Kernow Model Rail Centre - Bulleid Diesel

[WDP4D]

Hey,

 

When I was browsing through the KMRC website I came across this page that showed one of their exclusives - Bullied Diesel.

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/pg/111/Bulleid_Diesel

 

Couldn't find and topic on it, so when was it announced?

[Kris]

It was announced quite some time back at a time when KMRC was commissioning lots with Dapol. Since then that relationship has broken down further delaying many of KMRC's commissions. 

[rembrow]

Hey,

 

When I was browsing through the KMRC website I came across this page that showed one of their exclusives - Bullied Diesel.

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/pg/111/Bulleid_Diesel

 

Couldn't find and topic on it, so when was it announced?

I ordered the bigger diesel engine version, number 10203, as soon as it was announced in April 2011. As I recall the other 2 twins, 10201 and 10202 were already announced about a year earlier. This model is some time away from being built unfortunately, as the owner of Kernow, Chris Trerise, advised in an update on the models they were producing a few months ago, that the Bulleid diesels were still in the research stage, with the need to establish if any prototype drawings exist at the NRM. With the limited amount of research info and the locos being cut up, this ios going to be a long project, similar to the Class 41 Warships. I suspect that Kernow may have to go down the same route as they did with the Class 41 development, which was to work with a master modelmaker working in Gauge 1, to produce a model in that gauge that could then be converted to '00' gauge cad/cam.

[250BOB]

I do wonder if demand for the Bulleid diesels is not there, which may have been reflected in the number of pre orders being low. ?

I don't see any of the mainstream manufacturers picking this one up either, at least in the foreseeable future.

I too noted the update from Chris at Kernow, about his need to visit York to see if drawings were available, all very time consuming and difficult when your trying to run a business.

I wish them well with this project which was announced a long time ago now, I worry that it's still a long way off though, a very long way.

[jrg1]

The Bachmann class 45 chassis would be a useful start for this project

[rembrow]

The Bachmann class 45 chassis would be a useful start for this project

The chassis will need to be shortened, which is not so easy with Bachmann cast chassis. I used the Hornby ex Lima Class 40 chassis, which has the newer 5 pole twin drive motor on one bogie, so the chassis is easier to shorten, being plastic. This works under a Silver Fox model of 10203 that I made some years ago on a Lima Class 40 chassis. The Silver Fox Bulleids were good models, John Hazleton originally modelled 10201/2 and 10203. Unfortunately these are no longer available from Silver Fox, I wonder if that's a consequence of the original Kernow announcement. I also remember that Kernow stated at the original launch, that they were announcing the 10201/2 models earlier than they intended as another manufacturer was interested, I wonder if that was Heljan, who at the time were working through the British prototype mainline diesel types.

[The Lurker]

Has someone been picking on them again? Is that why they're bullied?

[Jamiel]

This is probably a very stupid question, but what did they sound like?

I do ask it for a fairly good reason. I have a Silver Fox body, and having looked at my Bachmann Peaks as possible chassis donors have seen that that they are built like the proverbial brick out (sh*t) house, so sawing off 19mm from the chassis would be a monumental task, as Rembrow said.

I think his suggestion of the Hornby railroad Class 40 is a great idea, ad with the TTS sound versions not being that much more (I want to chip it anyway), is it worth using one with sound as a donor?

I do have a couple of Bachmann 40's, but one is a 21 pin, and the older other unchipped, old body style, so they may not be the best homes for a TTS sound chip and speaker.

 

So back to my original question, what did the Bullied diesels sound like, is anyone alive who could give an opinion, or could I just say 'Oh yes, they really did sound just like whistlers' and cross my fingers behind my back.

Jamie

Edited April 23, 2016 by Jamiel

[peterfgf]

This is probably a very stupid question, but what did they sound like?

 

I do ask it for a fairly good reason. I have a Silver Fox body, and having looked at my Bachmann Peaks as possible chassis donors have seen that that they are built like the proverbial brick out (sh*t) house, so sawing off 19mm from the chassis would be a monumental task, as Rembrow said.

