Smiffy2 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I don't know if I'm doing this properly or not, but anyway... I was in Jane's Trains (Tooting) last week and I saw a product called Ballast Magic. In essence it's a powdered water-based glue. The powder is very fine (think icing sugar). The method is to mix it, dry, with the ballast, coal or other scenic material, lay it to satisfaction and then spritz with plain water. The plus side is that it's much quicker and less messy than dribbling diluted glue from a pipette, and there is almost no movement of the ballast die to the addition of the fluids. I tried some on a simple wooden base and it worked well. Then I tried it with some 'coal' (produced by Bosch for HO and it - how shall I put it - doesn't quite cut the mustard, a high proportion of it being broken amber glass...) The ballasted track. Nothing has come loose. I tried mixing some 'coal'. The ratio of scenic to Magic is 7:1 or thereabouts. I was using a NPL accredited teaspoon... They are just mixed until amalgamated. The coal looks dusty as a result. These were the 'subjects' - one easy (the wagon) and one I didn't expect to work so well, a GBL Lord Nelson tender with decidedly odd coal heap. Coal was heaped on (it didn't work on the tender due to the inconvenient effects of gravity - but that should be easily sorted). Then I spritzed: It looks fine on the wagon (apart from some of the coal being amber) but not so good on the tender. It doesn't pile up well, but I'm going to have to get some decent coal and redo it anyway, I'll put up some pics of the set state if anyone's interested. The Magic is £9.50, not cheap, but I imagine someone will come out with a cheaper version soon. I like it. Usual disclaimers, just a satisfied customer, etc etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynJPearson Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Hi, Have you tried Cascamite? I remember being advised to use this years and years ago (probably some time in the late 80's!), but believe it is still available. Cheers, Martyn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy2 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 No. I know of it from woodworking, and I believe it has largely gone out of use (though still available from Axminster). I suspect that it may be more granular in texture. Perhaps what we have here is powdered cascamite, but it does work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2015 Hi, Have you tried Cascamite? I remember being advised to use this years and years ago (probably some time in the late 80's!), but believe it is still available. Cheers, Martyn I have tried Cascamite and some folk swear by it - I was clearly not doing it right as my inclination was to swear at the results. So I either got the water spray bit wrong (not 'misty' enough?) or I got the mix wrong (unlikely I think) or I just made made a mess of it (quite likely). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I picked up a 250ml pot of Cascamite from the local hardware emporium for just a couple of quid a while back... the kind of old-fashioned place that will sell you just 4 nails in a paper bag if you so desire. On opening the pot, it was perhaps not as fine as Dick describes... I remember using a mortar & pestle (or is it pestle & mortar?) on it to get a universal fine texture. Mixed with a decent quality Woodland Scenics granite ballast, it was spread and tidied. I always find garden-type sprays are not fine enough when wetting loose aggregate, so I always use an ultra fine perfume atomiser... the latest one is an empty bottle of some horrid-smelling liquid, courtesy of my 12 yr-old daughter. When dry it was totally matt in appearance and seemed to have worked quite well. Hasn't won me over to this method of ballasting, but could certainly be worth a try for those that worry about gumming stuff up. The cynic in me thinks that Ballast Magic is pretty much Cascamite rebottled and hiked in price by 500%... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDolfelin Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Thanks for that, Dick. Useful information. Be interesting to see how the tender works out in the long run. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy2 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 It's dried, and the 'coal' is shiny, but it was anyway. As to price, yes it's expensive, but on the other hand it's convenient... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Dread Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 When I moved into my present abode, I came from a coal heated house to a gas one. Result no coal for modelling, I went to my next door neighbour and asked for a "lump" of coal. He thought I was a little short of cash and offered a bucket full to tide me over. I explained why I wanted the single piece of coal and the large lump he gave me lasted many years. If you apply glue and sprinkle with coal dust to your tender top, then if it dries shiny, paint it over with mat varnish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Jewsons also stock Cascamite (or Polyvite) but there are conflicting instructions on how much to mix with water - one site says 2 parts water to one part cascamite, another the opposite and another 3,5 volume cascamite to 1 volume water. I guess the amount of soaking into a mixed ballast would need experimentation to get optimum results, but if effective, much cheaper than the Deluxe product. I have never used cascamite, but I have used the Deluxe dry ballast product as a trial on pointwork and it is perfect for that, compared to a standard PVA mess, but very expensive to use across a large layout. A pity they do not seem to do a discount for high volume. I think I will experiment with cascamite because if it can be made to give a decent result, then ballasting will become a much more pleasant experience! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynJPearson Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Opinion seems to be divided on this old post I found : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28008 One other thing I was looking at was whether you could get PVA in a powder form, that liquid could be added to in the same way. From the brief search I did it seems that it does exist but is more granular and not readily available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Hornby Humbrol seem to have stopped selling/making Extramite (their version of Cascamite) without explanation. One drawback does appear to be the very hard setting of the glue which amplifies track/baseboard reverberation. I wonder if this is also true of Deluxe Magic ballast? I only tested it on pointwork so do not know. Has anyone used it more widely? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Curiosity got the better of me and I dug out the test plank that I ballasted a while back with Cascamite. Colour's ok but a couple of cracks, very brittle and resonates like a cricket in a tin can when running stock over it... Hopefully this Deluxe Materials product is better but I'm not won over by the whole "powder" thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 For those that have mentioned Cascamite, it was good stuff up to about 25 or so years ago, then they went and changed the 'recipe' for some unknown reason, and found the overall finish for model railway ballast was not so good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 4, 2015 For those that have mentioned Cascamite, it was good stuff up to about 25 or so years ago, then they went and changed the 'recipe' for some unknown reason, and found the overall finish for model railway ballast was not so good. Probably to remove some chemical or component which had been found to cause some sort of health problem in 1 in every 5,000 laboratory mice (who had in any case never been taught the correct precautions to take when mixing the stuff). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted August 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 4, 2015 If Cascemite is too granular then an old rotary (not burr) electric coffee bean grinder is your friend. I use it for everything from grinding up real smokebox ash to scaling down lumps of coal to grinding Chinchilla dust for even finer results for road surfaces etc. I don't use it for coffee any longer though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Dread Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Opinion seems to be divided on this old post I found : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28008 One other thing I was looking at was whether you could get PVA in a powder form, that liquid could be added to in the same way. From the brief search I did it seems that it does exist but is more granular and not readily available. You have hit the nail on the head when you said "Opinion seems to be divided on this". P.V.A. is a "pressure" glue, apply it to two pieces of wood and leave it to dry. You have quite a strong bond but it can be broken without too much effort. However, if you had placed those two pieces of wood in a vice and applied pressure, you would have found a different bond which would most certainly involve damage to one or both pieces whilst attempting to separate them. Ballasting has never being easy and it never will be. I use ballast which is a scale smaller than the manufacturers sizing, apply to a small area and push into place with a paint brush. You will always get the odd "stone" staying on a sleeper top, I leave them there and remove later. When a large enough area has been covered, I gently spray with water to which a very small drop of washing up liquid has been mixed in. Then mix up your P.V.A. glue with water and another drop of washing up liquid. Apply very carefully, so as not to displace any loose ballast, with an eye dropper. If you find it's not going right, bubbles from too much washing up liquid, holes because of excessive dust or more ballast on sleepers, DO NOTHING, WALK AWAY AND LEAVE IT TO DRY. When dry, run a finger down the 4 foot to displace errant "stones" and use a screwdriver to clean excess glue stains on sleeper tops. Then vacuum to find unglued areas. Repair said areas and re-glue. Move on to next section and repeat above. If this wears you down, do something else and return the next day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 You have hit the nail on the head when you said "Opinion seems to be divided on this". P.V.A. is a "pressure" glue, apply it to two pieces of wood and leave it to dry. You have quite a strong bond but it can be broken without too much effort. However, if you had placed those two pieces of wood in a vice and applied pressure, you would have found a different bond which would