Colne Valley Kid Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Martyn, Have a look at this link for some ideas for a hidden surround fiddle yard - should it be staging!! http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14413 The plan is part way down the page Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Martyn, Have a look at this link for some ideas for a hidden surround fiddle yard - should it be staging!! http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14413 The plan is part way down the page Phil I love that layout, always a fan of different 'scenes' on a fixed layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 A few thoughts: - base board height above floor? I once built a "round the walls" in a small office, and thought "put it quite high up; won't consume office storage or working space". But, it made the room feel very claustrophobic (well, actually it made me, not the room, feel like that) when sitting at the desk working. SWMBO might have instinctively spotted this as a potential problem. - corners ...... depending upon the curve radius you choose, it will impinge on the room quite a bit on the corners, see above .... - I think that some correspondents may be being unduly wary of track hidden behind a back-scene. Point-work, especially complicated formations would be asking for trouble, but plain track, well laid, not an issue, provided that you can either lean over the back-scene of remove the same to permit track cleaning and removal of dead spiders. - the door ......... Think very carefully about how you intend to cross it, whether you want to re-hang it to open outwards etc. getting lifting flaps or removable sections just right can be ticklish. - with care, you could go G, 0, 00, N, Z, T, or any one of a zillion narrow gauge formats with what you propose, but, as someone else has said, you do need to decide whether you want to "watch the trains go by", or get into complex/interesting operation before starting. Hope at least one of these is a useful thought. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynJPearson Posted August 19, 2015 Author Share Posted August 19, 2015 Realised I'd been a little quiet recently - having just moved house the job list really does have to take priority (and I'm not just saying that because SWMBO is looking over my shoulder!). I also found that the estate agents details were incorrect, the room isn't 12'2" square, it is 12'2" x 10'8". Estate agents, tsk! Have started sketching some ideas out in Anyrail and think I am at the point of seeing how things will really look by drawing it all out on lining paper. Can then get a real feel for how it will impinge on the room. Overall thoughts for the boarding are... 1) I like the idea of multiple levels, but sticking with "keep it simple" I've gone for one level at the moment. 2) The door into the room is right in the corner, so my plan is to have the board come diagonally across from one wall to the adjacent wall, leaving room for the door to be opened. I am going to hinge the section that goes diagonally across so that it can be lifted when the trains aren't running. 3) The lift out section will cut all power when it isn't down. Will perhaps add a Push To Make "override" button to allow movements at my risk, but just isolating a short section of track near the lift out section is no good if the power is at the other end of a long train (i.e. a single power car on an HST set). 4) Overall I'd like to keep closer to 12-15" depth, but the thought did occur that I could always make that deeper with removable sections that are added for when I'm running trains. On the track front... 1) Will try to accommodate three storage circuits, if not then perhaps will be able to add a couple of loops or sidings on one or more sides for shorter trains / locos. 2) As well as being able to run through freight and passenger trains (and even just sit and watch them go round and round), I wanted to make sure I had some interest. At the same time, I came across Minories and a light bulb came on. So, I've come up with a plan (will try to post a track plan once I get a mo) that will have a Minories station with the pointwork on the curve on one side of the room, and a through track on the other side. (Accepting that the Minories side may push the width out a little, so subject to consent!) 3) Could also add a small loco fuelling point or DMU shed as an add on board. The aim would be to do this in phases, so it is all manageable. Of course, I could get all this onto lining paper, realise it isn't going to work and go back to the drawing board. But better to find out now in the early stages! Thanks once again for all the ideas and advice, Martyn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynJPearson Posted August 19, 2015 Author Share Posted August 19, 2015 An evening with AnyRail and I've come up with the first stab at a plan... The outer two circuits will remain hidden and are for storage, the scenic area will be two parts - the station to the top and the double track loop to the bottom right which will be the scenic section for through trains to pass through. The bottom left corner is where the door will be, with my plan to make the 45 degree curves on the main board, and the straights on the liftable section - I like to have track cross board joints at 90 degrees if I can help it. In terms of hitting my space requirements, I think it comes pretty close, but I do wonder whether I am making best use of the space. I did only manage to squeeze in two storage roads and the majority of visible track will be up against the backdrop on the outer side. So, perhaps some more thought required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 MJP I reckon that could give quite good operating "play value", without impinging too much, but can I make three suggestions? 1) at "Minories", put in an engine release crossover between the "close together" platform roads. This allows for much better "off peak" operating potential, a loco can bring in a parcels train and run round it, without the need for a second loco. The real railway wouldn't want to tie-up two locos on a job like this. 2) to get full play value out of Minories, you really need two more "fiddle sidings", and I'm wondering if you could squeeze them in at the bottom right corner. 3) you could make the "fiddle area" at the bottom right scenic, simply by declaring it to be a set of carriage sidings and/or layby sidings. Such things are common on the outskirts of major towns,even today. 