Manchester ship canal railway

[40019]

There's one of the MSC brake vans preserved at the Goucester Waterways Museum

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45777493@N06/7986252374

 

This is one of the CLC design ones used at Stanlow towards the end of its days in 1986

 

https://flic.kr/p/6zYCdw

Edited August 4, 2015 by 40019

[Marshall5]

This is one of the CLC design ones used at Stanlow towards the end of its days in 1986

 

https://flic.kr/p/6zYCdw

I wasn't aware that the CLC designed any brake vans.  The photo looks to show an LMS standard van to diag 1659 which was a continuation of a Midland design.  I believe that 6373 was one of a pair of vans the MSC purchased from a Bolton dealer in Aug.1962. Thanks for the link to the picture.

Cheers,

Ray.

[Gordon A]

The brake van at the Gloucester Inland Waterways museum is a GWR Toad with added windows to weatherproof the open veranda.

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[herman83]

It's starting to look something like. Still a few bits to sort out.

[crazynitwit]

Just wondering how much of a following the MSC railway has? I gather that there is quite an interest but no rtr model of any loco.

If there was a MSC loco available off the shelf, would people buy it?

Hornby brought out an msc livery sentinel a year or so ago now.

[PenrithBeacon]

This is one of the CLC design ones used at Stanlow towards the end of its days in 1986

 

https://flic.kr/p/6zYCdw

Firstly the CLC didn’t design any rolling stock it was done by the MSLR/GCR/LNER. Secondly those MSC brake vans are of MR/LMS origin. The MSC had a large number of wagons most were pre-group and acquired second hand.

Hornby have recently done two models of MSC locos, a Sentinel and a Peckett.

 

Regards

[jdb82]

It's starting to look something like. Still a few bits to sort out.

I realised this thread was from a couple of years ago now, but I’m building a Hudswell Clarke short tank. Is the light grey livery the standard livery the MSC used for these locos? Does anyone know if there were any others used? The preserved ones all seem to be either black or green, but I’m struggling to find any info online. Maybe I’m just looking in the wrong place...

 

Thanks in advance for any ideas!

John

[Marshall5]

The remaining Hudswell Clarkes were in unlined black in the latter years.  I'm sure there are more details in 'Railways of the Manchester ship canal' - sorry I can't get to my copy at the moment but there's one on Amazon  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Railways-Manchester-Ship-Canal-Thorpe/dp/0860932885/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1513959613&sr=8-1&keywords=book+manchester+ship+canal+railways An excellent book for anyone interested in the MSC Rlys.

Ray.

[Dava]

MSC 67 [long tank] on the Middleton Railway was restored and is in the museum in lined grey, very smart too. There is a photo in the museum section of the website

http://middletonrailway.org.uk/

 

Dava

[Arthur]

 

 

I summarised the MSC loco livery details, as outlined in Don Thorpes book, in this post earlier this year.

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103556-Hornby-announce-peckett-w4-0-4-0st/?p=2608136

 

As I state, the details are not presented in a methodical manner in Don’s book and you need to collate information from various bits of text and photo captions.

 

On one point he is clear, no locos were painted black. They were lined ‘slate blue’, a dark grey, which darkened over the years with multiple cleanings using colza oil;

 

", shows the engine in what appears to be a black livery, but in reality the colours beneath the many years of daily-applied coatings of colza oil was dark blue (more slate grey), edged with black and lined in white. It is interesting to note that many serious students of the Manchester Ship Canal Railway believe that the company had its engines painted black but that is not so."

 

I have to say, they did look black in the 1960s.

 

The application of any livery seems to have been random and I suspect that various members of the short tanks were green, slate blue and light grey at different times. The post war light grey livery did not seem to have been applied to all locos.

 

.

[jdb82]

Thanks All -very helpful as always :-) Paint No will commence in the next few weeks!

[montyburns56]

Hudswell 0-6-0 MSC D9 Dibles Wharf

 

 

MSC D6

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

I'm pleased to see some other people interested in the MSC Railway, which I have just started modelling in 7mm scale.

That's a great photo of the rear end of D9, will be helpful for my model (build thread link below) but what have they done to the cab roof ?