 

I think his suggestion of the Hornby railroad Class 40 is a great idea, ad with the TTS sound versions not being that much more (I want to chip it anyway), is it worth using one with sound as a donor?

 

I do have a couple of Bachmann 40's, but one is a 21 pin, and the older other unchipped, old body style, so they may not be the best homes for a TTS sound chip and speaker.

 

So back to my original question, what did the Bullied diesels sound like, is anyone alive who could give an opinion, or could I just say 'Oh yes, they really did sound just like whistlers' and cross my fingers behind my back.

 

Jamie

You may not be too far off in sounds with using a Class 40.  The Bullied locomotives had English Electric type 16SVT Diesel engines whilst the latter Class 40 locomotives had English Electric 16SVT Mk.2 engines. I would therefore expect them to sound similar BUT the devil is in the detail: the type of turbocharger fitted and the layout of the exhaust system/silencer would have a large effect on the perceived sound.  The design of the exhaust system gives the Class 55 Deltics some of their distinctive sound.

Peterfgf

[Ian Hargrave]

This is probably a very stupid question, but what did they sound like?

 

I do ask it for a fairly good reason. I have a Silver Fox body, and having looked at my Bachmann Peaks as possible chassis donors have seen that that they are built like the proverbial brick out (sh*t) house, so sawing off 19mm from the chassis would be a monumental task, as Rembrow said.

 

I think his suggestion of the Hornby railroad Class 40 is a great idea, ad with the TTS sound versions not being that much more (I want to chip it anyway), is it worth using one with sound as a donor?

 

I do have a couple of Bachmann 40's, but one is a 21 pin, and the older other unchipped, old body style, so they may not be the best homes for a TTS sound chip and speaker.

 

So back to my original question, what did the Bullied diesels sound like, is anyone alive who could give an opinion, or could I just say 'Oh yes, they really did sound just like whistlers' and cross my fingers behind my back.

 

Jamie

Somewhat similar to a Class  40 but noisier and without the whistle as far as I can remember.The Class 40 diesel power block was made by English Electric and was a derivative of the one pioneered in both the twins and 10201/2/3.Thank you Jamie...yes the dinosaurs are still out there.They worked together with the' twins 'on the WCML from the mid 50's..even hauling The Royal Scot single handed.I have one distinct memory of one thundering and clattering into the old Wolverhampton High Level on a Euston -Birmingham -Wolverhampton train ( a regular diagram,Camden 1B for one or for one of the twins ) A quick turnaround and then straight back to Euston.Made a change from the Bushbury  (3B ) Jubilees.

 

A sobering thought...mmmmm...last man standing?

[250BOB]

Somewhat similar to a Class  40 but noisier and without the whistle as far as I can remember.The Class 40 diesel power block was made by English Electric and was a derivative of the one pioneered in both the twins and 10201/2/3.Thank you Jamie...yes the dinosaurs are still out there.They worked together with the' twins 'on the WCML from the mid 50's..even hauling The Royal Scot single handed.I have one distinct memory of one thundering and clattering into the old Wolverhampton High Level on a Euston -Birmingham -Wolverhampton train ( a regular diagram,Camden 1B for one or for one of the twins ) A quick turnaround and then straight back to Euston.Made a change from the Bushbury  (3B ) Jubilees.

 

A sobering thought...mmmmm...last man standing?

Ah Yes Ian......The Royal Scot it was for me too......Crewe Station with my Gran, when I was about 8 (born '48), there was a crescendo of noise arrived behind a wall........it was 10203 north bound.....what a noise. I remember asking the driver , who was stood in the doorway, if he could close the door so that I could read the number.

I haven't got a clue what they sounded like, just damn noisy, it was my first ever sighting of a diesel.!!!

 

She was a fantastic Gran too, regularly taking me on the bus to the station for a few hours mostly on a Saturday, I can blame her for encouraging me into the hobby.....bless her.

