Farish AC Electric Loco

[mikeharvey22]

When this was a hot topic last August (2014) it resulted in the Pendolino Kickstarter which became the RevolutioN Trains Pendolino. Let us hope we find just the right model for the next WCML electric. I would be happy with any of 81 - 90 and 92, but preference is for a 92 for the last 20 years, and Class 81 for the early days. And a Class 304 for the EMU element

[Roy L S]

It will be interesting indeed to find out what RevolutioN's next proposed models are, be they electrics or otherwise.

 

If the Pendolino's sales are sufficiently buoyant may it support the business case for a future electric in which case the smart money would be on an upgraded 90 from Farish I would say.

 

I do though have a nagging concern that the Pendo (which promises to be of ground-breaking quality) will be a "Rule 1" purchase for a good number who appreciate a quality model rather that specifically being WCML modellers.

 

Time will tell.

 

Roy

[alibuchan]

I do though have a nagging concern that the Pendo (which promises to be of ground-breaking quality) will be a "Rule 1" purchase for a good number who appreciate a quality model rather that specifically being WCML modellers.

 Roy

  

 

I do think that this is a very valid concern, which could have clouded the judgement on overhead electrics. I include myself on that too.

 

Personally I think The Class 86, 87, 90, 91 and 92 will be better sellers as they covered a larger era.

 

I'd prefer Dapol to do a Class 90 because that would raise the chances of getting matching rolling stock when it comes to Mk3s.

 

Dapol have previously done extra runs of models, if they can see an easy sell to match bits that farish bring out. They would be very silly not to have to artwork done as soon as farish announce a 90 to cover the Anglia routes in the same liveries as the 90's are announced in. And whilst they may not get the timing spot on they could get it at about the same time.

 

 

preference is for a 92 for the last 20 years

On a purely selfish mode I hope they don't bring out a 92 too soon, as I have just paid the last instalment of my CJM 92! With 2 already I would have to give a 3rd some very strong thoughts as to wether I was just buying it for the sake of having it or if I really needed it.

 

I do hope that farish will take a gamble on the 90 as I would like a couple, but I don't see it happening for a while. I would also like Dapol to do a run of electric blue 86's so I could have Les Ross running on my charter rake, without having to do a whole repaint.

 

Alistair

[Mike at C&M]

As the person who commissioned the BR Blue Class 86s from Dapol, there are a few comments that I feel I should make.

 

The production run was 240 models, 120 of "City of Carlisle" and 120 of "Glenfiddich". The fact that we were able to do two different numbers on the same bodyshell, saw many people buy one of each loco, and a few customers bought more than 2 with a view to renumbering them. At best, we had 150 customers for the locos.

 

The models arrived with us at the beginning of May 2010, with the last one selling in October 2014 - 4 1/2 years to sell a shorter than usual production run of what is perceived to be a popular livery.

 

After a couple of years, we reduced the price due to slow sales, so it is inappropriate to state that all of our limited edition was sold at full price.

 

I did enquire of the then Dapol development manager about the possibility of doing me a Class 87 body on the Class 86 chassis, and was given an approximate figure for tooling costs for what would have been an exclusive model for us. I am so glad that I didn't take him up on the offer.

 

I certainly have no intention of looking at further a.c. electric based models, until there is a marked upturn in demand. To use the 'chicken and egg' analogy, would the proposed expansion of the Dapol catenary system act as a catalyst to such demand.

[njee20]

I think it's a factor, but I suspect the overriding is issue is that folks don't have/want wires on their layouts and can't adequately suspend belief to buy electrics.

 

I'll take a punt on a Colas 56 or a Hanson 59 (well I would!) without knowing if it's wholly prototypical, but I doubt many would casually buy an electric. It's a shame.

[justin1985]

As others have said, its a fair bet that a Farish 90 will follow two or three years after a OO one. An 85 would be a very outside bet - single line operation, limited liveries, all gone before any chance of open access or private operators. (Tbh seemed an odd choice in OO - setting up electrics to fail?)

