Driving standards

[Derekstuart]

Apollo,

 

That's one hell of a car. It's hard for the yoof of today to understand there was once a time when a Rover occupied the place that bmw, merc or those other foreign imports do now. The P5 was the peak for Rover.

 

I know the P6 was well regarded and the SD1 was a good car, if rusty. I have had just about every Rover from the 200 (wedge shape) through to the towers years and their implosion. I still have my Tomcat (it's parked up somewhere or other). A lovely car, but nothing like a P5.

[coachmann]

I had the Rover 60 of 1954 with normal LH handbrake, then later on a 105 with stupid RH handbrake but overdrive and.... wow.....flashing indicators. The upright Rovers were indeed travelling armchairs, the workers rolls royce. 

Edited August 25, 2015 by coachmann

[alastairq]

Posting as someone who has done little else in their working lifetime, other than drive, instruct folk on how to pass their tests, and now, amongst other skills, coaching/mentoring/advising existing licence holders at all levels....and...if prior posts are to be believed, having an attitude which would not see me employed by the apparent operators of LGV training establishments.....I have to be honest, I have totally given up trying to help.....in other words...can no longer be bothered.

 

I know I can cope with everything that other road users try to do with me......and I have coached those nearest & dearest on the fine skills of avoiding the numbnutz...[that's plural of numbnutz]

 

So I don't bother...I just wander around in my decrepit, yet incredibly strong old 2x4...with it's huge lorry diesel engine.....and rather well endowed bash bars all over.

 

I don't always stop to allow folks out of Tescos.[i find road users as a whole are incredibly self-centred...nobody seems to have heard about the 'one-on-one' system]....because, you let one out, and 6 more then barge in front....leaving me there for 10 minutes! [regretting being polite. in the process].

 

I've tried the 'pulling over' bit to allow traffic to pass, if I'm in summat that doesn't make good progress by today's 'apparent' standards........only to find, instead of being at the front of a queue, I'm now at the back, going slower than when I was in front.  Now, I rarely bother ...if someone doesn't like the speed I'm moving at, they can overtake.....rarely if ever has there not been an opportunity to pass clearly.....at least, I've identified the spaces....not my problem if the driving abilities of those behind lack that particular skill...which to me is the nub of the matter...it isn't the slow[er] vehicle in front that's creating the hold-up....it's the lack of even reasonable driving ability of those immediately behind that creates the problem.

 

So now, my 'courtesy' is limited to genuinely aiding other drivers in a positive manner.........for example, if I spot a cyclist coming the other way.....if I can, I adopt a road position as close as I can get to the kerb or verge [road edge].....to allow more space for oncoming vehicles to pass the cyclist, and leave the required amount of room for a vulnerable road user, as per the Highway Code.....[in other words, if it were a parked car there, how far out into the oncoming carriageway would one need to move??}......if taken up, that aids the vehicle driver to pass safe & clear....and aids the cyclist by allowing overtaking vehicle to give them more room.

 

Trouble is, most drivers still overtake the cyclist with about a fag paper's thickness of spare room....because, they don't 'think', & they don't care!

 

So it's all rather pointless on my part.  

 

For me nowadays, if the road markings,signs, etc oblige others to give me a priority, then I rarely forfeit it. If I recognise no priority, I will aid others by allowing them out/past/through.....but try being the last vehicle, try bullying a  way through after I've been polite, and I'm liable to move slowly forwards just enough, to make the  exit an extremely tight one, requiring  a delicate maneuver on the other's part....all done quite correctly, of course....shouldn't have been trying to push and shove, eh?  I won't 'block' anyone's path...but, quite innocently, make my feelings felt, without actually creating an obstruction.  

 

Some years back, I had, as a daily driver, a Suzuki supercarry van.

 

This was an excellent machine [would have made a good railway room too]...being very narrow [3 foot 9 track]....yet built like a lorry in miniature.

 

But, like many of us, I seemed to attract the inevitable tailgaters. [even at 60 mph!]...I found, on occasions, I could 'frighten' [for want of a better description] these tailgaters, if they had a habit of driving too close, trying to intimidate me via the off side mirror.