Bob

[Ian Hargrave]

Ah Yes Ian......The Royal Scot it was for me too......Crewe Station with my Gran, when I was about 8 (born '48), there was a crescendo of noise arrived behind a wall........it was 10203 north bound.....what a noise. I remember asking the driver , who was stood in the doorway, if he could close the door so that I could read the number.

I haven't got a clue what they sounded like, just damn noisy, it was my first ever sighting of a diesel.!!!

 

She was a fantastic Gran too, regularly taking me on the bus to the station for a few hours mostly on a Saturday, I can blame her for encouraging me into the hobby.....bless her.

Bob

Well there you have it ,Jamie....corroborative evidence. First step is to go down to Aldi or Lidl to buy a pair of cheap ear muffs then negotiate with Legomanbiffo to produce an approachable sound. Bob and I could be sound consultants.( Contact our agents Xtort & Kwidzin for fees,royalties& terms etc. )

I have an order lost in the mists of time for one of these.I have forgotten exactly which one .Speaking of the 'Age cannot wither them..' bit.( It is the weekend of WS 400 after all...so which play is it then ? ) Possible that I may get 'hands on' 'ere my lights go out for the last time and I face the cutters'torch ?

[No Decorum]

Those are fascinating recollections, gentlemen. I read somewhere that neither the LMS twins nor the first two Bulleids could haul the “Royal Scot” unaided but had to double head. However, 10203, with its engine uprated to 2,000 h.p., could.

 

I have one of these ordered. If Bachmann, or even Heljan, could be persuaded to make them for Kernow I’d order the other two most eagerly. Dapol’s Class 68 might convince me too, although Dapol’s relationship with Kernow is likely to be sour. Likewise, if Dave Jones’ 71 & 74 look good, I’d commit funds.

 

Sadly, Heljan seems to have drifted away from oddballs, otherwise the delay could have been seen as an open goal.

[Jamiel]

Thanks everyone. I have my eye on a couple of TTS Sound Railroad 40's on Ebay, so I think that will be the way to go. I suspect that whistle the 40's was the supercharger, so that might be a bit off, but I can live with that, especially as getting a Railroad 40 plus a DCC chip would cost the same as grabbing the TTS Sound one.

I love the oddball diesels, the Heljan Falcon and Kestrel I have, and are great runners, and I have nearly finished weathering my Bachmann 10001 (photos on my Ellery thread, linked below). I have a Silver Fox body for 10000/1 and a Bachmann 37 donor chassis as well, but I suspect with the quality of the Bachamnn model, it would be hard to get it to match up to that quality.

Maybe Kernow will complete the project, but given the time it is taking for the North British Warships (which I doubt I will be able to resist either), I would like to get on and make use of the Silver Fox body I have. I think that the Hornby Class 40 might also supply some other parts for the project, if the radiator grills have better detail, and also if I can harvest some of the windows to make an improvement on the very rounded moulded ones supplied. The weakest point with some of the Silver Fox kits I have seen is the lack of flush glazing, giving the face of the loco a too softer look.

I think it might also be worth having a look at when 10201-3 had the extra font door added, as I think a strip of brass detailed up, would give a lot more detail than is there on the body moulding, and bring it to life a bit.
I will also scrape off the hand rails and route indicators and replace them with brass etches/strips. I must get my copy of The Southern Way book done and look at when the various modifications were done.

I did make a Class 128 DMU using a Craftsman kit, and thought I would replace it when the Heljan one came out, but I like mine better. Perhaps it is the time I invested in making it my own, but something about the cab feels better to me. That said the underframe is cobbled together, and the side doors need redoing at some point, so it is no shining example of modelling, but it is my own version.

There are a few photos of the Bullied diesels at Birmingham New Street at:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br389.htm

Sorry if this is all a bit off topic from the planned Kernow model, but maybe it has sparked the thread into a little life, and it will be nice to have the option to upgrade from mine when the project is complete.