4) more play value would come from adding a goods facility, and I think you have enough room to squeeze a replica of Vine Street Goods (Metropiltan Railway), which took van traffic, in between the station throat and the outer through roads. 5) you could put a simple two platform or island-platform through station somewhere near the top right. 6) when you have finished this, you can (will) add sneaky baseboard extensions for odd extra features like a private siding. With careful preparation, this can be done while SWMBO is out visiting friends/family, or down the gym or at the shops. Actually, that is five suggestions, and one prediction! Hope useful, Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 The plan fits the space but has minimal operating potential with no turnback facilities, I think you need a pen and paper to work this out. It is all very well using computer programs, or indeed a big box of track and the living room floor and seeing what you can actually cram in to a space but you don't get the feel of how trains will operate. Simply drawing on paper. moving the pen across the paper like a train proceeding gives a feel for how the layout will operate. You seem to have skipped this back of the fag packet proof of concept stage. You can design a Terminus to Fiddle yards layout or a Terminus to return loop. Even a Terminus to through station with turn back facilities, but unless you model DMU / EMU / 21st century Top Tail you need some form of turn back. The old CJ Freezer Peco 60 small layouts etc always acknowledged this. Of course the fiddle yard can be lifting the engine at some random place and popping it back on the other end of the train. My loft layout still barely started 19 years after instigation, has a marshalling yard for goods and a Loco Depot as its focus, effectively a visible fiddle yard. It has storage loops off a low level clockwise circuit and trains can arrive and depart from any storage loop in either direction. It is hopelessly over complicated electrically as up trains conflict down trains which it has never been completed and is something like 15ft X 9ft and the long storage loops take 9 coaches easily. The round the outside staging with DCC and CCTV is a good solution, but you could end up endlessly moving trains up a section. You could automate it but the cost in relays etc is significant when multiplied by the number of sections. The US type staging yard sounds like a good idea, There used to be something very similar at Over sidings on the GW Gloucester to South Wales line, pure marshalling sidings in open country. Trains reversed either in or out depending on direction, almost a scenic fiddle yard for Gloucester docks traffic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted August 20, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 20, 2015 The plan fits the space but has minimal operating potential with no turnback facilities, I think you need a pen and paper to work this out. It is all very well using computer programs, or indeed a big box of track and the living room floor and seeing what you can actually cram in to a space but you don't get the feel of how trains will operate. Simply drawing on paper. moving the pen across the paper like a train proceeding gives a feel for how the layout will operate. You seem to have skipped this back of the fag packet proof of concept stage. You can design a Terminus to Fiddle yards layout or a Terminus to return loop. Even a Terminus to through station with turn back facilities, but unless you model DMU / EMU / 21st century Top Tail you need some form of turn back. The old CJ Freezer Peco 60 small layouts etc always acknowledged this. Of course the fiddle yard can be lifting the engine at some random place and popping it back on the other end of the train. My loft layout still barely started 19 years after instigation, has a marshalling yard for goods and a Loco Depot as its focus, effectively a visible fiddle yard. It has storage loops off a low level clockwise circuit and trains can arrive and depart from any storage loop in either direction. It is hopelessly over complicated electrically as up trains conflict down trains which it has never been completed and is something like 15ft X 9ft and the long storage loops take 9 coaches easily. The round the outside staging with DCC and CCTV is a good solution, but you could end up endlessly moving trains up a section. You could automate it but the cost in relays etc is significant when multiplied by the number of sections. The US type staging yard sounds like a good idea, There used to be something very similar at Over sidings on the GW Gloucester to South Wales line, pure marshalling sidings in open country. Trains reversed either in or out depending on direction, almost a scenic fiddle yard for Gloucester docks traffic Since you've referred to 60 Plans for Small Railways, within it contains Freezer's most famous layout, namely Minories featured in Plan 53 in basic form & Plan 54 with the addition of basic goods facilities. (This is also mentioned by Nearholmer). What could be done is incorporate Plan 55 for which Freezer states as 'the complement for Minories, for it represents the outer end of a suburban branch'. It could fit on your plan on the RHS replacing your inside pair of loops. Edit to add. There are two books with similar titles, there is 60 Plans for Small Railways & 60 Plans for Small Layouts, both contain 60 plans obviously, but are entirely different. Minories appears in both S53 & S54 in the former & as SP35 & SP36 in the latter - confused? I am! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMay Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it by having both a roundy-roundy and a point-to-point in the same layout. Go for one or the other; two termini, one termini and a fiddle yard, or a through station would make things work better I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 TM What do you feel is wrong with "having your cake and eating it" in this case? To me, it Seems like jolly good thing to do, if at all possible! If indigestion is going to occur, I think it will be caused by the fiddling-zone at the bottom right. The more I think about it, the more I think it would be best handled as a series of, say, four, dead-end roads, on the inside of the circuit, for easy access, with simple scenery representing carriage/staging sidings. Regarding the terminus end, there is another thread on this forum at the moment, called "not quite terminii", which drifted into a discussion of Holborn Viaduct, which is well worth a read, even if you aren't into SR things. