New DCC controller "ACE" from Sig-na Trak

[Mike Storey]

Hi all

 

I can't find any reference to this on the site, so have started a new thread.

 

You may have seen adverts from Sig-na Trak in the usual mags (I saw it in MR Summer issue, page 135) which includes the announcement of a brand new, low cost but high spec, DCC controller, designed in Britain and presumably made in Britain too (but from partially foreign components I would guess). It will also control DC layouts, although to what extent is not yet clear. It is still in development but sufficiently advanced for release later this year (their words) and samples will be available for inspection at the main shows this autumn and winter.

 

Their website where more (but not full) info is available is:  http://www.gfbdesigns.co.uk/

 

My interest was grabbed by the fact that the main controller is a colour, touch screen unit, very simple to use, and giving 3.5 amps of power, and also allows the connection of hand held controllers with proper turning knobs (which is what I prefer).

 

However, from screen grabs, it appeared that only 5 functions would be available and it was not clear whether CV read was available. I contacted them and received a reply today which confirms that there will be at least 12 functions initially (more later if demand is there) and that it does indeed read CV's. So, depending on the eventual price, this looks like a very strong contender to the mid-market systems.

 

Does anyone have any further info, from participating in Beta testing for example, which they are allowed to share at this stage?

 

Mike

 

Edited to improve website link.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Mike Storey

[Ron Ron Ron]

Their flyer is here......
 
http://rs.209492.mrsite.com/ACE_DCS2044_Flyer_V1_1.pdf

 

 

Wireless handsets and Smartphone/Tablet interfaces promised, so it looks like they are intending to keep up to date with the new technologies being offered by other DCC system manufacturers.  

 

The user interface is all.

Get that wrong with a cumbersome and clunky user experience and the product is dead in the water.

Hopefully they'll get it right on that front?

 

 

......It will also control DC layouts, although to what extent is not yet clear.

Let's hope it's proper DC power and not DC control via the dreaded "address 0".
Nobody should be promoting that feature these days.

Interesting that they say....
"A power module providing up to 8 independently- controlled DC outputs."
"A multi-channel relay module, for selection and routing of power to track sections (cab control)."

 

However, from screen grabs, it appeared that only 5 functions would be available

There appear to be only 5 function buttons on the optional handset.

 

The screen shots of the actual system console, show 4 (+ lights) function buttons (F0-F4?).

Hopefully they'll provide a scrolling facility for these buttons, to access the full range, without having to select another page.

 

....it was not clear whether CV read was available.

They say there will be a programming track output, therefore you'd expect that CV read should be included.

 

I contacted them and received a reply today which confirms that there will be at least 12 functions initially (more later if demand is there) and that it does indeed read CV's.

They need to explicitly state that it has CV read capability in their promo blurb.

12 functions, more "if demand is there" ???
That seems like a rather bizarre approach. The NMRA norm is currently F0-F28 (higher numbers are technically possible).
A few systems only have the capability for 20 functions, but 12 is rather backward looking IMHO.

 

So, depending on the eventual price, this looks like a very strong contender to the mid-market systems.

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

ACE will be up against some other new competition that's in the pipeline, such as the PIKO SmartControl and DCC Concepts' touted new system.

I suspect that ESU may have a new mid-priced offering in development too?

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[ZiderHead]

No mention of RailCom ... am I really the only one who wants to know what speed my loco is going? 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...My interest was grabbed by the fact that the main controller is a colour, touch screen unit, very simple to use, and giving 3.5 amps of power, and also allows the connection of hand held controllers with proper turning knobs (which is what I prefer)...

 

...The user interface is all. Get that wrong with a cumbersome and clunky user experience and the product is dead in the water...

 

 

I feel the design concept triumphs on the clunkiness with the handsets. Requires allocation of the decoder to be controlled by the handset from the base station operator. Better make sure the person on the base station is the 'fast controller'.

[Mike Storey]

Their flyer is here......

 

http://rs.209492.mrsite.com/ACE_DCS2044_Flyer_V1_1.pdf

 

 

Wireless handsets and Smartphone/Tablet interfaces promised, so it looks like they are intending to keep up to date with the new technologies being offered by other DCC system manufacturers.  

 

The user interface is all.

Get that wrong with a cumbersome and clunky user experience and the product is dead in the water.

Hopefully they'll get it right on that front?

 

 

Let's hope it's proper DC power and not DC control via the dreaded "address 0".

Nobody should be promoting that feature these days.

 

Interesting that they say....

"A power module providing up to 8 independently- controlled DC outputs."

"A multi-channel relay module, for selection and routing of power to track sections (cab control)."

 

 

There appear to be only 5 function buttons on the optional handset.

 

The screen shots of the actual system console, show 4 (+ lights) function buttons (F0-F4?).

