Kernow Model Rail Centre - Bulleid Diesel

[Jamiel]

But bulleid used continental practice for numbering .. 21c.. etc for Pacific’s, Cxx for the Q1

So presumably it should have been 1CC1201 ?

 They were released to traffic under British Rail so has their numbering sequence, however the first loco being 10201 is a little odd, compared with the BR Standards.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Jamiel

[Southernman46]

Damn - that's nice - might have to get a green one too now ........

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/33039/K2704-Bulleid-1-Co-Co-1-Diesel-Locomotive-number-10203

[Dunsignalling]

 They were release to traffic under British Rail so has their numbering sequence, however the first loco being 10201 is a little odd, compared with the BR Standards.

1xxxx was reserved for diesel locos and the numbering of Southern Region diesels is unlikely to have held any interest for the LMS/steam-orientated BR CME of the day. 

 

What it does suggest is that the numbers were probably allocated at regional level rather than by "head office".

 

John

 

Incidentally, had Bulleid's practice been followed, the number series would be 11CCx to match how the Merchant Navies were done. OVSB got the order wrong on the Pacifics which should logically have been numbered 2C1x rather than 21Cx.  

Edited December 4, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[nnich]

Interesting replies to my question of the day. I think you maybe hit it on the head dunsignalling. It probably depends on whose hand was in charge at the build time of the first of each series. The southern railway / region did indeed start all othe bulleid classes at number 1. (I love the thought of 1CC1201). whereas the midland BR method often started at 0 as evidenced by the later standard classes. I know 10000 was completed under the auspices of the LMS and attributed to Ivatt. But someone remind me. Wasn't Riddles ( who started sequences at 0) involved somehow. 10201 however was indeed a Bulleid brain child

 

Fascinating to wonder whether the trainspotters of the day when copping 10201 wondered whether they'd ever see 10200. Or were they all well informed even in those days via their Ian Allen ABC's and the pages of Railway Magazine?

 

And who among us will be the first to renumber their new model to 1CC1201/2/3? I think I'm having an off day!!!!!

Norm

[nnich]

OK guys. My brain is definitely having a field day. Here's another question to ponder. We're told that 10201 and 10202 often worked as a pair. Same goes for 10000 and 10001. But could they work in multiple with each other? 10000 and 10201 on the Bournemouth Belle- now that would be a sight!! Were the mu controls compatible?

Who will be the first to run such a train on their layout? Off for a nice cup of tea now!!!!!

[Dunsignalling]

OK guys. My brain is definitely having a field day. Here's another question to ponder. We're told that 10201 and 10202 often worked as a pair. Same goes for 10000 and 10001. But could they work in multiple with each other? 10000 and 10201 on the Bournemouth Belle- now that would be a sight!! Were the mu controls compatible?

Who will be the first to run such a train on their layout? Off for a nice cup of tea now!!!!!

AFAIK there was no multiple working facility fitted to either type.

 

When worked in tandem, the locos' through corridors were connected up and both were crewed.

 

John   

Edited December 4, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Ian Hargrave]

Interesting replies to my question of the day. I think you maybe hit it on the head dunsignalling. It probably depends on whose hand was in charge at the build time of the first of each series. The southern railway / region did indeed start all othe bulleid classes at number 1. (I love the thought of 1CC1201). whereas the midland BR method often started at 0 as evidenced by the later standard classes. I know 10000 was completed under the auspices of the LMS and attributed to Ivatt. But someone remind me. Wasn't Riddles ( who started sequences at 0) involved somehow. 10201 however was indeed a Bulleid brain child

Fascinating to wonder whether the trainspotters of the day when copping 10201 wondered whether they'd ever see 10200. Or were they all well informed even in those days via their Ian Allen ABC's and the pages of Railway Magazine?

And who among us will be the first to renumber their new model to 1CC1201/2/3? I think I'm having an off day!!!!!

