PGA, PGA, and/or PGA

[Satan's Goldfish]

Following on from the very succesful and informative Seacow, Dogfish, or both topic, my next quest for knowledge for a possible model concerns PGA hoppers. Currently preparing to move house so not planning on purchasing wagons yet, but hoping to have the correct knowledge for when I do.

 

Some background. I've always liked ARC 59s. Bought a Lima one once, even thought about getting a dozen bogie wagons to put behind it. Eventually decided that as much as I liked it, it didn't really fit with GEML stock, so it went. A few years ago travelling up the A11 back to Norwich (or was I stuck at the crossing gates at East Harling?) I happened to see the Mount Sorrel - Trowse stone train. Not one I've ever paid much attention to for some reason, but there it was. It was made up of a right mish-mash of different body style 'hand-me-down' PGAs and a single bogie hopper in the middle of the rake. Mr Beast has actually been kind enough to video it!

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=evldOQaw0Nc

 

'Interestingly', up to 2 bogie hoppers there, but definately only 1 when I saw it. I'd hazard a guess from the colour of the PGAs that they could mostly be ex-ARC, possibly a couple of Tarmac and Redland in there too.

 

On the modelling front my aimed for era is 85-99 so the video is too modern. One wagon on my hit list for modelling is back dating a Bachmann Autoballaster or 2 to being a Tiphook PIA/KPA but I had no real purpose for them:

 

http://www.ltsv.com/w_profile_054.php

 

Then adding all the elements together I decided an unbranded stone train of mostly PGAs with a couple of KPAs would be quite nice!

 

This is where gaps in research start to get confusing for me. There's a healthy selection of RTR PGAs from Lima and Hornby in different liveries, I've seen images before of debranded Yeoman hoppers so they would be easy to create but the ARC yellow would still be my primary colour of choice. Tentative ebay searches have shown 'Tilbury' red, 'Redland' green, and 2 different versions of 'Tarmac' liveries amongst others which also appeal to me, and Lima did a version in plain BR bauxite.

 

If I were to create a fictional stone train, from a quarry which was hiring in stock, post 1990, which PGAs could I use? I can't find a prototype for generic BR PGA, they seem to have been 'private owner' wagons from what I can tell. I recall seeing a rake of wagons in plain white at March in 1999/2000 but suspect they may be PAAs from my research so far. I suppose what I'd ideally like would be mostly debranded ARC, the odd debranded Yeoman, and some undebranded Redland/Tarmac/Tilbury/etc individual wagons (and a KPA in the middle!) But is this even close to something that could have vaguely actually happened?! (And is there any possible colours I've missed (plain debranded ECC?!))

 

Whilst rule 1 could be applied if I'm proper out of luck with this question, the additional question would then be which PGA liveries should I avoid as too modern?

 

Many thanks.

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi there,

 

For this topic the majority of research has already been done and published in the DEMU Members magazine - UPDate.

 

For this alone It would be worthwhile you spending the £21.00 and  becoming a member as you will be able to access the back issues of the magazine.

 

www.demu.org.uk

 

From memory it was spread over about 10 issues but not consecutive ones.

 

Thanks

[Satan's Goldfish]

I joined earlier this year, I'll have to look those up. Thanks!

[beast66606]

Some background. I've always liked ARC 59s. Bought a Lima one once, even thought about getting a dozen bogie wagons to put behind it. Eventually decided that as much as I liked it, it didn't really fit with GEML stock, so it went. A few years ago travelling up the A11 back to Norwich (or was I stuck at the crossing gates at East Harling?) I happened to see the Mount Sorrel - Trowse stone train. Not one I've ever paid much attention to for some reason, but there it was. It was made up of a right mish-mash of different body style 'hand-me-down' PGAs and a single bogie hopper in the middle of the rake. Mr Beast has actually been kind enough to video it!

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=evldOQaw0Nc

 

 

 

I wouldn't trust that video - made by an amateur 

 

I'm afraid my videos don't go back far enough for your time period.

[Scottish Modeller]

I joined earlier this year, I'll have to look those up. Thanks!

If you go onto the Forum you will find there is an Index for UPDate available.

 

Search using PGA and it brings up all the UPDate issues that had the part articles in them.

 

Once you have the issue numbers go back to the Website and click on DEMUWiki in the menu.

 

You will have to log into the Wiki site - same details as Forum access.

 

This will take you to the start point and you should find a link to the UPDate BAck Issue as PDF files.

 

Thanks

 

 

Go to the website - Click on the DEMU Wiki link

Edited August 2, 2015 by Scottish Modeller

[Satan's Goldfish]

I wouldn't trust that video - made by an amateur 

 

I'm afraid my videos don't go back far enough for your time period.