Hopefully they'll provide a scrolling facility for these buttons, to access the full range, without having to select another page.

 

 

They say there will be a programming track output, therefore you'd expect that CV read should be included.

 

 

They need to explicitly state that it has CV read capability in their promo blurb.

 

12 functions, more "if demand is there" ???

That seems like a rather bizarre approach. The NMRA norm is currently F0-F28 (higher numbers are technically possible).

A few systems only have the capability for 20 functions, but 12 is rather backward looking IMHO.

 

 

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

ACE will be up against some other new competition that's in the pipeline, such as the PIKO SmartControl and DCC Concepts' touted new system.

I suspect that ESU may have a new mid-priced offering in development too?

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

.

 

They seem to welcome comment, even at this stage Ron. I suspect they could do with your experience and that of a few others on RMWeb, which far exceeds mine. A chap called Fraser is the contact.

 

Mike

[Mike Storey]

Not much info on the new DCC Concepts system but the Piko SmartControl system seems imminent (already somewhat late) and looks superb. However, it comes at a price! £400, although being discounted to £340 (Gaugemaster) on pre-orders by the looks of it. Still, very reasonable compared to a basic ECoS plus handheld. I know you generally gets what you pays for, and whilst the ACE would not appear to have the same functionality (particularly WiFi control) I wonder how their price will compare.

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....the Piko SmartControl system seems imminent (already somewhat late) and looks superb. However, it comes at a price! £400, although being discounted to £340 (Gaugemaster) on pre-orders by the looks of it.....

Mike, those Gaugemaster prices are a complete and total rip-off.

 

The SmartControl is available (on pre-order) for €331.99 (£236.00) from retailers with more realistic pricing. That's with free insured p&p (DHL).

 

The Gaugemaster price with their so called discount, is still £56.00 more than the m.r.p. of €399.99 (£284).

 

 

.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[davepallant]

It looks at if it is aimed at home users who might invite a couple of friends round every now and again rather than as a club layout or exhibition layout controller. There's going to be a bit if a bundle if everyone who needs to take over a train has to push in front of the main controller to assign a train to their handset. Alternatively you have one person in charge of the train assignment and the other features of running the layout. Where most DCC handsets win on club and exhibition layouts is that you can control almost all of the features of the layout from any handset including picking your own trains. 

 

The Piko Smartcontrol looks interesting in that it is back to the method of having the loco selection and control on each handset but looking at the mishmash of icons on the scrren it looks like they have tied themselves too closely to the Android icon array for the function keys and left far too little space for the small loco text and other displays. There are generally only a few functions you need for each loco and it would be nice to be able to pick out just the ones you need for each loco to free up some screen space.

 

An area where none of these DCC controllers seem to excel in is having multiple operators along a layout where trains are passed back and forth from one to another. A train is set up in a fiddle yard and sent out into an end to end layout and the operator the other end needs to be passed the train onto their controller. I dont mean shouting the number down the layout or using superhuman eyesight to read it from 30feet away. The operator the other end then takes over the train on their controller (the train does not stop and turn off all of its functions -  cough - NCE) and controls the train and brings it to a halt at the other end of the layout. An interesting way ofimplementing this would be to have a share button which brings up a list of other controllers to pass the train to! Very Facebook!

[GoingUnderground]

It looks at if it is aimed at home users who might invite a couple of friends round every now and again rather than as a club layout or exhibition layout controller. There's going to be a bit if a bundle if everyone who needs to take over a train has to push in front of the main controller to assign a train to their handset. Alternatively you have one person in charge of the train assignment and the other features of running the layout. Where most DCC handsets win on club and exhibition layouts is that you can control almost all of the features of the layout from any handset including picking your own trains. 

 

The Piko Smartcontrol looks interesting in that it is back to the method of having the loco selection and control on each handset but looking at the mishmash of icons on the scrren it looks like they have tied themselves too closely to the Android icon array for the function keys and left far too little space for the small loco text and other displays. There are generally only a few functions you need for each loco and it would be nice to be able to pick out just the ones you need for each loco to free up some screen space.

 

An area where none of these DCC controllers seem to excel in is having multiple operators along a layout where trains are passed back and forth from one to another. A train is set up in a fiddle yard and sent out into an end to end layout and the operator the other end needs to be passed the train onto their controller. I dont mean shouting the number down the layout or using superhuman eyesight to read it from 30feet away. The operator the other end then takes over the train on their controller (the train does not stop and turn off all of its functions -  cough - NCE) and controls the train and brings it to a halt at the other end of the layout. An interesting way ofimplementing this would be to have a share button which brings up a list of other controllers to pass the train to! Very Facebook!

There is no need for a share button. All it needs is the option to allow other operators to take control of a train already being controlled by someone else. The ESU ECoS has that option. You don't need a handover as such, just make the new operator aware that the loco is on its way so that they can switch their controller to it, (or you risk having a loco running under no operator's control), and for the original operator to relinquish control. 