 

Personally I have a good collection of Dapol 86s, one Farish 90 undergoing a heavy detailing project, and contemplating an 87 as 87101 in Railfreight. Dapol do seem to have a very odd approach to liveries, with a full batch of the unique NSE livery 86 (which I did buy) and multiple Freightliner locos, for example, but only one batch in Intercity Swallow and none in Executive - both of which I'd buy. It always strikes me they shoot themselves in the foot with any liveries in short succession, whereas Farish's drip feed encourages us to buy locos that only marginally appeal to us, as they're all there is at the time.

 

It also seems a bit of a red herring to focus on common parts between locos, when it seems that with design and manufacturing done by arms length (or entirely external in the case of Dapol) companies, that no longer seems to be the approach taken. Each design is a distinct product, and only rarely are parts reused (e.g. class 47/7 tanks). I doubt we'll see a new 87 even if there is a new 90, and I really don't see a partial job being done on the 91 - they've done one round of chassis upgrade on it, if there's a new one, it'll be all or nothing.

 

I'd be surprised if a 92 doesn't appear in the next few years though. Simply because so little is left!

[Mike at C&M]

One thing to consider about liveries not being done is what is available in the tooling.

 

When the 86 was first announced at a Dapol trade open day, I noticed while I was still down at Chirk that a BR Blue was not listed, and mentioned to Dave Jones there and then that I would be interested in doing this version as an exclusive model.

 

It was necessary to include such items as sealed beam headcodes, flexicoil suspension and Brecknell-Willis pantographs, as these are what were being tooled. To vary from this would have incurred thousands of pounds of expense to set up something that would have had a very limited benefit.

 

As anyone interested in the prototype will be aware, locomotives do evolve, often with some major differences, through their careers.

[Padishar Creel]

Hallo,

 

(cannot get the reply quoting post to work on the machine I'm using)

 

Regarding a version of 86259 "Les Ross" a repaint would be the most accurate. Any donor loco would need the TDM cables represented on the cabs and Hattons have suitable models for less than GBP70. Electric Blue versions E31** would require the tooling for City of Carlisle/Glenfiddich but then the bogie frames would not necessarily be accurate.

 

 

es grüßt

pc

[Mike at C&M]

City of Carlisle/Glenfiddich have flexicoil suspension, sealed beam headcode panels and a Brecknell/Willis pantograph, so a straight re-paint of these is no better than repainting one of the other variants available.

 

I do know of some who have modelled some of the changes needed to convert back to the loco as a E31XX loco.

 

However, by co-incidence, "City of Carlisle" under its E31XX guise (E3173, subject to confirmation) was the loco used to test flexicoil bogies.

[ash39]

Lengthy post, but I've got a case to make! I'd really like to see (or perhaps not, as it would cost me a fortune...) a new high spec Class 91 with mk4's in N, however I feel a kickstarter type project might be the only way to get one to market. Whilst a OO model is being campaigned for on another part of the forum, I feel N would be a more suitable market for this model, owing to the length of the train. Even a modest sized N layout could take a 2x9 formation but not many OO ones could.

 

Tooling wise, would it be cost much more than the Pendolino? Loco, DVT and 2 major coach types. Depends if you wanted to cover the 91/0 and 91/1 differences. I'm not sure how easily tooling could be adapted to cater for these.

 

Liveries are now plentiful, having been steady for the first couple of decades of their lives. There have now been two major rebrands in the past five years, not to mention the one-offs such as 91107, 91110 etc which would surely be popular models. Modellers would perhaps buy one full set of coaches and then 2/3 locos which would help recover the tooling costs. I'd personally probably buy 2/3 sets and god knows how many locos, dread to think!

 

The 91 is starting to gain quite a following, probably partially down to the special liveries creating interest, and partially the fact that they are due to be replaced (from frontline ECML duties at least) in the next few years. The Class 91 group on Facebook has grown massively from around 500 members to 1200 in the past year alone.