You've let me down Beast. How could you do that to me?

 

Thanks Scottish Modeller, very useful guidance. I get the feeling even if I do apply a dose of rule 1 then nobody will be too wise to it anyway.

[Glorious NSE]

I would agree with going and finding those articles, a real definitive work on the variety of types, there are a whole bundle of mixed up builds all with slightly different features!

PGA were never BR wagons (if BR had bought some, they wouldn't have had a private owner tops code!) Having said that, in the period you mention BR did buy a large number of used ones, converting them to ZFA 'Gunnel' ballast hoppers - when Railfreight was split up Mainline Freight put the Gunnels back to work on Mendip stone trains, so some did end up in BR use!

By the early 90s, ARC and Yeoman had pooled their stock so the remaining PGA fleets had been combined - given two liveries and a myriad of detail variations you could build a really interesting rake - might be worth considering? 

Some images from my site:

Don't have a date for this, but early 90s is my best guess - 60001 at West Ealing:


You'll note the CAIB stickers on all these - CAIB had inherited the Procor fleets - these are similar (but not identical) to the Hornby (channel solebar) tooling, they did this scheme when they were new but I don't think they have done it recently? Fox makes correct decals...



Smooth solebar one, the former Lima one has that feature - this would be doable with plastic work, new ladders, protection over the brake gear etc.



This one is closer to the Hornby one with the chassis, but will need a bit of plastic surgery...remove one ladder for example.



And again, base a kitbash on a Hornby one with a stretched top...painting out the ARC logo's had started but wasn't yet common...



A couple of shots from Stratford a few years later in 1998 - a couple of the Yeoman ones had recently got this paint scheme, which I believe recreates a 70s/80s original scheme...



And an ex ARC in the same train...I shot the same wagon again in 2006 and it didn't really change much from this till withdrawal...



 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Definately some fodder there to get the creative juices flowing. Raised sides for variation is a good idea. I should be able to create CAIB logo transfers quite easily in a couple of different sizes too. Thanks

[hmrspaul]

For most of your time period they retained their ownership liveries, even if worn and having vinyls for CAIB etc added.

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=pga

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=pha

 

Paul

[Satan's Goldfish]

Cheers Paul, keeps it colourful!

 

A little quick youtube research has thrown up a couple of gems to aid with this. First up from 1995, no PGAs but there's a couple of rakes of wagons here with individual PIA/KPA Tiphook hoppers thrown in:

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5-yviE1Qk9A

 

And secondly another far too modern vid of mostly debranded PGAs with the odd bogie hopper mixed, but interestingly for me one of the first wagons still has Redland on the side and there's a lafarge further back:

 

http://m.youtube.com/results?q=66142%20pga&sm=3

 

Who says modern freights are dull boring block workings of identical wagons eh? I'm starting to get a plan together for the make up of this train, but too much research (wasting time on youtube and DEMU update) is never a bad thing in the mean time!

[Glorious NSE]

And secondly another far too modern vid of mostly debranded PGAs with the odd bogie hopper mixed, but interestingly for me one of the first wagons still has Redland on the side and there's a lafarge further back:

LaFarge ended up with several types, most had received the LaFarge white livery but a few hadn't - the fleet is now owned by DB Schenker, hence the patched out LaFarge logo's and being mixed with other DBS owned fleets like those ex RMC bogie hoppers (DBS's HOA/IIA would also be viable alternatives.)

 

If you were doing a modern rake it does give you the option of using one or two of the RTR Bachmann JGA to bulk it out and doing a couple of kitbash/scratchbuilds without having to build an entire rake like you would for a rake of them in an older period. 

 

Lots of pics of all of those on my site too if you go that route - I think the ex LaFarge PGAs may be a more challenging mix of wagons (much more varied) to model than the Mendip ones although the Hornby tooling is closest to a Lafarge (ex Redland, ex ex Tarmac....) wagon from memory...

[eastwestdivide]

You were looking for colour scheme variations, and we've mentioned ARC/Yeoman/Redland/Tarmac/Tilbury, but there were also Tilcon PGAs, (up north, from Skipton), and a rake of yellow Tarmac ones around the NW, here at Warrington in about 1983:

 

Depending on the period, there were also the 82xx series of salt hoppers, some of which saw use mixed into the Redland trains of PGAs from Mountsorrel. This from 1982 ish. Don't know how long they lasted like this.