Norm

King coal still ruled the rails until the "Modernisation Plan" of the mid 50's. Main line diesels were a curiosity to both the trainspotting fraternity and to railwaymen alike.Expertise and resources for diesel traction were minimal and had to take their place in the grander scheme of things....which is why all five mainline diesels spent most of their existence in the works waiting their turn for both spares and attention.After all ,the U.K. sat on a mountain of coal,didn't it ? The fact that burning vast amounts of it contributed to poor quality air and the famous London "smog" took a long time to sink in to the minds of those

who ran post war Austerity Britain. But sink in it eventually did and then we had a diesel avalanche from1958 on which took with it those first diesel pioneers too.They became redundant.

 

Intriguing fact: On the rail transport stand at the South Bank exhibition in the summer of 1951,10201 shared the stand with 70004 ....Britannia "William Shakespeare" .Both were brand new.Both were later to work the "Golden Arrow". WS outlasted 10201 by a couple of years

[No Decorum]

Incidentally, had Bulleid's practice been followed, the number series would be 11CCx to match how the Merchant Navies were done. OVSB got the order wrong on the Pacifics which should logically have been numbered 2C1x rather than 21Cx.  

He probably did that to avoid the 1 seeming to be part of the individual loco number.

[rembrow]

I emailed Kernow yesterday, via their web contact system, to ask if they could give more information in this weeks newsletter about whether they had received sufficient Bulleid models in this shipment, to meet the prepayment customers orders. They replied in an hour which I hadn't expected. The response is that for 10201 they are not certain yet, as they are waiting for responses from about 100 customers who they have contacted for payment details. However as they are giving priority to prepaid customers, sounds like there will be enough 10201s for all who prepaid. In all probability there will be some of the 100 who are no longer contactable or who no longer wish to purchase.

 

For 10202 the picture is more definite in that they have said they have enough to go round for pre orders. 

[217 RIVER FLESK]

AFAIK there was no multiple working facility fitted to either type.

 

When worked in tandem, the locos' through corridors were connected up and both were crewed.

 

John   

 

I thought the LMS twins were equipment with multiple working.

 

If you have a look at this photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/3948696193/in/pool-1680866@N24/ you should just be able to pick out the jumper sockets either side of the coupling

 

As to the Bulleid twins, thought they gained multiple when they went over to the LMR. If you look at this pic http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/0001-k-long-flickr-10201.jpg you can see two hinged panels either side of the gangway, I assume that these are hiding the mu connectors

[Covkid]

AFAIK there was no multiple working facility fitted to either type.

 

When worked in tandem, the locos' through corridors were connected up and both were crewed.

 

John   

 

 

Not sure about that. If both locos were crewed why bother with the gangway doors.

The Modern locomotives Illustrated bookazine No 185 makes several mentions of the multi working capabilities latterly fitted to these locos and a colour photo of 10001 in green clearly shows the red diamond multi code on the yellow panels. Personally I am not totally trustworthy of the MLL publications but a red diamond is clearly an MU code.

 

The same publication states in the data panel that neither 10201-10202 and 10203 were multiple fitted. Despite this statement, on page 35 there is a photo of 10202 clearly coupled to another with the gangways extended and a multi cable joining them. The caption reads 10202 and 10201 working in multiple at Carlisle on 16th April 1957, the use of the communicating doors is clearly visible, as are the position of the red triangle multiple control jumpers. The socket was behind a hinged flap, and the cable when not in use was stowed inside the engine room.

 

It would be very easy to question whether the red diamond on 10001 was actually the red triangle on 10202 or vice versa, particularly when colours were provided for clarity. Would BTC have specified two red shapes, or would one have been blue or green or white or yellow ?

[Dunsignalling]

Not sure about that. If both locos were crewed why bother with the gangway doors.

The Modern locomotives Illustrated bookazine No 185 makes several mentions of the multi working capabilities latterly fitted to these locos and a colour photo of 10001 in green clearly shows the red diamond multi code on the yellow panels. Personally I am not totally trustworthy of the MLL publications but a red diamond is clearly an MU code.