 

[PenrithBeacon]

On 25/06/2020 at 15:51, montyburns56 said:

Hudswell 0-6-0 MSC D9 Dibles Wharf

 

 

MSC D6

 

 

Do you know when those pictures were taken? My recollection is that they were black in the mid sixties. 

[Mol_PMB]

In the 1960s most MSC steam locos looked black, but apparently were 'slate grey' darkened by use and polishing.

The MSC's Hudswell Clarke diesels were always green (called Sheffield green by HC, perhaps a bit darker than LNER Doncaster green?), apart from E1 (see below).

The MSC's Sentinel diesels were dark blue, one of the 'standard' colours offered by Sentinel (along with dark green or maroon).

 

MSC wagons were black, except those used by the engineers. It was the Resident Engineers Department so they painted their rolling stock R.E.D. (!)

The little HC diesel loco E1 was an engineers loco hence it was delivered in red. The engineers steam loco it replaced was also red.

 

Regards,

Paul

[Sandhole]

22 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

In the 1960s most MSC steam locos looked black, but apparently were 'slate grey' darkened by use and polishing.

The MSC's Hudswell Clarke diesels were always green (called Sheffield green by HC, perhaps a bit darker than LNER Doncaster green?), apart from E1 (see below).

The MSC's Sentinel diesels were dark blue, one of the 'standard' colours offered by Sentinel (along with dark green or maroon).

 

MSC wagons were black, except those used by the engineers. It was the Resident Engineers Department so they painted their rolling stock R.E.D. (!)

The little HC diesel loco E1 was an engineers loco hence it was delivered in red. The engineers steam loco it replaced was also red.

 

Regards,

Paul

E1 ended up in standard green with the rest of the Hudswells.
I became very familiar with the Trafford Park Estates part of the MSC in the mid 70s.
The Castles. 4001 and 4002 Alnick and Arundel Castle were regulars on the long evening freight train.
Occasionally the Sentinel Pair DH23 and DH24, I think, deputised. The Hudswells like D9 appeared on lighter loaded loads. Never on the evening freight.
I did see one little Hunslet on the Kelloggs van train.
The Sentinels or the Castles were fitted for hauling the 'Liner trains from the depot on Barton Dock Road.
The infamous Taylor's Asbestos Cement ran two Planets. 
The Trafford Park steel works were being dismantled. One RH 0-4-0 DM worked the scrap trains off there.
The celebrity was CPC Barclay 0-4-0 saddle tank. Yes, the Hattons one. She wrestled with rakes of 21t hoppers into CPC's plant. Brown and Poulson's had a ro-rail Unimog. That replaced a fireless loco.
The most photo shy loco on the 'Park was the Sentinel in the Esso refinery. That was a VERY weathered red chain drive loco. I got a shot in the end.
I took loads of shots. The'Park was just down the road from me and I was in my last years at school.
Regards,
Chris Pakes.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Sandhole

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks - great reminiscences! I’d love to see some photos of those times. 

Especially any of the 204hp HC locos as they would help me with details of the model I’m building, but the others sound most interesting too. 

I live locally (Urmston) but only moved here 12 years ago so missed all the action, only seeing a few container trains. 

Cheers,

Mol

[Mol_PMB]

P.S. is this the Esso Sentinel? 

I got this among some other MSC Sentinel images from the Ribble Steam Railway, whose staff have been really helpful. 

Apparently this image was from “a gentleman called Steve Parry who designed the Sentinel locomotives and later worked on Manchester Ship Canal.” 

[Sandhole]

Just now, Mol_PMB said:

P.S. is this the Esso Sentinel? 

I got this among some other MSC Sentinel images from the Ribble Steam Railway, whose staff have been really helpful. 

Apparently this image was from “a gentleman called Steve Parry who designed the Sentinel locomotives and later worked on Manchester Ship Canal.” 

It was that type.
The Hornby red chain drive Sentinel that they produced a few years back was the right shade of red.
When I knew it, there was no company logo and the red livery was VERY faded. It looked as if it had never been repainted the whole of it's life.
The Sentinel makers plate was the same red and equally faded.
Chris.

 

[Mol_PMB]

7 hours ago, Sandhole said:

It was that type.
The Hornby red chain drive Sentinel that they produced a few years back was the right shade of red.
When I knew it, there was no company logo and the red livery was VERY faded. It looked as if it had never been repainted the whole of it's life.
The Sentinel makers plate was the same red and equally faded.
Chris.