Many thanks for the replies, no matter how many photos you find of a prototype, you don't hear the sound. Films can also have the most convenient sound dubbed in the edit, I work in film and TV so know that unless it is one of the reliable rail video suppliers, shortcuts are very common. First hand reports are always the most reliable, so the replies here are really fascinating.

Jamie

Edited April 24, 2016 by Jamiel

[Judge Dread]

I too have built a couple of these Q kits, 10201 in black livery and 10202 in green. I used  Lima chassis' suitably shortened but they were not really successful. They ran at the two speeds you seem to get with those chassis' at that time, going and not going! I chipped 10202 to run on my present layout, Meopham but the speed control was still not so good. Then I was offered a Bachmann Peak at a price I could not refuse and so began the conversion from Hell.

The Lima chassis had a section cut out at the other end from the power bogie and the piece used to strengthen the joint, all was fairly straight forward. The Bachmann one was not so easy mainly caused by the central motor. After the chassis had had a central section taken out, I had to grind away to refit the motor. Most people I have told that I shorten the chassis just said "Oh you shorten the propeller shafts!". If only it had been that easy but I won the day and 10202 ran again, this time with all speed ranges. Step two was to chip this loco and step three was to fit a sound unit from Charlie. I selected a class 40 as I believed it had to be a close match. A class 37 was suggested but on the day, Charlie didn't have one in stock but he told me if I wanted a change he would have my chip "re-blown".

Incidentally, I am of an age were I saw all of the Bulleid diesels and one of the LMS variety on the same day but remembering what they sounded like? Not a chance! 

10202 will be running at the Darlington show on Sept 3rd, and although this is a two day show, this loco is too old for the Sunday when classes 66 & 92 will rule. 

Do come and introduce yourself.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Judge Dread

[railroadbill]

 

 

A sobering thought...mmmmm...last man standing?

No.

[Graham_Muz]

Progress on these models has broken cover at the London Festival of Model Railways with painted samples on display https://grahammuz.com/2017/03/25/kernow-mrc-bulleid-diesels-break-cover-along-with-gate-stock-livery-samples-Bachmann-birdcage-set-livery-sample-and-other-sr-model-news/

[No Decorum]

Progress on these models has broken cover at the London Festival of Model Railways with painted samples on display https://grahammuz.com/2017/03/25/kernow-mrc-bulleid-diesels-break-cover-along-with-gate-stock-livery-samples-Bachmann-birdcage-set-livery-sample-and-other-sr-model-news/

Thank you very much for the pictures on your website. Exciting and good to see them after so long.

[Jamiel]

I may be wrong, but as far as I know 10203 never received the modified end connecting doors as shown in the green model. The other two did when in BR green.

 

They can all be seen in their final state in the well known pictures of the five diesel prototypes (Bullied and LMS twins) outside Derby works in the 1960s.
 

10201 and 10202 were in lined BR green with modified connecting doors. They never received yellow panels at the ends.

10203 had BR lined green livery and then was the only one of the three to receive small yellow warning panels, but I have never seen any pictures of it with the modified doors.

I also think that once painted green all three had the BR late crest, they did have different sizes of the early crest when black with the silver band.

The doors also had 5P 5F on them, although I think these varied between the locos at different times (I based my model on a couple of specific pictures, and would have liked to miss this off as it was so fiddly to do).

The models do show the correct side paneling which was slightly different on 10203. I think the windows have been really well captured and also the metal doors and panels around the sole bar.

I am pleasantly surprised that the progress has moved so far forward on these models, as the D600 Warhsips seem to have taken a very long time, although Kernow did have issues with suppliers which is quite understandable.

I thought these would take a lot longer and dug out an old Silver Fox resin body and detailed that up last year. I don't mind as I had a lot of fun doing that.

Here are a couple of photos of it being made, I must take it out in the sun now and get some decent photos of the finished model.

