Mol_PMB Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Another eBay purchase, a nice photo of MSC brake van at Ellesmere Port. The Manchester Ship Canal Railway had very few brake vans, but there were a few at Ellesmere Port for use on the steeply graded link to Stanlow. 6372 and 6373 were purchased from the Bolton Wagon Co in August 1962 and were around 40 years old then - they survived well into the 1980s. Originating from Midland/LMS practice, they were built around the time of the grouping at a time when the brake van designs were evolving, and although similar they were not quite the same as each other. 6373 appears to have been a late Midland diagram 1240 van, while 6372 had the LMS-style verandah but not the LMS-style ducket, although there was a gap in the handrails to allow for the latter. I have not been able to identify an exact match in the LMS diagrams, it is most similar to diagram 1657 but that had duckets. A similar transitional design is illustrated in Essery's book on LMS wagons. The diagonal bracing was probably added in early BR days, Here 6372 still looks quite smart in 1979. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandhole Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 20 hours ago, Mol_PMB said: Another eBay purchase, a nice photo of MSC brake van at Ellesmere Port. The Manchester Ship Canal Railway had very few brake vans, but there were a few at Ellesmere Port for use on the steeply graded link to Stanlow. 6372 and 6373 were purchased from the Bolton Wagon Co in August 1962 and were around 40 years old then - they survived well into the 1980s. Originating from Midland/LMS practice, they were built around the time of the grouping at a time when the brake van designs were evolving, and although similar they were not quite the same as each other. 6373 appears to have been a late Midland diagram 1240 van, while 6372 had the LMS-style verandah but not the LMS-style ducket, although there was a gap in the handrails to allow for the latter. I have not been able to identify an exact match in the LMS diagrams, it is most similar to diagram 1657 but that had duckets. A similar transitional design is illustrated in Essery's book on LMS wagons. The diagonal bracing was probably added in early BR days, Here 6372 still looks quite smart in 1979. Great shot. I just remember the engineers brakes on 'The Park.' You've posted some great shots of those already. Chris. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 I've just come across a nice archive of vintage transport images including a good selection of the MSC docks with road, rail and sea transport. Have a look here: https://www.stilltimecollection.co.uk/search/manchester ship Here's a link to a nice example showing MSC and BR wagons, and an MSC mechanical horse: There are plenty more, an especially nice selection of old road vehicles in an around the docks. Mol 9 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 Some extracts from the CLC 1927 'Handbook of Stations' giving details of connections to the MSC Railway and the industries served: 7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandhole Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 With the newly announced Sentinel 0-6-0 diesel in MSC livery, will we see Stanlow layouts, I wonder? Chris. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, Sandhole said: With the newly announced Sentinel 0-6-0 diesel in MSC livery, will we see Stanlow layouts, I wonder? Chris. Who by? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 The loco is announced by Hornby. There was a big network to go at, with connections to BR and many industries with their own locos: This MSC brake van is intended as a model of a vehicle used at Stanlow. The colours aren’t right though... http://www.penninewagons.co.uk/detail.php?id=5&gauge=n&sm=s (Should be black, and the pale coloured panel on the end was yellow, added in later years) 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swampy Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 On 02/01/2022 at 12:27, Mol_PMB said: I've just come across a nice archive of vintage transport images including a good selection of the MSC docks with road, rail and sea transport. Have a look here: https://www.stilltimecollection.co.uk/search/manchester ship Here's a link to a nice example showing MSC and BR wagons, and an MSC mechanical horse: There are plenty more, an especially nice selection of old road vehicles in an around the docks. Mol Interesting L&Y Dia 92 wagon on the right, with metal underframe. built 1920 ( L&Y wagons vol 1 p187). I pointed out a similar one in Jan 2021 in another thread. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 1 hour ago, swampy said: Interesting L&Y Dia 92 wagon on the right, with metal underframe. built 1920 ( L&Y wagons vol 1 p187). I pointed out a similar one in Jan 2021 in another thread. Ah, that's a really good spot, thank you. The MSC Railway had several of these, they keep cropping up in the edges of photos. The one in that shot is 5502, here is 5503 in an image sold on eBay: The L&Y wagons book has a photo of MSC 5476 of this type, while the HMRS collection includes MSC 5799 again the same. This aerial photo (heavy crop from britainfromabove) may show another (bit of an assumption based on its length) - it also shows one of the iron-bodied opens with cupboard doors that may have been cut down from iron minks, but that's another story... I'd like to model one of the L&Y opens as they are distinctive because of their length. There seem to be no kits available - maybe I need to create one? I'm getting more confident with the custom etches