 

In a town, what I would do is...once they were too close....to not move out very far, if at all, round parked vehicles. I knew they were overhanging my left side, width-wise....but by being so close [trying to out-glare me, no doubt] that they wouldn't be able to see the parked vehicles at all. [The suzuki was simply a box]. Being so narrow, I could quite easily keep a straight line.....and the tailgater would suddenly find themselves driving their much wider prides & joy into the corner of parked vans...often at speed...

 

Worked a treat, many times.....although few actually hit things...but the swerving about was a treat to watch in my mirrors.  Rarely did the same vehicle repeat the performance.

 

Best place to overtake [beverley by-pass?] is at the site of  fixed speed camera.

 

If one is confronted by someone who insist on pootling along at 48 mph....and one wants to do 60mph...then....if one can see ahead clearly enough, a speed camera site is a good spot to make an overtake. [i presume everyone on here can accelerate to 60 mph, and hold their vehicle there?/ CAn't you?].....the idea being based on what most folk seem to do with their speeds, when approaching a speed camera?

 

Yup, they lose speed..often quite dramatically.  [i have found by observation & experience that too many drivers actually don't know what the prevailing speed limit actually is.].....so what was once a 10-12 mph speed advantage to overtake with...becomes, often, a 20 mph one.....

 

If done neatly, it also is a treat to observe the other driver's face as one does it.....starting with smugness, thinking one has triggered the camera....followed by annoyance when they realise you haven't triggered the camera!

 

I admit...I have the habit now, of doing the exact opposite at cameras.....speeding up to the limit, instead of doing what most do....Get's rid of tailgaters too.....

 

Well, this is a grumpy old gits' thread, isn't it?

[Allegheny1600]

Dear Alistair,

I applaud your last post, you come across as a much nicer person who has struggled with multitudes of morons in the past and I feel that I can thoroughly empathise with you.

I hesitate to say this but previously you did give the impression of "Stuff you lot, the roads belond to me because of xyz".

I realise that you have more, varied and longer experience than me as I only passed my test in 2000, before this I was quite happy on two wheels since c.1980.

My point is that, were I to meet you on the road, I could know nothing of your skills (unless on a challenging stretch of road) and you would be likewise. However I try and do almost everything you describe above, hopefully that makes us both decent human beings?

Similarly one can never tell just who else is out there when one is driving, IF I were to behave like a cnut and there was an off duty traffic officer who saw everything I did, I could expect everything I got! Of course, some do this anyway in front of fully uniformed on duty Police!

Therefore, I always drive observing the law, the highway code and common sense as I possibly can. Yes, of course, I get many an idiot for whom these things mean nothing but hopefully, I'll still be driving, economically, legally and safely while they are broke, in jail, hospital or worse.

Cheers,

John.

[Arthur]

My goodness, there are some excellent drivers on here, I feel humbled to be sharing the same roadspace.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Arthur

[Kickstart]

Most cars don't get anywhere near their stated maximum HP in normal circumstances.

 

And of course, many makes record their engine hp on a bench where the rest of us record it at the wheel, though I dare say the eu has standardised that by now (praise be upon them).

 

The hp measurement method has been standardised (although there are quite a few standards) for many decades. For EU legislation they specify things as net power output, which is pretty much the crank figure.

 

Then people stick their car on a rolling road which adds a random fudge factor to the measured figure to guess at a crank figure   .

 

This is where it gets interesting when they came out with the (now obsolete) power limit for newly qualified motorcyclists and people could restrict their bikes to that level - when it was pretty much impossible to accurately measure the power to the required standard.

 

All the best

 

K

[Derekstuart]

Hello Kickstart

I think with the greatest of respect, that the comment "has been standardised (although there are quite a few standards)" says that it hasn't really been standardised at all. Though I appreciate that this is a debatable point.

 

The calculation for MPG (or litres per 100 kilometres for people who can't count past 10) is similarly a non-standard standardisation in terms of testing- the same applying to 0-60MPH (or 0-100KMH for people who can't count past 10). When you look at the different tricks they can pull to make their statistics fit. Even pulling off the alternator wires to reduce its resistance is one of the most bizarre.

[alastairq]

My goodness, there are some excellent drivers on here, I feel humbled to be sharing the same roadspace.

 

 

I dunno why?

