george stein Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Clueless in the USA. I count at least thirty (30) different PO coal wagon liveries for Oxford-based coal merchants - available either r-t-r or via transfers/decals. Now Oxford is not a big city and there are PO coal wagons for the neighboring towns. So, how did this work? Approximately how often would a coal merchant (say "Stephens" or "Woodley") receive one or more wagon loads of coal? Did each merchant have a section of the goods yard? How quickly were "empties" returned to Wales (or wherever)? I'm asking in an attempt to assemble a +/- accurate unfitted GWR goods train heading towards Oxford -- two or three PO wagons? Six to ten? Odd question I know, but trying to build an accurate rake of PO wagons with over thirty different coal merchants to choose from is a bit of a puzzle. As an aside, I wonder if any of the colleges had their own wagons? Never say any evidence of that. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 A few things to think about. Firstly, not all of the PO liveries or coal merchants would necessarily have existed at the same time. Businesses started, grew and failed. Matching livery and era will help you. The number of wagons arriving per day would depend a lot on how many customers each business had. Some commercially available PO wagon liveries are pre WW1 incorrectly put on later wagons. Secondly, PO wagons spent very little time on the move. Many merchants used them as a sort of mobile coal store. I think that I can remember somewhere reading that a typical PO would be moving for less than 2 weeks in a year. The coal traffic itself is quite complicated. Ordinary house coal might come from the nearest pit. Gas coal for the gasworks would often come from pits where the coal had a naturally high gas content such as the Midlands and Yorkshire. Coal for heating the brewing industry needed a low sulphur content and typically Anthracite from South Wales would be used. Coal would not just come in wagons belonging to local merchants but also in colliery wagons and probably the larger regional/national coal dealers such as "Stephenson Clarke". The best way to get a typical train is to look at old photos from the era that you are interested in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad_Hatter Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 the brewing industry needed a low sulphur content and typically Anthracite from South Wales would be used. The brewing industry mainly used South Wales coal due to the low arsenic content in the coal. Some of the Scottish coal was the same. This was made law to stop people dying due to high arsenic content in their beer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted July 29, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 29, 2015 Just to add to the confusion, quite a lot of coal was carried in coal factors; wagons, which could circulate widely. Organisations such as gas and electricity works often used coal factors. This might go straight to the works but smaller works may have the coal delivered to the goods yard and carted. Keith Turton has now produced 13 books on PO wagons which include a great deal of information about the period of operation and the areas from where the merchants involved received their coal as well as the areas where collieries and factors had contracts.. There is a 14th volume due soon and after that Keith tells me that he is preparing an index to the whole series, covering some 2000 organisations. In answer to a specific question, coal merchants often rented space from the railway company and often had small buildings on site. One thing to beware of is that not only are many of the private owner liveries available ready to run restricted to limited periods, but a large number are on wagons not only too modern but also unprototypical, being 17ft 6 in long. Until Nationalisation most wagons were no longer than 16ft and in earlier days many were only 15 ft long. There are drawings of many of the RCH standard designs in the book on the Ince Wagon Co published by the HMRS and now a snip at only £7 plus p&p. Jonathan David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad_Hatter Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Just to add to the confusion, quite a lot of coal was carried in coal factors; wagons, which could circulate widely. Organisations such as gas and electricity works often used coal factors. This might go straight to the works but smaller works may have the coal delivered to the goods yard and carted. Keith Turton has now produced 13 books on PO wagons which include a great deal of information about the period of operation and the areas from where the merchants involved received their coal as well as the areas where collieries and factors had contracts.. There is a 14th volume due soon and after that Keith tells me that he is preparing an index to the whole series, covering some 2000 organisations. In answer to a specific question, coal merchants often rented space from the railway company and often had small buildings on site. One thing to beware of is that not only are many of the private owner liveries available ready to run restricted to limited periods, but a large number are on wagons not only too modern but also unprototypical, being 17ft 6 in long. Until Nationalisation most wagons were no longer than 16ft and in earlier days many were only 15 ft long. There are drawings of many of the RCH standard designs in the book on the Ince Wagon Co published by the HMRS and now a snip at only £7 plus p&p. Jonathan David First do your homework well as some of the RTR wagons could be fictitious liveries, also yes they are a lot which use the 17'6" LMS steel under-frame for the wagons. The RCH 1923 wagons were 16'6" long with the RCH 1908 wagons 16'0" long. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted August 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 2, 2015 One thing to beware of is that not only are many of the private owner liveries available ready to run restricted to limited periods, but a large number are on wagons not only too modern but also unprototypical, being 17ft 6 in long. First do your homework well as some of the RTR wagons could be fictitious liveries, also yes they are a lot which use the 17'6" LMS steel under-frame for the wagons. The RCH 1923 wagons were 16'6" long with the RCH 1908 wagons 16'0" long. That might be the case with certain manufacturers but the Bachmann 5 and 7 plank wagons measure in at a scale 16' 6" and are on wooden under-frames. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbr Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The brewing industry mainly used South Wales coal due to the low arsenic content in the coal. Some of the Scottish coal was the same. This was made law to stop people dying due to high arsenic content in their beer. Could you expand on this, please? I am curious to know how any content of the coal, be it sulphur or arsenic, got in to the beer. Do you have any details on the law you refer to? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Through atmospheric contamination I would think. With reference to the RCH regulations. These were quite detailed, but flexible as regards the actual wagon specification, merely specifying maximum dimensions of 9 feet for wheelbase* and 16 feet 6 inches for length over headstocks (17 foot 6 inches for coke wagons). The Bachmann wagons are based on the 1923 12 ton specification**, which differed little from the 1907 specification for 12 ton wagons. The main difference AFAIK was in the brakegear, which was still allowed to be one-sided in 1907. From 1911, it had to be two-sided, but there were extended periods for conversion. Most wagons had a wooden frame (for reasons of cost and relatively easy repair), but iron or steel frames were permitted. These became more common later on as the price of wood escalated. * There was also a minimum dimension of course (7' 6" IIRC), but most wagons had a 9 foot wheelbase. ** This was adopted by the LMS and LNER as their standard mineral wagon. The GWR obviously preferred something superior and produced their own 20 ton all steel designs. The Southern Railway avoided the issue altogether and their coal traffic travelled in P.O.wagons Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad_Hatter Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Could you expand on this, please? I am curious to know how any content of the coal, be it sulphur or arsenic, got in to the beer. Do you have any details on the law you refer to? Unable to find the law quickly, but go to page 54 of this article. http://www.breweryhistory.com/journal/archive/132/Death_in_a_beerglass.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Unable to find the law quickly, but go to page 54 of this article. http://www.breweryhistory.com/journal/archive/132/Death_in_a_beerglass.pdf Ah, you beat me to it! The problem was in the malt drying kiln (and also I suppose in the hop-drying oasts as well) which is why most of them used anthracite from South Wales which is arsenic free. It was also used for warming greenhouses in winter which is why these wagons could turn up almost anywhere. I don't know if there was ever a law mandating the use of anthracite, just a general desire not to get sued? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Through atmospheric contamination I would think. With reference to the RCH regulations. These were quite detailed, but flexible as regards the actual wagon specification, merely specifying maximum dimensions of 9 feet for wheelbase* and 16 feet 6 inches for length over headstocks (17 foot 6 inches for coke wagons). The Bachmann wagons are based on the 1923 12 ton specification**, which differed little from the 1907 specification for 12 ton wagons. The main difference AFAIK was in the brakegear, which was still allowed to be one-sided in 1907. From 1911, it had to be two-sided, but there were extended periods for conversion. Most wagons had a wooden frame (for reasons of cost and relatively easy repair), but iron or steel frames were permitted. These became more common later on as the price of wood escalated. * There was also a minimum dimension of course (7' 6" IIRC), but most wagons had a 9 foot wheelbase. ** This was adopted by the LMS and LNER as their standard mineral wagon. The GWR obviously preferred something superior and produced their own 20 ton all steel designs. The Southern Railway avoided the issue altogether and their coal traffic travelled in P.O.wagons Brakes both sides were required for all new build wagons from 1912 onwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted August 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 4, 2015 Elsewhere on RMWeb at the moment there is a live thread on PO wagons with lists of known wagons, as illustrated in books and magazines. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Brakes both sides were required for all new build wagons from 1912 onwards. To be precise, they had to be operable from both sides, only one set of brake gear was actually required. There were also requirements for right-handed levers and for release of the brake to be from the same side it was applied. The latter upset the GWR, as the Dean-Churchward brake can be released from either side. (They managed to obtain an exemption, but it was gradually phased out. The last vehicles to be fitted with it were built just before WW II (IIRC). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Yorkie Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Am I right in thinking that arsenic was involved with 'Mad Hatters' as well? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drduncan Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Elsewhere on RMWeb at the moment there is a live thread on PO wagons with lists of known wagons, as illustrated in books and magazines. Jonathan Could you supply a link to this thread?Drduncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 With reference to the RCH regulations. These were quite detailed, but flexible as regards the actual wagon specification, merely specifying maximum dimensions of 9 feet for wheelbase and 16 feet 6 inches for length over headstocks (17 foot 6 inches for coke wagons). The Bachmann wagons are based on the 1923 12 ton specification, which differed little from the 1907 specification for 12 ton wagons. The main difference AFAIK was in the brakegear, which was still allowed to be one-sided in 1907. From 1911, it had to be two-sided, but there were extended periods for conversion. Most wagons had a wooden frame (for reasons of cost and relatively easy repair), but iron or steel frames were permitted. These became more common later on as the price of wood escalated.I'm prepared to be shot down here, but was 1907 an RCH specification, whilst 1911 was a BoT regulation. Remember the RCH had various specs, including 10,12,15 tons. If you look closely at the specs, they are very much what Charles Roberts was building. The 1907 spec gave the Gloucester company latitude to continue their existing designs but the 1923 spec forced them into line. A point about the specs is that wagons had standard components so could be repaired anywhere in the country. Wandering off the point, this was why the LBSC wagons (with non standard components) were shipped over to the Isle of Wight. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Smeeton Posted August 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 4, 2015 Am I right in thinking that arsenic was involved with 'Mad Hatters' as well? Mercury was the problem here, endemic in Luton, the home of Felt hats. Some say endemic there to this day. Hat, coat left behind as I make my escape Regards Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad_Hatter Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Could you supply a link to this thread? Drduncan http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/98911-private-owner-wagons-index-searchable/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I'm prepared to be shot down here, but was 1907 an RCH specification, whilst 1911 was a BoT regulation. Remember the RCH had various specs, including 10,12,15 tons. If you look closely at the specs, they are very much what Charles Roberts was building. The 1907 spec gave the Gloucester company latitude to continue their existing designs but the 1923 spec forced them into line. A point about the specs is that wagons had standard components so could be repaired anywhere in the country. Wandering off the point, this was why the LBSC wagons (with non standard components) were shipped over to the Isle of Wight. Bill I believe you are right regarding 1907 RCH specification and the 1911 regulation on brake gear. Generally local merchants preferred the smaller 8 and 10 ton wagons, but the 1923 specification forced them to use 12 ton wagons or buy second hand. AFAIK all the current models are 1923 specification (though the erroneous 10 foot wheelbase is still to be found). If an earlier wagon is required, the choice is limited to kits (both Gloucester and Roberts versions are in the Slater's range) or there are some archaic wagons from Hornby. (Archaic in the sense that the models have been around for a long time -a side door dating from around 1950 and a end door with side 'cupboard' doors (why did they chose these, uncommon and generally limited to north of the border?) from about 25 years later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Generally local merchants preferred the smaller 8 and 10 ton wagons, but the 1923 specification forced them to use 12 ton wagons or buy second hand. Not really. The 1907 type wagons were still more numerous than the 1923 type into1950s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Exactly - the age of the mineral wagon stock was one reason for the massive replacement programme during the 50s. The aim was to eliminate grease boxes, wooden underframes and uneconomic small wagons. Whether the huge expenditure of taxpayers' money was