 

One other thought, there are very few photos of the roofs of the Bullied diesels (that I have seen), but one of the long shots does seem to show exhaust ports similar to a Class 40 (in either the Modern Locomotive Illustrated or the Southern Special). I improvised a little on the roof detail extrapolating from the available shots, and also did the same for the under frame detail.

Hopefully others may be able to post better information.

Really good to see the models progressing.

Apologies if I sound like a rivet counter.

Jamie

Edited March 25, 2017 by Jamiel

[Clive Mortimore]

I may be wrong, but as far as I know 10203 never received the modified end connecting doors as shown in the green model. The other two did when in BR green.

 

They can all be seen in their final state in the well known pictures of the five diesel prototypes (Bullied and LMS twins) outside Derby works in the 1960s.

 

10201 and 10202 were in lined BR green with modified connecting doors. They never received yellow panels at the ends.

 

10203 had BR lined green livery and then was the only one of the three to receive small yellow warning panels, but I have never seen any pictures of it with the modified doors.

 

I also think that once painted green all three had the BR late crest, they did have different sizes of the early crest when black with the silver band.

 

The doors also had 5P 5F on them, although I think these varied between the locos at different times (I based my model on a couple of specific pictures, and would have liked to miss this off as it was so fiddly to do).

 

The models do show the correct side paneling which was slightly different on 10203. I think the windows have been really well captured and also the metal doors and panels around the sole bar.

 

I am pleasantly surprised that the progress has moved so far forward on these models, as the D600 Warhsips seem to have taken a very long time, although Kernow did have issues with suppliers which is quite understandable.

 

I thought these would take a lot longer and dug out an old Silver Fox resin body and detailed that up last year. I don't mind as I had a lot of fun doing that.

 

Here are a couple of photos of it being made, I must take it out in the sun now and get some decent photos of the finished model.

 

 

 

One other thought, there are very few photos of the roofs of the Bullied diesels (that I have seen), but one of the long shots does seem to show exhaust ports similar to a Class 40 (in either the Modern Locomotive Illustrated or the Southern Special). I improvised a little on the roof detail extrapolating from the available shots, and also did the same for the under frame detail.

 

Hopefully others may be able to post better information.

 

Really good to see the models progressing.

 

Apologies if I sound like a rivet counter.

 

Jamie

Hi Jamie

 

I agree about 10203 never having gangway doors. I am also concerned that they have used the earlier cycling lion totem on a green loco, as far as I am aware when painted green they only ever had the heraldic emblem and were always lined in black and orange.

 

I have a scratchbuilt 10203 so don't think I will be buying another one but I do hope they sort it out for those modellers who wish to buy one.

[Graham_Muz]

Please read the captions on the pictures as the image of black silver version has been incorrectly numbered as 10203 instead of 10201 and the emblem and the shade of green is also a known issue.

[Jamiel]

I had missed the captions, sorry.

This may be a useful link for the details of the livery, lining and 5P, 5F details. The 5P, 5F moved around and changed a little it seems each time they were painted.

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p148015493/h2E12AE0#h2e12ae0

This also gives some idea of roof details, although there are a couple of higher angle shots in the publications I mentioned.

Jamie

[JSpencer]

Great news.

 

I have 2 of these on order, 10201 in early black and green 10203. However when they were green, I don,t think they were running on SR metals, so have given thoughts to switching to a black one. Did they ever run on SR metals in BR green?

 

Second question, who is the manufacturer behind them please? (Bachmann ? DJM?)

[Graham_Muz]

Great news.

I have 2 of these on order, 10201 in early black and green 10203. However when they were green, I don,t think they were running on SR metals, so have given thoughts to switching to a black one. Did they ever run on SR metals in BR green?

Second question, who is the manufacturer behind them please? (Bachmann ? DJM?)

They were painted green whilst on the LMR and I don't believe off the top of my head that they came back to the SR after that time but someone is now bound to prove me wrong...

 

They are being produced by Kernow direct with an established factory in China so not via any other 3rd party.

[John M Upton]

Is there an anticipated delivery date on these please?