RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted August 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2015 Thoughts on taking 10 days to clear up and reopen, rather than just dumping any non-repairable wagons down the bank to recover later...? You have been looking at too many American derailment incidents. I remember going by the site of a fatal Amtrak crash with a transformer on a low loader that grounded South of Orlando in the 90's. trains were running including Amtrtak just days after the accident with Amtrak cars mangled and twisted alongside, literally just pushed out of the way. Seen numeorus other wagons pushed out the way on other routes when on board Amtrak. of course its very different to the way we do things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 BR just pushed derailed wagons down the bank on occasion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2015 Looking at the aerial view 10 days does strike me as excessive unless 7 of them will be spent getting the crane to the site. At least 4 of the wagons could be easily rerailed with jacking gear while those that are spread across the boundary are empty and all look like very simple lifts although things might well look different on the ground of course. And 3 days to repair the track does sound a lot - maybe it includes completing the original work in the possession? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 You have been looking at too many American derailment incidents. LOL - probably true, but as Edwin says it's been done many times over here. (Some of them are still there...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted August 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 3, 2015 How long did it take to clear up Quintinshill or Harrow & Wealdstone, both horrific disasters that I'm glad were not replicated here. But I'll bet it was less than 10 days. And this is progress? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Actually, for something like that I could understand 10 days - (from memory Heck was that kind of length) as like it or not you'd have large emergency service responses, then potentially crime scene/forensic kind of things going on before "the railway" could even regain control of the site, and everything being done under the gaze of media scrutiny. 10 days for a few 4 wheel ballast wagons sounds a bit extreme though... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Harrow at least would have been quite a lot more accessible. And this being on a single line means there's no adjacent line to bring kit in on. Plus those were on the WCML. This is a branch line. How long did it take to reopen after grayrigg? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted August 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2015 Her is the aftermath of the fatal Amtrak crash in 1993 with passenger train running again after only a few days yet some cars still close to the tracks. Most of the cars including the damaged loco had already been moved to Sanford auto terminal. The crossing where we were standing (location of the impact) was being controlled by flag men. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiderHead Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Harrow at least would have been quite a lot more accessible. And this being on a single line means there's no adjacent line to bring kit in on. https://www.google.com/maps/place/55°25'35.4%22N+4°14'20.1%22W/@55.426494,-4.238929,165m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0 Theres a road either side of the double track lines and what looks like an occupation crossing, no trees and flat ground beyond the ?5' embankment - not the trickiest site Ive seen! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I've mentioned it before, but watching the live stream in this thread was amazing. The new track was being delivered the day after the accident while the wreckage was being removed. Admittedly access was easier than this crash, but I still think we make a meal of it. A wobbly vid of some of it is here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The roads are probably single track, with tight bends, not suitable for heavy vehicles even if the road edge (or whole road) does not collapse under the weight. They were designed for horses & carts & not substantially upgraded since - like many minor roads round the country. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2015 How long did it take to clear up Quintinshill or Harrow & Wealdstone, both horrific disasters that I'm glad were not replicated here. But I'll bet it was less than 10 days. And this is progress? The Harrow collision occurred at c.08.19 on 08 October completely blocking the Fast Lines and with one engine wedged underneath, and partially lifting, the station footbridge. The Slow Lines were covered with various detritus from the collisions but were needed to allow access for casualty evacuation. The first crane (ex Willesden)arrived at 09.40 and was at work at 10.45, the 2nd crane (ex Northampton) arrived at 11.28 and was at work at 13.25, the 3rd crane arrived at 12.40 and was at work by 15.35 while the 4th crane (ex Crewe) arrived at 21.55. The 3rd crane, from Kentish Town, suffered a defect and was replaced by a WR crane from Old Oak Common which arrived at 15.45 on the 9th. The Up & Down Slow Lines were reopened at 05.32 on the 9th, the Up & Down Fasts were reopened at 20.00 on the 12th with a temporary speed restriction, full normal working over the running lines was resumed by the 13th. The station footbridge, which had to be partially removed to release one of the engines was replaced by a temporary structure which was brought into use by the evening of the 12th; a new permanent footbridge was brought into use on 09 November. I can't find any details for Quintinshill but would be surprised if normal working was not resumed in no more than a few days. I think we need to understand some important differences from today. The first is that in general there seems to have been a greater urgency to get in and get the site cleared as quickly as possible in order that normal working could be resumed. While evidence clearly had t be preserved there was a lot less concern about picking things up and damaging them in the process if it helped to get the clear-up moving along, shoving wagons down a bank is a later example of this and with wagons we used to get involved in all sorts of 'tricks of the trade' to get the job of rerailing along while happily leaving someone to subsequently put back together what we had somehow taken apart in order to move something (buffers being a favourite although OLEOs were a nuisance as they had to be burnt off!). It could be said that we didn't worry about H&S and all that sort of thing but that's not necessarily true - what we didn't worry about were those who tried to impose petty-frogging nonsense and held things up. Alas I suspect there are far fewer folk about today who are prepared to stand up to their, and other, hierachical superiors and tell them to get out of the way or go somewhere else. And people weren't afraid to bend the odd Rule or whatever to make some progress including making 'access' quickly available. But the big difference was having folk to hand with the expertise and the necessary kit - there were plenty of breakdown gangs (all highly experienced) and plenty of traffic folk who were happy to get things moved aside to give them room to work. I get the impression much of that has changed massively and even by the time of privatisation there were already a few official busybodies about who had to be dealt with if you dared. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Jonboy Posted August 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2015 Is there also the much "better" modern alternative transport methods, such as bustitution to ease the pressure to re-open to consider? (* "better" compared to horse and cart etc. rather than better than a train) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Even so, at a major incident with multiple fatalities I dont think you would have a crane in action 2.5 hours after it happened even if the crane was already right there and set up, emergency services would still be in charge and most likely still searching the scene. At Harrow the best method of searching further may well have been to get the railway to start lifting stuff, but I'd doubt that would be seen as acceptable these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted August 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2015 7 days at least for the paperwork. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic17 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Harrow at least would have been quite a lot more accessible. And this being on a single line means there's no adjacent line to bring kit in on. Plus those were on the WCML. This is a branch line. How long did it take to reopen after grayrigg? I know there were some single sections on the mainly double track Carlisle-Glasgow route when I knew it quite a number of years ago but the end of the BBC video appears to show this section as double track so you would have thought a rail mounted crane could have been used for relatively small wagons (why does the Network Rail Director call them 'carriages' at one point?) but it is difficult to fully understand the geographical landscape faced with from mainly photographs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiderHead Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Not directly relevant, but heres a nice (if long) video of 37273 being rerailed by Old Oak and Canton's recovery crews Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted August 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2015 video of 37273 being derailed by Old Oak and Canton's recovery crews a bit unprofessional derailing it! cracking video, love the way once its back on the rails they just drag it off site as part of the consist Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiderHead Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Yeah, catch points doing their thing. Hope the driver was ok, that was a nasty stack. edit: hmmm ... the spellchecker changed rerailing to derailing ... how do I disable this idiot AI? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 As derailments were far more frequent in the past, there would have been much more of both equipment and expertise available to restore operation more quickly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Also, big road cranes are a relatively recent thing. In the 'old days' the railway owned the big mobile cranes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 4, 2015 Is there also the much "better" modern alternative transport methods, such as bustitution to ease the pressure to re-open to consider? (* "better" compared to horse and cart etc. rather than better than a train) Getting hold of 'buses in an emergency situation is not as easy as it might sound. Most operators have vehicles on regular contracts , e.g. school work, and can't take then of that work while driver's hours are limited. And firms simply can't afford to have spare bods and vehicles around in case someone rings up and asks for half a dozen double deckers at 10 minutes notice. So not as straightforward as it might sound. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted August 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 4, 2015 Getting hold of 'buses in an emergency situation is not as easy as it might sound. Most operators have vehicles on regular contracts , e.g. school work, and can't take then of that work while driver's hours are limited. And firms simply can't afford to have spare bods and vehicles around in case someone rings up and asks for half a dozen double deckers at 10 minutes notice. So not as straightforward as it might sound. True - but in school holidays (i.e. now) bus companies would presumably have some spare capacity. Its also why big engineering jobs tend to occur over Christmas, Easter, Bank holiday weekends etc. With regard to the wider recovery debate, a glance at the statistics will show that big derailments requiring craning are few and far between on todays railway thanks to improvements over the years. Thus just as it is uneconomic to have lots of spare buses and crews around just in case the railway might need them, it is also uneconomic to have lots of cranes and associated staff hanging about in case of a mishap that cannot be dealt with via the use of jacks, etc. Hiring road cranes also means the railway doesn't have to bother about maintaining them or keeping the operators training up to scratch, so in an age where money is everything (especially to the industries paymasters at the DfT / Treasury), contracting in lifting provision when required is more efficient. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Bit of a tricky question - does today's longer evidence-gathering period result in better information and better lessons learnt than the good old days? I don't know how you'd even go about working this out, as you can't now know the "unknown unknowns" that people may have missed under the older methods to get things cleared up as quickly as possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Depot Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Would rather they say 10 days and do it in 9 then say 7-8 and it overrun. Loco seems to have stood up well and may yet see another days work. having done a few derailment investigations in the past its not hard to see what the first questions might be.... keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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