 

The same publication states in the data panel that neither 10201-10202 and 10203 were multiple fitted. Despite this statement, on page 35 there is a photo of 10202 clearly coupled to another with the gangways extended and a multi cable joining them. The caption reads 10202 and 10201 working in multiple at Carlisle on 16th April 1957, the use of the communicating doors is clearly visible, as are the position of the red triangle multiple control jumpers. The socket was behind a hinged flap, and the cable when not in use was stowed inside the engine room.

 

It would be very easy to question whether the red diamond on 10001 was actually the red triangle on 10202 or vice versa, particularly when colours were provided for clarity. Would BTC have specified two red shapes, or would one have been blue or green or white or yellow ?

The comment that started this off related to when the five locos were at work on the Southern Region and I am pretty certain that any MU working equipment was added  later than that, i.e. after they had been transferred to the LMR.

 

The 1963 Ian Allan "combine" states that 10000/1 were equipped for MU working using a system designated Red Diamond; 10201/2 as Red-and-White Square and 10203 (which lacked end doors), Blue Star. 

 

The last is the common system fitted by BR to most later locos so, in theory at least, 10203 could have run in multiple with EE Type 4s (which were directly developed from it, so not really surprising), the various "Peaks" and all the Type 1, 2 and 3 diesel electrics bar the first 20 Brush Type 2s and the MetroVick Co-Bos. It would be interesting to know if it ever did so, and photos would be even better.

 

The 1955/6 Abc makes no mention of MU working at all, but as 10000/1 and 10201-3 were the only main-line diesel electrics listed as working on BR at the time*, that also isn't surprising.

 

John

 

* Edit: Apart from the NBL 800hp Bo-Bo No.10800. The EE Deltic prototype isn't mentioned but that wasn't in BR ownership.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Roy Langridge]

Even in multi, gangway doors may have been used to service a steam heat boiler, which I think was fitted.

 

Roy

[nnich]

Fascinating stuff. Thanks for that information dunsignalling. So maybe even if I can't (prototypically at least) run a combination such as 10001 and 10202 in early black I could just about run 10203 in green with a Bachmann class 40 Only problem is it probably wouldn't be on the southern!!

Norm

Edited December 5, 2017 by nnich

[SRman]

Fascinating stuff. Thanks for that information dunsignalling. So maybe even if I can't (prototypically at least) run a combination such as 10001 and 10202 in early black I could just about run 10203 in green with a Bachmann class 40 Only problem is it probably wouldn't be on the southern!!

Norm

 

If you run 10203 and a class 40 together, there may not be much room left in your platforms for the rest of the train!   

[Ian Hargrave]

Fascinating stuff. Thanks for that information dunsignalling. So maybe even if I can't (prototypically at least) run a combination such as 10001 and 10202 in early black I could just about run 10203 in green with a Bachmann class 40 Only problem is it probably wouldn't be on the southern!!

Norm

You could but certainly not in multiple.As soon as the first LMR batch of Type 4 (D210 onwards) were delivered late 1959/ early 1960 the Bulleid diesels faded onto lighter duties such as Euston outer suburban duties along with the Derby twins.

[nnich]

You could but certainly not in multiple.As soon as the first LMR batch of Type 4 (D210 onwards) were delivered late 1959/ early 1960 the Bulleid diesels faded onto lighter duties such as Euston outer suburban duties along with the Derby twins.

.

 

This is all for fun but imagine the scenario. A failed class 40 on the Royal Scot. Lurking nearby is number 10203...... Rule 1 .....

And yes SRMan. I agree. The two together would take more than 2 coach lengths!!! Probably time to end these flights of fancy now but it's certainly helped the time pass as I wait for my package from Cornwall !!!

Norm

[stovepipe]

Would anyone who has received their model(s) in the last week, care to say when they ordered and paid? Just trying to gauge when I might get mine....thanks.

[JSpencer]

Would anyone who has received their model(s) in the last week, care to say when they ordered and paid? Just trying to gauge when I might get mine....thanks.

FWIW - I have spoken to them, they are dealing with gate stock first then the Bullieds will be sent. So far only 60 have been collected/sent (those for people who had gate stock going out at the same time).