 

Would go well with Dapol's HST too, surely they'll be looking at releasing a Virgin East Coast one in the near future...

[njee20]

The ECML is a far less popular route to model than the WCML I'd say, limiting the appeal significantly. Arguably chicken and egg. But I'd suggest the fact that the only 91 available is a bit dated isn't the barrier there. They seem to be perpetually being sold off dirt cheap.

[ThaneofFife]

i dont know whether to read anything from farish deleting the 87 from the website after announcing the executive livery 87005 and br blue livery 87002.

 

i wonder if the reason was lack of slots, cold feet on AC locos in N, pulled the products after deciding to just go for a retool or what.............

 

i was looking forward to seeing 87005 City of London in the smart exec livery even though the model has no working lights.

it would be good to see a new 87 with the distintive markers and centre headlight pre the high intensity headlight era.

[ThaneofFife]

my point exactly about scale length trains suiting N better than 00 for the average householder...... space wise

[scruff]

I don't know if it is just me.. But is the Farish 87 a little small??

 

Cheers

 

Mark

[ThaneofFife]

think its a visual illusion due to the design of the bogies.  a side view reveals a fair bit of daylight under the bogies at both inner ends and i think that can make it look a bit stubby but lengthwise i think its probably ok. or maybe the illusion is cause by the same affliction of the limby 00 model.....bogies that are on the short side.

[ash39]

The ECML is a far less popular route to model than the WCML I'd say, limiting the appeal significantly. Arguably chicken and egg. But I'd suggest the fact that the only 91 available is a bit dated isn't the barrier there. They seem to be perpetually being sold off dirt cheap.

 

Valid point, I think you can get a 91 and DVT for about £50 from the bigger stores, but only in GNER livery. None of the more recent liveries have been produced - probably because they don't think it will sell, based on the quality of the model.

 

You just can't sit the Farish 91 next to a modern model like the Farish 37/4 or a Dapol 86, it's essentially a toy and I think you've called it right with the chicken and egg. I'm sure a retooled version would sell, perhaps not as well as an 87 or 90, but with the mk4's done at the same time (3 new toolings, maybe £275 RRP for a full 9+DVT set?), maybe a case could be made for it. 

[ThaneofFife]

maybe Jason over at Rapido already has his designs on one of the above ideas for his next model?

[scruff]

Maybe someone should PM Jason and ask for his thoughts...

 

Cheers

Mark

[justin1985]

The ECML might be less popular than the WCML, but modellers of specific lines are significantly less common than those following "rule 1" - or at least willing to make exceptions for models like the Pendolino, Brighton Belle etc!

 

N is undoubtedly a better gauge to model a full IC225 set, but the OO market is obviously much bigger, and many would surely be happy to buy a four car train pack or similar in OO. Arguably the Hornby train set 91 is significantly better than the Farish one though.

 

I suspect the real commercial question is whether a greater proportion of the (smaller total number) of N modellers would be willing to buy a full length (or close to) train pack? Given that the tooling for the 225 set would involve significantly fewer coach sides etc, but presumably a good proportion of N modellers would buy a long train, the margins would be realtively healthy (in comparison to other projects of this scale).

 

Perhaps the Pendolino team could recap what the distribution of train pack sizes ordered was in the end? How many did order a scale length train?

 

In any case, I'd probably buy a 225 whereas I didnt go for the Pendolino

 

Justin

[johnlambert]

Perhaps the Pendolino team could recap what the distribution of train pack sizes ordered was in the end? How many did order a scale length train?

 

From memory of discussions about the N gauge Pendolino I'm sure the majority of orders were for 11 car sets, followed by 9 car sets and relatively few sales of the 5 car set.

[ash39]

The ECML might be less popular than the WCML, but modellers of specific lines are significantly less common than those following "rule 1" - or at least willing to make exceptions for models like the Pendolino, Brighton Belle etc!