 

If it's low cost, then IMHO it's unlikely yo be British made, our unit labour costs are too high compared to India or China.

Edited August 17, 2015 by GoingUnderground

[Adrian Wintle]

An area where none of these DCC controllers seem to excel in is having multiple operators along a layout where trains are passed back and forth from one to another. A train is set up in a fiddle yard and sent out into an end to end layout and the operator the other end needs to be passed the train onto their controller.

 

 

I think that is because most DCC systems are set up so that the user is 'driving the train' rather than 'operating the signal box', so handing off control is not as important. That being said, taking control of a train with a different handset is relatively trivial on my Lenz system, with an easy mechanism for ensuring that the new handheld matches the existing speed/direction. I gather it is pretty simple for a DIgitrax system as well.

 

Adrian

[Gilloverland]

I think the Z21 / z21 systems are easiest for handing trains over...

[davepallant]

I think that is because most DCC systems are set up so that the user is 'driving the train' rather than 'operating the signal box', so handing off control is not as important. That being said, taking control of a train with a different handset is relatively trivial on my Lenz system, with an easy mechanism for ensuring that the new handheld matches the existing speed/direction. I gather it is pretty simple for a DIgitrax system as well.

 

Adrian

 

I agree that the Lenz is easy to take over another loco if you know the loco address. My point was that that involves passing the number down the layout in some way - shouting, piece of paper attached to a wood block, radio headsets, superhuman eyesight - all of which I have seen in use and some of which I've had to use at shows. All these systems are simple as long as you type the same number in on one controller that is on the sending controller. My point is why not be able to pass the address electronically to the operator where it is going.

 

 

I think the Z21 / z21 systems are easiest for handing trains over...

 

Presumably on the Z21 you select the loco from the library and start driving it that way. The Z21 does look to be a nice graphical interface with the right size for each item and just a small function panel where it looks like you can select the functions that show. Not sure that little pictures would help us when we had to choose between 4 blue 86s and 4 blue 85s....

 

 

Dave

[Nigelcliffe]

......All these systems are simple as long as you type the same number in on one controller that is on the sending controller. My point is why not be able to pass the address electronically to the operator where it is going.

 

It is possible, it's a feature on LocoNet based systems (Digitrax, Uhlenbrock) for over 15 years. But hardly anyone uses it. The Fred throttle (available as DIY design, as a kit, or commercially from Uhlenbrock) uses the method - first throttle on the system "dispatches" the loco, the next picks up the dispatched loco.

 

Downside, only one loco on the Dispatch location at any moment in time, so could go horribly wrong if there were two handovers in different areas at about the same time.  Can work very well if the layout is setup for it - I've operated a layout which used it.

 

 

I'm a fan of the Fred throttle, its about as simple as a throttle can possibly get.

- Nigel

[Adrian Wintle]

I agree that the Lenz is easy to take over another loco if you know the loco address. My point was that that involves passing the number down the layout in some way - shouting, piece of paper attached to a wood block, radio headsets, superhuman eyesight - all of which I have seen in use and some of which I've had to use at shows. All these systems are simple as long as you type the same number in on one controller that is on the sending controller. My point is why not be able to pass the address electronically to the operator where it is going.

 

 

Well, if you are 'operating' the railway you should know what the next sceduled train is. If you are acting as signallers, you can get the yard to set up the trains so that they are all consists (even if only one loco) using sequential consist numbers. That way you just grab the next number and have no need to know what it is.

 

Adrian

[Mike Storey]

An update from SigNa-Trak plus I have added the original answers to my queries, below. At £142 plus £19 per handset, this is looking like a good competitor and is British(-ish)!

 

Dear Mike

 

Thank you for your enquiry regarding my ACE controller.

 

It will have twelve function keys, plus F0/lights. F5-8 and F9-12 will be accessible via a "MORE" key which is not shown on the screen shot in the advert as the photograph was taken at an early development stage. I may subsequently increase the number of functions further, depending upon customer feedback. The controller's software will be "user upgradable" via an optional USB interface to your PC.

 

Full CV access will be available - i.e. direct/paged/register read and write in service mode (i.e. via programming track) and operations mode (i.e. on main track).

 

Some controllers are not very good at detecting the acknowledgement pulse during CV reading (and some, as you have obviously noticed, don't bother at all!). The ACE overcomes this by having a dedicated output circuit for the programming track which is tailored for the additional sensitivity required for reliable CV read back.

 

Price of the ACE should be announced in a couple of weeks. I will contact you again when I have further information.

 

Best regards

 

Fraser Black

GFB Designs

 

 

Hi Mike

 

I can now advise you that the price of the ACE controller will be £142 and the DRIVER handset will retail at £19 (all my prices include VAT).