 

Thanks, that's interesting as it suggests that this photo from Ribble isn't the Trafford Park one. It looks to be brand new painted in Esso livery. Whereas your observations of the loco at Esso Trafford Park are that it was delivered new in one of the 'standard' Sentinel paint schemes and remained in that all its life.

I believe the Esso Trafford Park RR-Sentinel loco was works number 10198 of 1965 (as listed in 1EL). Earlier there had been a Fowler diesel, 4210044 of 1958.

In contrast, Shell Trafford Park had an elderly Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0DM, D615 of 1938. An ancestor of the MSC Hudswell Clarke diesels, it was still in use into the late 1960s at least.

Cheers,

Mol

 

[Michael Edge]

10 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I'm pleased to see some other people interested in the MSC Railway, which I have just started modelling in 7mm scale.

That's a great photo of the rear end of D9, will be helpful for my model (build thread link below) but what have they done to the cab roof ?

 

D9's cab roof seems to have been cut down for some reason, I hadn't noticed but I've got another photo of it (HC D1253) at PD fuels, Northam, Hants. - presumably later though.

[Michael Hodgson]

Any decent MSC layout should include a working model of the Barton Swing Aqueduct, which was controlled by the nearest thing they had to a signal box.  Or if you model the other end, it would have to have the Transporter Bridge which preceded the steel arch bridge.

 

In the late 1950s/early 1960s I was at school in Stockton Heath near Warrington overlooking the canal.  We saw plenty of shipping and even had a school trip along the canal but I never saw any train on that stretch of the MSC railway.  I do remember the canal was still using ball signals, a type which the railways had abandoned in Victorian times - one or two baskets hoisted up a flagpole, which were provided on the swing bridges to indicate to shipping the direction of traffic, which in any case was normally a procession to/from Eastham, where high tide was needed at the locks connecting with the Mersey.   The swing bridges didn't have today's lifting barriers and wig-wags, the roads were protected by railway style hand-worked level crossing gates.  After a ship had passed these were routinely opened for pedestrians and cyclists to cross whilst the bridge was still moving!

 

One of my school friends lived in Fairfield Road overlooking this accident, which stranded several large ships in Manchester for many months.

 

[Mol_PMB]

Haha - very true. Thanks for the reminiscences which are always great to hear.

My personal favourite discovery when reading about the MSC Railway was the swing bridge near Latchford which had to be swung for the trains to pass, as well as for the ships!

You can see it here:

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW021587

 

Thanks for the link abut the sinking of the Mary P Cooper. Cooper's sand hoppers had a bad reputation for sinking! You can see a photo of another of Cooper's ships passing Latchford in the late 1950s on my Flickr here:

(Note: these 100 old slides of the Manchester Ship Canal weren't taken by me - I wasn't born  but by a gentleman named Leslie Gordon). He was a neighbour of a parent of a friend, who rescued them from being thrown away when he died, and passed them to me for scanning and sharing).

 

Regards,

Mol

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

When a vessel is full of sand it does tend to sink if holed below the waterline!  Removing the sand was part of the problem of refloating. 

 

Yes, the line's headroom under Latchford Road bridge was close, but the operational railway was by then effectively confined to the Manchester docks area, though I think there may have been a little left at the western end too.  Whilst I was at school Latchford High Level bridge was struck by a vessel and an aerial was knocked off its mast.  I think there was more water than usual in the canal at the time.

 

 I did manage a brake van trip round the Manchester docks area in the early 1970s.  If my memory is not letting me down that finished early because of a derailment.   The condition of the track was certainly pretty rough.

 

Before the Clean Air Acts the canal suffered very bad fogs.  Shortly after the (first) M6 Thelwall Viaduct was opened a  bus was involved in an accident and a passenger decided he would be safer on the other side of the crash barrier than on the carriageway - fortunately it was over the canal and he survived the drop! 

[Michael Edge]

Talk of buses reminds me of travelling back home on the X97 in the mid sixties - nearing Warrington on the route from Manchester one night one of the bridges (can't remember which one)was swung open. Never mind said the driver as he raced along the road parallel to the canal at 50mph or so to beat the ship to the next one.... many years later my stepdaughter lived in a terraced house on Ellesmere road and I realised we must have raced along that street.