 

There are no 'excellent' drivers.

 

One is only a good as one's last mistake...

 

The difference is, being able to recognise when one is making a mistake.....and knowing what to do about it.

 

Personally, I don't see myself as a 'good' driver.

 

What I do know is...largely because of what I [and my colleagues] do for a living, there is a very much heightened sense of awareness out on the roads [or, off road as well].

 

And I am not ashamed to take full advantage of that heightened awareness, for my own purposes.

 

As for being a 'safe' drive? Well, how does one quantify 'safe?'  Is it about never doing anything which heightens the risk levels for other road users?  [Difficult, as they do quite well at raising their own risk levels....never mind mine!]

 

Well, 'risk level' in itself isn't quantifiable...since much depends on the abilities of others too, to take advantage of the lower risk levels......but, can they? Do they?  

 

The Road Safety gang will quantify a safe drive, on the basis that a safe arrival was achieved.

 

But, I ask, how much contribution was made by other road users keeping that individual safe during their journey?  Compared, to the input towards achieving a safe outcome by that individual?

 

I used to think, a person could consider themselves to have achieved a 'safe' drive, if they could say to themselves, in all honesty, that no other road user had to do anything which dug us out of a bad driving hole we'd made for ourselves?

 

What is this 'good driver?'

 

By what criteria do we quantify 'good?'

 

Who is going to profer an expert opinion? Certainly not a Police Officer.....for they only report for an offence, based on the evidence they have collated. Is it the Magistrates Court? Where that Officer's evidence can have 'reasonable doubt' cast upon it?

 

The Court can defer to the 'expert'..namely, the DSA, for a decision on  the  evidence of a driver's actions....but, even the DSA can be argued with.

 

The Court will rely upon two descriptive words....''competent, careful'...!

 

If one drives in a competent, careful manner....at all times, one has complied with the Law.  Just don't forget, that is not in your own opinion [or anybody else's, for that matter].....

 

Personally, I am required to demonstrate a high standard of driving skill....[when necessary]....either to the DSA, or to our own assessors. I cannot go willy nilly acquiring fines & penalty points.

 

But, I don't consider myself to be a 'good' driver......that is for others to decide.

 

But I am past caring now.....I do what I do.....if others consider it 'good', then so be it...

[jjb1970]

There is a real issue in that car engines are set up to score well for the official EU emissions and fuel consumption figures and apply cycle busting techniques which means that real world figures are very often radically different to brochure figures. This has always been true but I've found that in some modern small eco cars in particular the differences can be huge. My wife had an Audi A1 diesel which on paper was about 78mpg combined (I may be wrong but it was certainly well north of 70) and in real life she was getting less than 50mpg combined. For comparison in a turbo petrol engine VW Golf that replaced the A1 she is getting about 55mpg real world combined which whilst well short of the official figure is an awful lot closer than the A1. I've noticed with a few small diesel eco models I've had as hire cars that the brochure mpg figures are wildly optimistic and I am not a fact driver. However, it is a part of life that once you set a standard then those standards drive behaviour and the car manufacturers are just playing the system that has been set up for them. The North American EPA figures are way more accurate than the European equivalents and seem to be much more representative of reality.

[Rugd1022]

Well they can all sod off when I waft along in my 3.5 litre V8 "Flying Armchair" !!!

 

Oil company shares go up and world temperatures and sea levels rise when she's out !!

 

DSCF5334resized.jpg

 

Brit15

 

One hopes that the drinks tray / picnic flap in the rear seat divider is well stocked with G&T, squire

 

I really miss my P5B Coupe, it was the same colour as your lovely saloon, Zircon Blue... almost BR blue to my biased eyes!

[Derekstuart]

A driving instructor who doesn't consider himself a good driver? The mind boggles.

[Baby Deltic]

Well, I have always learned from my mistakes, so much so, that I could always repeat them exactly as before.