now. Mol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 There seems to be a lot of frothing about some of Hornby’s product announcements! With the new Sentinels in Manchester Ship Canal and Port of Bristol Authority liveries, surely the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board 0-4-2 loco is just part of Hornby’s laudable support of industrial railway modelling? It probably didn’t carry a name on the docks, who cares whether it’s Lion or Thunderbolt, either would have to be scraped off... (tongue firmly in cheek) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandhole Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said: There seems to be a lot of frothing about some of Hornby’s product announcements! With the new Sentinels in Manchester Ship Canal and Port of Bristol Authority liveries, surely the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board 0-4-2 loco is just part of Hornby’s laudable support of industrial railway modelling? It probably didn’t carry a name on the docks, who cares whether it’s Lion or Thunderbolt, either would have to be scraped off... (tongue firmly in cheek) Love this. Lets get stuff in perspective. Regards. Chris. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium JDW Posted January 14, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 14, 2022 On 05/01/2022 at 18:31, Mol_PMB said: A farmer named A. Pitchfork...? 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 Although the farmers aren't my core interest at all, I do find it fascinating that the railway's 'handbook of stations' would list them individually, and give some details of the traffic to and from the farms. The steelworks must have had hundreds of wagons in and out every day, yet the farmers with the odd few sacks every fortnight all get named individually. It's also interesting that there are apparently some family farming dynasties - the Blundells, Dandys and Mawdsleys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 Some more old photos, from original negatives I've bought on ebay. A selection of steam locos and some wagons creeping into the pics too. I like to model wagons which I know ran on the MSC railways, so photos with with legible wagon numbers are a bonus. 10 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 Are the buildings in the last photo the warehouses alongside the quays at Salford docks? I don’t think I’ve seen such clear photos - normally the background is out of focus, the photographer focussed either upon the ships or the engines/wagons/activity in the foreground. Steve S Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said: Are the buildings in the last photo the warehouses alongside the quays at Salford docks? I don’t think I’ve seen such clear photos - normally the background is out of focus, the photographer focussed either upon the ships or the engines/wagons/activity in the foreground. Steve S Yes, you’re right. Indeed just above the LMS wagon there is a legible sign that says ‘6 shed 9 dock south’ which positions the photo precisely. These are scans of large negatives, 90x60mm, hence the great quality. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandhole Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 5 hours ago, Mol_PMB said: Some more old photos, from original negatives I've bought on ebay. A selection of steam locos and some wagons creeping into the pics too. I like to model wagons which I know ran on the MSC railways, so photos with with legible wagon numbers are a bonus. Interesting you have a shot of the 'Hornby Peckett'. Do you know what date that is? You've got a 'Dazzler' and a standard Long Tank too. Great shots. Regards, Chris. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 1 minute ago, Sandhole said: Interesting you have a shot of the 'Hornby Peckett'. Do you know what date that is? You've got a 'Dazzler' and a standard Long Tank too. Great shots. Regards, Chris. Isnt the Hornby Peckett No 11 and the one in the picture looks like No77 ! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandhole Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 Just now, johnd said: Isnt the Hornby Peckett No 11 and the one in the picture looks like No77 ! Beggar, you are quite right. Consider my wrists slapped. Chris. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Moxy Posted January 16, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 16, 2022 6 hours ago, Mol_PMB said: Some more old photos, from original negatives I've bought on ebay. A selection of steam locos and some wagons creeping into the pics too. I like to model wagons which I know ran on the MSC railways, so photos with with legible wagon numbers are a bonus. MSC 77 is a Peckett W6 (1724/1927). The W4's MSC had were Nos 11 (654/1897) & 25 (907/1902). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 For a wagon spotter like myself (yes, I know, I'm rather sad), we can see: In the first photo, obviously van M154971, unfitted but unusually having had a repaint in BR grey. Most unfitted wagons didn't get repainted, and most vans were fitted with vacuum brakes and repainted bauxite. Also in the first photo, just above the loco's front buffers is a WWI Warflat, known by the war department and by the MSC Railway as 'Parrots'. It has vacuum pipes (at least) and retains its jacks under the bufferbeams which would be deployed when driving tanks along a rake of them. The MSC Railway had a dozen or so of these wagons but the few photos I have seen of them show the jacks and vacuum brakes removed. Most MSC ones also had a fancy cast numberplate at the right hand end of the frame, which I can't see here. I suspect therefore that this is a BR 'Parrot'. I assume there were still some in use in the 1960s? No wagons in the second photo. In the third photo is what looks like a pretty bog standard 16 mineral wagon, B275600, in fairly tidy condition. I've got an MMP kit for one of these to build, and so this might be a good number to pickk. In the fourth photo there are two open merchandise wagons, one with a legible number which is M423832. I think this high with wooden sides and corrugated steel ends was built unfitted by the LMS and later fitted by BR. Again, this has good potential for a model as I have an old ABS kit for a wagon of this type. The left-hand wagon in the fourth photo, the number on its cast plate on the solebar is almost legible, ? ?18267. It has a wooden frame and may be an LMS diagram 1666? Dare I ask @hmrspaul to have a look at this and the 'parrot'? 