Edited August 4, 2015 by eastwestdivide

[black and decker boy]

. I should be able to create CAIB logo transfers quite easily in a couple of different sizes too. Thanks

I'm fairly sure that Fox Transfers do the CAIB logos and many of the hopper livery packs too

[lyneux]

They do. Here's some I did earlier using them.

 

To be honest, it's a really easy re-paint project (even for those not very skilled at this kind of thing).

 

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Why do I have an image in my head of the Yeoman hoppers like that but with a big grey rectangle over where it should say Yeoman, but I've not found a picture of PGA like that yet?! Did I imagine it?

 

They look good BTW Lyneux. Mix of Lima and Hornby?

[black and decker boy]

I found this

 

http://paul3715.tripod.com/exfoster.htm

 

And this

 

http://paul3715.tripod.com/exarc.htm

Edited August 4, 2015 by black and decker boy

[Satan's Goldfish]

I found thishttp://paul3715.tripod.com/exfoster.htm

And thishttp://paul3715.tripod.com/exarc.htm

The second one along in the group photo is what I can remember. Thanks!

[lyneux]

They look good BTW Lyneux. Mix of Lima and Hornby?

 

Yes, that's right. More details here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=43478

 

The ones in the de-branded state that you referred to are probably more appropriate for more recent operations (post 2000?). There really are many many variants of PGAs and I would echo Phil's comments about reading Phil Eames articles in DEMU Update.

 

I am working on an etched kit for some of the higher-sided ARC variants at the moment: PG013D and then PG013B. Several other build codes are possible after this. The project is slightly stalled at the moment but attached is a render of the latest CAD.

 

Guy

 

[pharrc20]

More of my photos on my Flickr page which includes all of the photos from my old Fotopic and Tripod websites plus some photos of Oakleigh Sidings that I uploaded onto Flickr for the thread on the same subject.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/34475484@N08/

Cheers Paul

[jonhall]

The Lima PGA was a bit of a dogs dinner with a mix of details from several different batches - i did have a little chart to highlight the easily fixed variants, but i'm on a poor connection for a few days and cannot find it at the moment.

 

jon

[pharrc20]

I have quite a few more photos of the PGAs when they were used on the Tunstead-Northwich traffic along with copious notes on which wagons were in the pool and what livery and branding they carried.

 

Cheers Paul

[lyneux]

The Lima PGA was a bit of a dogs dinner with a mix of details from several different batches - i did have a little chart to highlight the easily fixed variants, but i'm on a poor connection for a few days and cannot find it at the moment.

 

jon

 

I wouldn't say it is any more of a dogs dinner than the real thing (it's based on details of the PG006A and PG006B design codes).

 

I think what Jon means is that there is a lot of variety of details within these build codes: e.g. owners board, ladder types, platform types, brake equipment carried in different places, body cleat and rib patterns etc. Lima have picked-and-chosen from these details. However, all of these things are relatively easy to fix (e.g. remove owner board, add ladder, move distributer etc).

 

For me, the main problems with the Lima wagon that are difficult to correct are: the horrible bulkhead through the middle, the "false bottom" in the hoppers and the fact that it rides too high when you replace the pizza cutters with scale wheels (due to the pedestal suspension units being inaccurate).

 

Ok, so maybe it is a dogs dinner then!

 

The Hornby one is based on PG013E (a very specific build code and one used quite widely) but has much worse detailing. The horrible flimsy plastic ladders are crying out to be replaced and you definitely need some brake equipment to replace the "lump"! When you start looking at the sole-bar and hopper actuation equipment it looks very chunky too. The other PG013 sub-codes have dimensionally different bodies.

 

For all these reasons, I thought it best to start again and design an etched kit that can serve as the basis for these varieties.

 

Guy

[jonhall]

The Lima PGA was a bit of a dogs dinner with a mix of details from several different batches - i did have a little chart to highlight the easily fixed variants, but i'm on a poor connection for a few days and cannot find it at the moment.

 

jon

 

As promised

[Satan's Goldfish]

Kernow are bad people, they 'made' me order a couple of autoballasters on their current offer. More projects for the pile!

 

Edit: my pile of jobs seems be increasing rapidly. This rake will remain on the back burner for now, but the bogie hoppers were also trialled on mgr services so they may get slipped into that set for the time being.....unless I stumble over a bulk pga supply at a price too good to pass off!

Edited September 3, 2015 by Satan's Goldfish

[Satan's Goldfish]

For those interested in this topic, I think I've just had a moment with the PGA rake at the 12 minute mark........mmmmmmmmmm, redland amongst (what I think is) debranded ARC........

 

https://youtu.be/fLqAJXaoxYs