 

All in stock are allocated waiting for Gate stock to clear which will be another couple of weeks.

[lymer]

When I spoke to them at Warley they mentioned that they were hoping to get them out before Christmas..... but you know how these things go that has probably all changed now

[JimHearne]

FWIW - I have spoken to them, they are dealing with gate stock first then the Bullieds will be sent. So far only 60 have been collected/sent (those for people who had gate stock going out at the same time).

 

All in stock are allocated waiting for Gate stock to clear which will be another couple of weeks.

 

I received my 10202 today with 2 sets of gate stock.

I paid straight away when they asked for the pre-payment.

 

Unfortunately the Bulleid is damaged so it's on it's way back to them tomorrow.

Squashed cab handrail plus the cab glazing pushed in.

I hope that doesn't put me back to the end of the queue.

 

Jim

[jonnyuk]

Sorry to drag my old post up, I received my replacement this week and have had chance to play tonight.

I now goes round the track without the front pony wheels derailing after some adjustment of the screw holding it in place (although I have to say the front pony’s consistently try to ride up the rails, typically over the fish plate joiners. however it still won’t go over a single point. The inner most axle wheels ride up on the v of the point. I know some of you have said get decent points but I will still argue the case that any modern train should be able to go over points, even the guy who did his review in this thread showed it derailing, that’s unacceptable. I’m now really debating whether I want to spend £160 on a train that can only go round and round and not go into siding etc.

Edited December 14, 2017 by jonnyuk

[mikesndbs]

Sorry to drag my old post up, I received my replacement this week and have had chance to play tonight.

I now goes round the track without the front pony wheels derailing after some adjustment of the screw holding it in place (although I have to say the front pony’s consistently try to ride up the rails, typically over the fish plate joiners. however it still won’t go over a single point. The inner most axle wheels ride up on the v of the point. I know some of you have said get decent points but I will still argue the case that any modern train should be able to go over points, even the guy who did his review in this thread showed it derailing, that’s unacceptable. I’m now really debating whether I want to spend £160 on a train that can only go round and round and not go into siding etc.

 

Hi

 

Not sure if you saw my video review of this loco, available from the link in my sig.

I tried it on a very tight set of Hornby set track crossovers and it went through one way but not the other.

To be honest I never expected it to go through the crossovers, however it runs through the points when set 'normal' with no issue at all.

Could we see some photos of your track and the loco getting into difficulty so we can offer you support?

[jonnyuk]

It will run through my points when set straight, it’s when they are set to turn off the straight section. I’ll take a video tomorrow night and post it up.

Thanks

[dibber25]

The comment that started this off related to when the five locos were at work on the Southern Region and I am pretty certain that any MU working equipment was added  later than that, i.e. after they had been transferred to the LMR.

 

The 1963 Ian Allan "combine" states that 10000/1 were equipped for MU working using a system designated Red Diamond; 10201/2 as Red-and-White Square and 10203 (which lacked end doors), Blue Star. 

 

The last is the common system fitted by BR to most later locos so, in theory at least, 10203 could have run in multiple with EE Type 4s (which were directly developed from it, so not really surprising), the various "Peaks" and all the Type 1, 2 and 3 diesel electrics bar the first 20 Brush Type 2s and the MetroVick Co-Bos. It would be interesting to know if it ever did so, and photos would be even better.

 

The 1955/6 Abc makes no mention of MU working at all, but as 10000/1 and 10201-3 were the only main-line diesel electrics listed as working on BR at the time*, that also isn't surprising.

 

John

 

* Edit: Apart from the NBL 800hp Bo-Bo No.10800. The EE Deltic prototype isn't mentioned but that wasn't in BR ownership.

 

The LMS 'twins' were used in multiple for comparisons with the two Ivatt 'Duchesses' (two diesels, one steam loco) on the WCML (the 'Royal Scot', I think). I recall an article on the trials in Steam World when I was Editor during the 1990s. I can't now remember what the outcome of the comparison trials was. (CJL)