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 65179 Posted January 16, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 16, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, Mol_PMB said: For a wagon spotter like myself (yes, I know, I'm rather sad), we can see: In the first photo, obviously van M154971, unfitted but unusually having had a repaint in BR grey. Most unfitted wagons didn't get repainted, and most vans were fitted with vacuum brakes and repainted bauxite. Also in the first photo, just above the loco's front buffers is a WWI Warflat, known by the war department and by the MSC Railway as 'Parrots'. It has vacuum pipes (at least) and retains its jacks under the bufferbeams which would be deployed when driving tanks along a rake of them. The MSC Railway had a dozen or so of these wagons but the few photos I have seen of them show the jacks and vacuum brakes removed. Most MSC ones also had a fancy cast numberplate at the right hand end of the frame, which I can't see here. I suspect therefore that this is a BR 'Parrot'. I assume there were still some in use in the 1960s? No wagons in the second photo. In the third photo is what looks like a pretty bog standard 16 mineral wagon, B275600, in fairly tidy condition. I've got an MMP kit for one of these to build, and so this might be a good number to pickk. In the fourth photo there are two open merchandise wagons, one with a legible number which is M423832. I think this high with wooden sides and corrugated steel ends was built unfitted by the LMS and later fitted by BR. Again, this has good potential for a model as I have an old ABS kit for a wagon of this type. The left-hand wagon in the fourth photo, the number on its cast plate on the solebar is almost legible, ? ?18267. It has a wooden frame and may be an LMS diagram 1666? Dare I ask @hmrspaul to have a look at this and the 'parrot'? Yes the left hand wagon is a D1666 - five planks, deeper bottom plank, 9ft wooden underframe, double independent brakes, single door banger, no barrow plank. The one next time it is a D2150 - LMS design, but BR built with M prefix from new. Vac fitted by BR as you surmise. M154971 is an LMS D1832A van. Repainting unfitted opens was unusual, but I'm not sure that applies to vans. New unfitted vans were still being built at nationalisation and there are plenty of photos of older repainted vans; sometimes even in the correct livery. I'm not sure about the warflat, but is it one of the bogie bolster conversions? Regards Simon Edited January 17, 2022 by 65179 To remove offending reference to parrot 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 17 hours ago, 65179 said: Yes the left hand wagon is a D1666 - five planks, deeper bottom plank, 9ft wooden underframe, double independent brakes, single door banger, no barrow plank. The one next time it is a D2150 - LMS design, but BR built with M prefix from new. Vac fitted by BR as you surmise. M154971 is an LMS D1832A van. Repainting unfitted opens was unusual, but I'm not sure that applies to vans. New unfitted vans were still being built at nationalisation and there are plenty of photos of older repainted vans; sometimes even in the correct livery. I'm not sure about the parrot, but is it one of the bogie bolster conversions? Regards Simon Not a PARROT any more (eh gods none of us had heard this usage for Warflats before Bachy produced one! A PARROT to us was a long case wagon) It is Warflat converted to a Bogie Bolster B. The Bolster is very clear. The LMS had 412 of these, nice photograph as Plate 29 in Essery's LMS Wagons vol 2 but he doesn't seem to have seen Diag 19 in the LMS Special diag. book. 410 remained at end of 1951. Unfortunately the few I know where BBB converts had lost bolsters by the time I saw them. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/warflat Agreed the instructions for not repainting wagons was for open wagons with wooden frames (possibly half the fleet at Nationalisation!) but at some stage new and old unfitted wagons (including opens on steel frames) were repainted and there are plenty of photos of vans nicely repainted in grey. Paul 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 Many thanks Paul, much appreciated. The MSC Railway did call them Parrots (they were fitted with bolsters), I've modelled one of the MSC examples. To me, there's some sense in Parrots and Macaws being similar vehicles. The Loriot ought to be too, really! 6 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 This is the link to the other WW1 bogie flat known as a Poll, on rail album. The one that is produced b Parkside in 4mm scale. http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/ww1-war-department-poll-wagons-1.htm 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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