most certainly involve damage to one or both pieces whilst attempting to separate them. Ballasting has never being easy and it never will be. I use ballast which is a scale smaller than the manufacturers sizing, apply to a small area and push into place with a paint brush. You will always get the odd "stone" staying on a sleeper top, I leave them there and remove later. When a large enough area has been covered, I gently spray with water to which a very small drop of washing up liquid has been mixed in. Then mix up your P.V.A. glue with water and another drop of washing up liquid. Apply very carefully, so as not to displace any loose ballast, with an eye dropper. If you find it's not going right, bubbles from too much washing up liquid, holes because of excessive dust or more ballast on sleepers, DO NOTHING, WALK AWAY AND LEAVE IT TO DRY. When dry, run a finger down the 4 foot to displace errant "stones" and use a screwdriver to clean excess glue stains on sleeper tops. Then vacuum to find unglued areas. Repair said areas and re-glue. Move on to next section and repeat above. If this wears you down, do something else and return the next day. If you are talking granite ballast, I strongly recommend that you add a step, which is to siv the ballast before laying, to remove as much dust as possible. This greatly aids adhesion by the PVA. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan downes Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Cascamite and Magic Ballast eh ? Well, Ive just bought both. The Magic Ballast arrived with the post lady, the Cascamite by bloody parcel force who just left a 'collect at the post office' ticket cos it's easier to slip through the letter box than it is to open the doors, fish it out of the back of the van, walk the long, winding, tiresome path to my front door with heavy parcel ( all 5 yards of path, all 5 ounces of parcel ) knock on the door, get me out of bed and deliver the parcel like every other carrier does AND, including Wells Fargo ! Bloody Parcel Force. Another government run farce. Should call it Parcel Farce. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Bloody Parcel Force. Another government run farce. Should call it Parcel Farce. Er, it's been 70% privately owned and run since 2013, and the other 30% is on sale any time now, as is the case with the "post lady". Does that help with your opinion Allan? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan downes Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Er, it's been 70% privately owned and run since 2013, and the other 30% is on sale any time now, as is the case with the "post lady". Does that help with your opinion Allan? Yeh, privately owned, you're right. My final demand gas bill was delivered by a guy in a Bentley this morning. Mind you, it was last year's gas bill... PS. Does that mean when it's 100% we won't get any mail at all ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 paint it over with mat varnish. That reminds me, my mat needs a new coat of varnish.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwrman Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 You can still get cascamite on ebay from several sellers here's just one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CASCAMITE-ONE-SHOT-POWDERED-RESIN-WOOD-GLUE-POLYMITE-EXTRAMITE-/110873740779?var=&hash=item19d09705eb:m:mOR6lozvpAhG1AqAx3Ks9pw Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan downes Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Magic Ballast. Absolute rubbish, Cascomite at an inflated price. Stick with diluted PVA at a 10th of the cost and, unlike Magic Ballast, it does actually stick ballast down rock solid. I used a small amount of Magic Ballast on a test section, might just as well have mixed the ballast with jam for what good it was so binned the rest and let PVA do what Magic Ballast hasn't got a hope in Hell of doing - to stick ballast down. Cheers. Allan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Magic Ballast. Absolute rubbish, Cascomite at an inflated price. Stick with diluted PVA at a 10th of the cost and, unlike Magic Ballast, it does actually stick ballast down rock solid. I used a small amount of Magic Ballast on a test section, might just as well have mixed the ballast with jam for what good it was so binned the rest and let PVA do what Magic Ballast hasn't got a hope in Hell of doing - to stick ballast down. Cheers. Allan Go on, tell us what your really think!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangdance Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I agree with Allan not that good, leaves a very sticky residue after it is dry and as Allan stated you can still rub the ballast away with out trying to hard, there Ballast Bond was not much better. For me I would use Johnson's Klear Multi Surface Wax. Try spraying the ballast with a some IPA first. Works a treat fro me. I have done a lot of test lately including PVA, WW models ballast glue, Mod Prodge (was a close 2nd - 1:3 glue to water ratio ), Nochs and woodlands ballast glues but found that the Klear works the best for me. Large bottle cost about £7 from Amazon. You can get it cheaper if you shop around) It goes a long way and has a lot of other uses. Even Andy Y on here recommends it. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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