worthwhile is another matter. I seem to recall seeing a photo of a wagon lettered for a college, but can't remember which one. You can always do 'St Trinian's'! (I've got a few wagons to letter, perhaps I will do one! I understand the average domestic consumption was about 1 ton per annum. To even out sales, there was often a discount for summer deliveries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Exactly - the age of the mineral wagon stock was one reason for the massive replacement programme during the 50s. The aim was to eliminate grease boxes, wooden underframes and uneconomic small wagons. Whether the huge expenditure of taxpayers' money was worthwhile is another matter. I seem to recall seeing a photo of a wagon lettered for a college, but can't remember which one. You can always do 'St Trinian's'! (I've got a few wagons to letter, perhaps I will do one! I understand the average domestic consumption was about 1 ton per annum. To even out sales, there was often a discount for summer deliveries. Marlborough College certainly had its own wagons, and maybe there are others.It seems that for many decades the UK had a total consumption of around 200 million tons of coal, with around 50 million tons being used in households. That would equate to a bit over a ton per head per year, so a household would take around five tons a year (2.4 children). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george stein Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 Gee, and I just asked what I thought was a simple question!!!! Great discussion - very informative - thanks for responding. Quick question & quick comment. Question: are the generic OO scale Dapol 5 & 7 plank wagons reasonably accurate? And, of course, Grifone, there's also "Jordan College" of P. Pullman's "His Dark Materials," the various "colleges" in the Morse detective series, and those of countless British mystery writers. I'm afraid copyright will prevent PO wagons for however coal was delivered to a certain school for wizards. Really find this site essential for accuracy discussions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Marlborough College certainly had its own wagons, and maybe there are others. It seems that for many decades the UK had a total consumption of around 200 million tons of coal, with around 50 million tons being used in households. That would equate to a bit over a ton per head per year, so a household would take around five tons a year (2.4 children). You would have to take into account the unequal distribution of wealth. The poorer families probably would have not been able to afford a ton per head. Gee, and I just asked what I thought was a simple question!!!! Great discussion - very informative - thanks for responding. Quick question & quick comment. Question: are the generic OO scale Dapol 5 & 7 plank wagons reasonably accurate? And, of course, Grifone, there's also "Jordan College" of P. Pullman's "His Dark Materials," the various "colleges" in the Morse detective series, and those of countless British mystery writers. I'm afraid copyright will prevent PO wagons for however coal was delivered to a certain school for wizards. Really find this site essential for accuracy discussions. The later 9 foot wheelbase wagons aren't too bad, but the 10 foot one has its origins in a Hornby Dublo wagon from the late fifties. This was supposedly a general merchandise wagon and was not too accurate even by the standards of the period (the sides were stretched upwards to fit the box!). A pity as the Dublo models were generally excellent for their period (underframe excepted). I'm not sure about copyright concerning the wizard school in the case of an 'own design'. Only the name could be claimed as copyright infringement, in any case, provided logos etc. are not used. Once upon a time the model manufacturing companies were paid (or so I believe) for the advertising, now it's the other way round. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davepen Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Not really about Oxford - or other colleges, but some info on PO wagons. Before WWI, my Great*2, Grandfather had started a Wholesale(?) Coal Merchants. The office was in the Coal Exchange in Cardiff Docks. As kid I thought the trading floor had cleaned up well, with all that coal on the floor. Even in the 70's the office had some pictures on the wall of wagons at the Builder's (Gloucester and Midland-Birmingham). Dad has also shown me a ledger, which was from the GWR, which listed every station, to which one of my Great*2 Uncles had add the rates to supply coal from different collieries. Apparently one of his major tasks was to track down and return wagons to the collieries. When the office closed in about 1980, there were a stack of "return empty to so and so colliery" labels which were attached to the trucks. I'm sure one story was more than one wagon was lost when it fell in to a blast furnace. I've also seen a online reference to British Railway Journal showing one at Faslane, although this would have been after they were "pooled" for WWII. The wagon company was would up in 1948 after nationalisation. Lorries were then hired. Dad says he did remember a row of wagons lined up outside Penarth Docks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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