 

Planned optional "add-on" modules include (in order of development priority):-

 

USB interface (for "firmware" upgrading, and layout control, from a personal computer)

Radio interface for the ACE, and radio module for the DRIVER to give wireless handsets

Memory expansion for route setting and storage

WiFi interface to enable use of "smart 'phones" for handsets

COMMANDER handset which will be fully-featured (i.e. address setting, accessory control, optional wireless etc.)

LocoNet interface (subject to obtaining a licencing agreement from Digitrax)

XpressNet interface

TROJAN add-on booster (5A capability)

Track occupancy detection modules/interface

 

The above information is all subject to change but basically represents my "wish" list for a truly expandable layout control system. I will keep you informed regarding progress and - as I believe I mentioned - I will be at the Warley exhibition on 28/29 November (stand C029).

 

Best regards

 

Fraser

 

 

I have suggested that a radio link and USB interface need to be urgent upgrade priorities, but if you have other suggestions, please contact him on gfbdesigns05@btinternet.com .

 

Mike

 

[traction]

I thought I'd put this here so those who haven't seen it can.

It is on the GFB designs web site, but thought it would be easier to see and comment here.

I think it looks like a very nice controller when it's available, which should be mid Jan 2016

 

The CV programming side looks to be really easy to use along with the nice big touch screen to access all the functions.

I have no connection with the company just an interested person in another DCC controller.

 

ACE_DCS2044_Brochure_V2_1.pdf

 

What do others think?

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited December 13, 2015 by traction

[amdaley]

Had a quick look & it seems to have plenty of features at a good price.

It would be great if the handsets were wireless.

I hope the software is fit for the 21st century & not the 20th 

[Blue Max]

This is a duplicate thread, there is already a thread running started by Mike Storey on the 11th August.

[traction]

This is a duplicate thread, there is already a thread running started by Mike Storey on the 11th August.

 

Couldn't find it!

 

Maybe the mods can merge the two.

[Mike Storey]

Thanks for posting the new brochure. I have been in email contact with the developer for quite a long time now, as indeed have others, in commenting on his proposals, and he continues to under-promise and over-deliver. This now looks exceptional for the price. I have a few queries for him on which I shall give feedback when he responds.

 

I particularly like the screen which displays all 28 functions, so you don't have to keep switching, other than back to the home screen to actually drive the loco. I need to ask him whether one can access that screen when operating on the handset, which has only 5 functions. I will also try to ascertain whether we are talking weeks, months or years for the release date!

 

This could be THE ONE! (although I really want a ZTC, when I can afford it!)

[traction]

Mike,

 

From what I can gather it will mid January release.

As it's a new system, ask if he could do a different type of driver cab at a later date, which could have a speed control/separate brake control like the Zephyr might be a way to get almost what you want.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited December 13, 2015 by traction

[Trip]

It looks great for the price. My questions would be:

 

1. is it possible (or will it be) to upgrade to more than 3.5A?

2. is it possible (or will it be) to connect to a computer for use with jmri/RR&Co etc? It does mention a USB interface but only for firmware upgrades.

 

Edit: I've now seen the email from the developer upthread. When it gets a Loconet interface I might well buy one.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Trip

[Mike Storey]

Further news from the developer:

 

Hi Mike

 

Many thanks for your continued support via RM Web.

 

The DRIVER handset, by definition, is limited in its capabilities as it is intended to be a very low-cost "add on". It is limited to five functions BUT I'm considering an option whereby each handset's functions can be re-mapped to any of the possible 29.

 

The DRIVER is supplied with a 2m cable but this can be increased to over 10m.

 

Watch out for the radio module, for the DRIVER - wireless operation is not far away!

 

I'm aiming for mid January release for the ACE.

 

Regards

 

Fraser

[Nigelcliffe]

......

2. is it possible (or will it be) to connect to a computer for use with jmri/RR&Co etc? It does mention a USB interface but only for firmware upgrades.

 

Edit: I've now seen the email from the developer upthread. .................

 

Assuming the USB interface permits it, and the protocol is documented, and someone offers their device for guinea-pig testing, then I expect JMRI will add it quite quickly.  Having spoken to the system developer some years ago on matters around DCC, I would expect he is able to produce a well specified and documented interface.    

 

RR&Co would be down to it's owner seeing it as a profitable option. 

 

 

- Nigel

[Mike Storey]

Latest news from Fraser (the developer);

 

Dear Mike

 

Happy New Year!

 

I'm sorry that I haven't been in touch for a while.

 

You may have noticed from our web site that the ACE is scheduled for release on 20th January. The next two weeks

are being occupied by final testing and compilation of the user manual.

 

As promised, we are holding the discounted price of £142 for any orders placed up to 20/01/16.

 

Thank you for your continued patience and interest in the product.

 

Best regards

 

Fraser.