that I have been critical, which was not the intention.  Shapeways is new to me and my fear at sending money in response to a computer graphic with no evidence of anyone alive at the other end is just irrational.

 

I emailed the Designer because I had some questions, some of which concerned the stage of development, which are now redundant thanks to the helpful answers here; I understand that Beta is something that has at least been printed.

 

Other questions were, I felt, appropriate.  The product is a locomotive body.  I asked if it had been designed with the proprietary chassis kit produced for this class in mind.  There were a couple of such questions, questions that I felt the Designer would be in a position to answer assuming that he had designed the body with a view to producing a finished locomotive himself.

 

I used the Shapeways PM facility, which appears to be essentially similar to the one here. My PM was only sent last Thursday, 23 July.  Nothing in my inbox as yet, but it's only been 3 days, 2 of which were the weekend, so the Designer, who doubtless has other occupations, has not had much of an opportunity to respond yet. While I would love to hear from him, I can hardly complain at not having heard from him yet. Only if more than a week goes by do I start to feel that the basic courtesies may be lacking.

 

With that out of the way, I feel more comfortable in saying that the body kit is 4mm scale for the Cambrian Railways Sharp Stewart 2-4-0T.  I believe it is the same prototype as for the GEM whitemetal body kit.  The difference is that I wanted to represent the design in its original 1860s form.  The 3D printed body is much closer than the GEM as a starting point for this.

 

Mainly Trains supply a chassis kit for the GEM body, so naturally I would seek to use this with the 3D printed body.

[backofanenvelope]

It might be at this point you could break out Sketchup (other apps are available) and have a go at learning 3D CAD in order to open up the limitless possibilities of your own mind. There are many that have tried and succeeded and theres nothing you can't learn on the internet along with friendly help on here. There again you could pay yer money and take a punt. There maybe many reasons why the original designer is not responding but it would be safe to say that if in beta "it's always a risk" just think of software as an example.

 

hth

Tom

[Edwardian]

Tom, indeed, but I am still crawling through how to use Inkscape (with a view to Silhouette-produced coach bodies), and, so attempting 3D CAD may have to wait!

 

In the meantime, this chap seemed to have produced close enough to what I wanted and it felt like a question of re-invention of the wheel if I were to ignore the opportunity.

 

If I get no/no satisfactory response, I might wait to take the longer road you describe.  

[Edwardian]

Actually, I think I have now worked out that the Designer - who is, hopefully, not feeling too put upon by this stage - is a member here.  He has an online shop that sells inter alia 4mm loco fittings, but not the complete body that is for sale as a Beta product on Shapeways.

 

I quite coincidentally PM'd him here, not realising they were one and the same, in relation to the Cambrian 2-4-0T (as he mentions this in a post on RMWeb) and another design.

 

I hope that the PM and the posts here might grab his attention more successfully than the Shapeways PM.  Needless to say, from my few basic questions, I feel that my posts have spiralled into a potentially embarrassing situation!   

[Nile]

The Shapeways site is a bit wierd when it comes to PMs. They work via the forum, and unless you visit the forum you won't see the PM notification. So it's easy for PMs to go un-noticed.

The designer has been on RMweb today, so a PM here should work.

[Edwardian]

Well, I PM'd (here) the Man Who I Now Know to be the Designer, and he responded very promptly and very positively, so positively that he promptly popped a 'no cab' version on Shapeways, mit strengthened valancing on the tank tops, so that Little Old Me would not have to hack the 1890s cab off in order to fit an 1860s cab sheet!

 

Can't see Bachmann doing that for you, can you?!?

 

He kindly answered my chassis question too.

 

So, the fact that the Designer was a member here had already given me much confidence.  Now I have received excellent treatment.  I shall be shortly braving the Shapeways payment system!

 

Thanks to everyone for their help and advice. 

 

As and when I progress the project, I shall post the results here.

[rue_d_etropal]

I have found the messaging system on Shapeways difficult in the past. It does now flag up if there are messages, but only if you log in. For anyone I am talking to online, I tend to switch to email. The email you get from Shapeways does not show the message just a link. If it was like Facebook and had the message it would be much better.

 

As for Beta products, I have never set any to Beta, simply because it is obvious when something has not been printed. As soon as it has been it says so, and people will tend to say there is a problem if there is. If something is marked as 'Beta' then I feel I am being treated as a guinea pig, so why spend the money. Beta versions work for software because they are normally free, but not for products that cost money. Mind you if Shapeways slashed their prices for Beta versions, even if it was for only one print, then I might be tempted.

I have made some expensive mistakes on some of my models. Some I can fix, some I can work around. One reason I tend to test print one of a new range before making them available to others. It is a pity Shapeways took off the option to display without being for sale. This was a better 'Beta' method of promotion, but some(who shout louder) did not like this, and it probably did not help the search facility.

 

Although 3D printing has been around for many years, most people are now only coming across it. I tend to find more interest in my models when they are seen at exhibitions. This has been the case with my WW1 stock, and hope it will be even more the case with my track system. 3D printing does what other production methods can not do. It is not the only way. Laser cutting is taking off well, and combining this with 3D printing, making both much much better.

[Edwardian]

Thanks.  The Designer has been extremely helpful, even producing a new version that better suits me.  I believe another forum member has successfully built one.  In the circumstances, I shall go ahead; I'm just doing the rounds trying to work out what else I need and if I can get hold of it, and then I'll order it.

[rue_d_etropal]

Most designers producing railway models can usually expect to be asked for variations on a model, or more likely the possibility of the model in a different scale. This happened to me, and luckily it is relatively easy with the CAD program I use, but I know there has been some discussion here about re-sizing. It is worth while thinking about this should anyone design a model for 3D printing. Shapeways have some sort of scaling option, but not sure how good it is.

As bigger scale models can be expensive, I have considered doing smaller scale versions to see how something looks. I can usually be pretty certain there will be no problems with bigger version(fingers still crossed though).

[Knuckles]

Thanks.  The Designer has been extremely helpful, even producing a new version that better suits me.  I believe another forum member has successfully built one.  In the circumstances, I shall go ahead; I'm just doing the rounds trying to work out what else I need and if I can get hold of it, and then I'll order it.

 

Hello, been reading this thread with interest, half a year later how was your build?

 

[Edwardian]

Thanks for asking.  Personal circumstances intervened.  I did not get further than ordering the chassis kit from Mainly Trains.  Once my situation improves, I fully intend to go on with the project.

[rue_d_etropal]

I think 'personal circumstances' are probably most common reason for failings in communication. One reason I like Shapeways for 3D printing, is that once it is out there I hopefully don't need to get involved. Compared to other 'cottage industry' model suppliers , this is a lot less hazzle. I prefer to aim my designs at modellers who want something that makes it easier for them, but does not necessarily do everything.