[Horsetan]

There is a real issue in that car engines are set up to score well for the official EU emissions and fuel consumption figures and apply cycle busting techniques which means that real world figures are very often radically different to brochure figures. This has always been true but I've found that in some modern small eco cars in particular the differences can be huge. My wife had an Audi A1 diesel which on paper was about 78mpg combined (I may be wrong but it was certainly well north of 70) and in real life she was getting less than 50mpg combined. For comparison in a turbo petrol engine VW Golf that replaced the A1 she is getting about 55mpg real world combined which whilst well short of the official figure is an awful lot closer than the A1. I've noticed with a few small diesel eco models I've had as hire cars that the brochure mpg figures are wildly optimistic and I am not a fact driver. ....

It can work the other way as well. The 2003 Bora TDi S100 that I use was only supposed to be capable of 63mpg, but I've managed to squeeze more than 70 out of it on quite a few trips, give or take a 10% margin of error on the displayed figure.

[Baby Deltic]

One day I'll be able to afford an Opel Ascona 400.....

[stewartingram]

Summed up simply, as "I may be slow, but I'm in front!".

Gone are the days when it was always a Metro at the front....

 

Still, mine is nearly ready to put through its MoT, so it can be ME at the front soon...

 

Stewart

[Titan]

 

Then people stick their car on a rolling road which adds a random fudge factor to the measured figure to guess at a crank figure   .

 

Some rolling roads are motorised so that with the clutch disengaged they can back drive the transmission to the speed that the test was undertaken and measure the power required to do so. There may still be a bit of fudge factor involved as the transmission is not under load, but it is still far more accurate than guessing completely.

[Pugsley]

Gone are the days when it was always a Metro at the front....

Superseded by Micra's, which in turn seem to have been superseded by Qashquai's!

[APOLLO]

Back around 1984 I bought an Audi 100GL5E. Flying machine. Home to M6 was 1 mile, 8 miles down the M6 Wigan to Warrington, then 2 miles down the A49 dual carriageway to work. The distance to work was 11 miles exactly.

 

One hot mid summers night, returning home after standby duties at around 4am, just becoming light I decided to see how quick I could get home. Virtually no traffic about so I booted it to the floor. Speedo went to  over 120 on the M6, outside lane all the way, 90 down the slip to Wigan, 60+ on the dual c/ways (40 limit !!). I did the journey in under 7 minutes.

 

Parked up then the bloody twin cooling fans kicked in for 10 minutes annoying the neighbours !!!

 

Young and daft back then. Only did that once. 60 is fine for me these days.

 

That Audi was a great car - to drive. But was a nightmare for expensive repairs, always something going wrong. Replaced it with an Austin Montego 1.6 HL. Nowt went wrong with that over the 3 years I had it, but it took me half an hour to get home from work !!!!!

 

Bored with the Montego I bought another Audi (glutton for punishment !!) - A nice Audi 90 2.3 5 cylinder Auto. Another disaster maintenance wise. After that it was company cars for me. I never repeated the mad dash home, Lewis Hamilton I am not !!

 

Brit15

[newbryford]

A driving instructor who doesn't consider himself a good driver? The mind boggles.

 

Do as I say, don't do as I do........

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited August 25, 2015 by newbryford

[APOLLO]

One hopes that the drinks tray / picnic flap in the rear seat divider is well stocked with G&T, squire

 

I really miss my P5B Coupe, it was the same colour as your lovely saloon, Zircon Blue... almost BR blue to my biased eyes!

 

Actually my rover was ONCE Zircon Blue. It's now a Datsun blue (can't remember the name), just a touch darker in shade. A nicer colour in my opinion. Why Datsun blue may you ask - well, many years ago (!!!) I took it to a small body shop for some bodywork. Guy did the work but he used the wrong (Datsun) colour to respray the lower half. Anyway, he said he would do the whole car the same shade for no extra cost - so I agreed. he did a superb job, a full re spray for £400. This was about 15 years ago, and I've never had to touch it up since. He used 2 pack (yes it's wrong) but the result is a hard wearing super paint job.

 

No G&T I'm afraid. though the cantilevered drinks tray is in full working order (as is the "fully stocked" pull out tool tray in front).

 

Brit15

[newbryford]

Actually I have been in your position in the past. I was able to corner (legally) at a speed the tailgater was losing control at.

 

Very twisty A road soon lost him. 60mph and a car with rally suspension.

 

The tailgater nearly crashed into me in a village (guess doing 70), and was swerving all over the place trying to pass when it was not safe (tight bends in a village), Pulled out at the end of the village to find I had superior power and cornering.