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted August 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2015 If you are happy just watching trains go by then 12x12 is no problem Abbotswood junction is 12 x 9 and accommodates the size of trains the OP is talking about. You can't model the facilities to accommodate their full length on the scenic section however. Hth Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted August 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 21, 2015 A problem that comes to my mind with the latest plan is that unless at least one of the double junctions (probably the one at the bottom) uses a slip instead of a diamond, there is no link between the inner and outer circuits. So a train must leave and return to the terminus on the same track, wrong road running one way or the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynJPearson Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 Good spot. In my haste to post before the laptop battery died, I forgot to mention that I had left crossovers off, but planned to put them on at suitable intervals to allow trains from one storage circuit to move onto the other. One obvious place is the lift out section - I didn't plan on it being scenic and being a lift out section, there won't be trains parked on it. The biggest drawback that is bothering me at the moment is that I feel I could make better use of the space to have a longer scenic run for the through trains. Now wondering whether I could shuffle things about at bit so that the station is on removable boards erected for running only with a scenic circuit running for a larger distance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 To further confuse the Peco 60 plans series, the small layouts etc books changed with reprints and have two identically titled books with many of the layouts common to both some different layouts in each. The older books were designed in an era when 2 ft radius peco points for instance were a bit shorter on the toe end by about 1 sleeper than currently and this is enough to stop some layouts being built in the suggested space. Also in that era and I have railway magazines (acquired second hand ) going pre 1960 as well as Railway Modellers from the early 1970s and few modellers had large studs of locos and generally few wagons and coached. The locos they did have were much better at hill climbing that modern ones and 1 in 24 gradients were quite comfortable for a Gaiety or Farish OO Pannier and a dozen or two Peco wagons, or a H/D castle and 5 coaches. ( I have a video somewhere of Bachmann Tornado stalling on 6 Mk 1s and a Triang Britannia hauling 14 coaches up the same gradient. My bedroom layout long dismantled had a 60" track height and I tried to make the outer edge of the framing as thin as possible to stop it becoming oppressive A 2X1 with the baseboard surface 1/2 way down the framing gives a good compromise while still keeping a 1/2 or 3/4 inch lip to stop stock falling off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Hi, I too have the office space dilema and more. The garage housed the layout previously though now that is re-purposed for other things domestic My take is to go for an L shape. This will comprise of a 3ft deep main board across the end wall and a narrower one down one wall with a turning area in a recessed area. That recess will also have a tidy shelf area built above to give function and hide the tight turn. I am still looking at storage and trying to decide on hidden sidings or loops. My take on it has always been, I have paid for all the stock so put it on show as a proper yard rather than hide it Part of my design is to give an overlap so height will be needed, which if I do go with the hidden sidings can make use of the level differences Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMay Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Perhaps the "having one's cake and eating it" analogy isn't good. But my point is. It's perhaps rather like my grandson whose idea of eating is to try to stuff as much food as he physically can into his mouth. The inevitable consequence is that he struggles to masticate it properly. The solution is similar - less is more. Don't bite off more than you can chew. A roundy-round or point-to-point please - your choice, but choose one not both and then wonder why neither really works properly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Im building an insulated shed to house a 15' by 8' layout , its a roundy roundy, but it completely prototypical in that its based on a a 5 way single track junction through station ( in Ireland ), with a branch line running to a small branch station . 4 junctions all loop back to reconnect behind the scenes. out and back will be the nature of the operation with the fiddle yard being used to run round the loco ( set in 1970-1980) I was going to put a small ( 3-4 track fiddle yard , behind the branch station , opposite wall to the main station ) , but now I am considering putting a fiddle yard below the branch station , on a slide out carriage , with one track being capable of acting as a cassette system ( or perhaps all tracks, depending ?) any perspectives on this oh, the baseboards are being designed to be removable, so that complicates things nicely , in that the top and bottom baseboards will have to separate , in reality the 4 junctions tracks leading to the fiddle will probable be on the same level as the main station and its the branch line that will climb up over the fiddle yard ( or not, could be split gradients etc ) ( not hijacking the thread or anything ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 TM I understand what you're saying, but depending upon the OP's personal likes when it comes to model railways, and needs for space for other things in the room, I still think that P2P and R&R could be accommodated together here. One crucial factor might be train length. I'm into fairly short trains, and plenty of operational possibilities, but I know that some people like long trains, and are happy have few operational possibilities (one really: going R&R). Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.