 

 

 

Martin, I think know we've had this discussion before. Edit: A quick search of wheeltappers finds the answer. I won't post the link to protect the innocent............

 

Legal speed and safe speed aren't the same.

It's a speed LIMIT, not a speed TARGET.

 

My local village has a speed limit of 30mph. I am legally entitled to do 30mph. Would I do it when the school run is in full flow when I can't see around the next badly parked Chelsea Tractor? - no.

 

When I get on my local country lanes where legally I can do 60 mph - would I do 60 around the blind corner that I know me and my car can handle, but couldn't safely stop if there was a normal tractor in the way?  - no.

 

Past experience with a herd of cows around a blind corner was duly logged in the memory banks and has served me well since.

 

I always make good progress for the conditions, but I can assure you that I don't hold up people that are driving like t*ts. They're safer in front of me than behind.

 

I await your dashcam footage for your various experiences, especially the "outdragging".

 

One of my pet hates - there's a section of dual carriageway A road with a series of three roundabouts near me. I get really p*ssed off when I'm in the overtaking lane making my good progress (possibly up to 70mph if required) through this section of road, when the overtakee sees the L sign on the roof and then accelerates and outbrakes me into the next roundabout. I duly catch them up through the roundabout and try the overtake again on the next section and they do exactly the same. Yet I never seem to experience much of that behaviour when the roof sign isn't present - now they are t*ts.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited August 25, 2015 by newbryford

[newbryford]

Andy... a few people post on RMWeb and abide by the rules. No politics, religion etc etc, but they make me angry. Why? Because they're t*ts. No names, no pack drill. Not because they're doing something that breaks forum rules, but purely because of their attitude, whether it's superior, condescending, blah blah blah.

T*ts are good, but when people are t*ts, that's bad.

Someone tailgating you and goading you to go faster is a t*t. However, in their eyes, you're a t*t for not going faster.

 

Edit: Erm... I've now spent so long thinking about t*ts, I've kinda forgotten the point I was trying to make...

I'll shut up now.

 

That's one of the breast posts I've seen so far on this thread................................................

 

Cheers,

Mick

[skipepsi]

A thing that really annoys me is when I am following a learner, cars coming the other way try to force the learner to stop and let them pass the parked cars on their side of the road crossing the white lines to do so. That would be just churlish but expected behaviour from those with a superiority complex but then they look a little further (5yds) along the road and behind the learner is a fat bloke in a fat car and the space they think they have taken isn't there.

 

I am too distractible to ever consider myself a good driver but thanks to advice from Sgt Johnson of the Fife Constabulary 38 years ago I am still here and some people have made mistakes near me and I have avoided injuring them.  Mind you yesterday using a pedestrian crossing in the grounds of a hospital I nearly needed A&E because the driver decided he had waited long enough and drove off at speed as I walked across.... 

[newbryford]

A thing that really annoys me is when I am following a learner, cars coming the other way try to force the learner to stop and let them pass the parked cars on their side of the road crossing the white lines to do so. That would be just churlish but expected behaviour from those with a superiority complex but then they look a little further (5yds) along the road and behind the learner is a fat bloke in a fat car and the space they think they have taken isn't there.

 

I am too distractible to ever consider myself a good driver but thanks to advice from Sgt Johnson of the Fife Constabulary 38 years ago I am still here and some people have made mistakes near me and I have avoided injuring them.  Mind you yesterday using a pedestrian crossing in the grounds of a hospital I nearly needed A&E because the driver decided he had waited long enough and drove off at speed as I walked across.... 

 

The learner stopping can often be the learner themselves being uncertain of the space available. Especially with regard to the very novice driver.  Wherever possible and as soon as possible in their driving experience, I try and put them in as many "meet" situations as I can to show them that there are times when it is their priority and there is space and use it sensibly - be positive, but not aggressive - but then again, still be prepared for the t*t with a superiority complex.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[beast66606]

 

 Replaced it with an Austin Montego 1.6 HL. Nowt went wrong with that over the 3 years I had it, but it took me half an hour to get home from work !!!!!

 

 

I had an MG Montego - I once got home from Hemel Hempstead to the Wirral very quickly in it.