 

N is undoubtedly a better gauge to model a full IC225 set, but the OO market is obviously much bigger, and many would surely be happy to buy a four car train pack or similar in OO. Arguably the Hornby train set 91 is significantly better than the Farish one though.

 

I suspect the real commercial question is whether a greater proportion of the (smaller total number) of N modellers would be willing to buy a full length (or close to) train pack? Given that the tooling for the 225 set would involve significantly fewer coach sides etc, but presumably a good proportion of N modellers would buy a long train, the margins would be realtively healthy (in comparison to other projects of this scale).

 

Perhaps the Pendolino team could recap what the distribution of train pack sizes ordered was in the end? How many did order a scale length train?

 

In any case, I'd probably buy a 225 whereas I didnt go for the Pendolino

 

Justin

 

I backed the Pendolino project as a kickstarter, but I haven't ordered one from Rapido. It was a bit of a 'rule 1' for me, and I was keen to support crowd funding as a concept as opposed to really wanting or needing a Pendo. I was surprised that most people went for the 11-car, but that bodes well for a potential 225 model, as a full 2+9 set would be slightly shorter than a 11-car 390.

 

Obviously the margins for success and failure on models are narrow, so to increase your chances you'd have to look at every possible avenue to maximise returns. Cleverly structured and nicely packaged packs which encourage people to buy full sets, 'celebrity' locos in special complementary packaging (aiming at collectors), pre-wiring for lighting as a separate purchase (Dapol light bar style). 

[woodenhead]

The problem you are going to have with an IC225 set is multiple liveries which actually suits a main range release than a Rapido or commission route.

 

The Pendolino is pretty much one livery (though their are specials) with a single company (for licencing simplicity) so the main variations are in length.

 

For the IC225 you have BR, GNER, Natex, EC and now Virgin again - such a multitude of liveries and periods dilutes your market and makes getting sufficient numbers to warrant the release more difficult.  Add in getting licences for the liveries which will take time and you get quite a lot of hurdles to overcome.

 

Single locomotives are easier to commission especially if with limited liveries like the classic AC electrics as you are less likely to get the dilution of interest and less risk as there is less being commissioned as the coaches already exist in MKI, II and III through main ranges.

 

I don't see an IC225 as a Rapido offering but I would see an APT-P as something they would consider - collectible, straight forward livery options and fairly unique.

[justin1985]

Agreed that a APT is far more likely in N from Rapido. Although I might have worried the 'novelty factor' market might have been saturated by the OO model, but then that doesn't seem to have been the case with the Blue Pullman (which seems to have sold well in N) and the Brighton Belle (which seems to have sold reasonably well, if not perhaps as well). 

 

I still suspect that the 225 would be a better proposition as a whole train pack, or one or two packs to make a whole, rather than being released the 'traditional' way with a small loco+DVT and one or two coaches set and main range individual coaches. Including a good number of coaches in the initial pack justifies a higher price up front for limited extra tooling cost. And not selling coaches individually reduces the chances of unsold stock languishing.

 

Looking at images on Flickr, it seems like the window spacing on TSO and FO vehicles is the same on Mk4s? And the TSO(E) and FO(E) could be produced by designing the normal coach body with a clip-on corridor connection that could be left off. So the only moulds needed would be TSO\FO, TSO\FO with disabled toilet, and buffet car. Plus loco and DVT obviously. Therefore you could produce a train pack the same size and price as the Pendolino, but with less tooling complexity. In other words being able to set a price including multiple simple coaches would cross-subsidise the tooling cost of the unique loco, buffet, and DVT.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong on the complexities of Mk 4 coach types.

 

The licensing and artwork issue might be more of a question, and as you say might make the model better suited to a manufacturer who can include one livery in their catalogue each year over a number of years, rather than as "one shot" from pre-orders.

 

My point though is that I can only see it working as an all or nothing as a train pack, rather than new loco and tarted up old Farish coaches, or piecemeal loco book set followed six months later by coaches that don't quite match, a-la Dapol HSTs. 

[ash39]

You're pretty much right about the coaches, except there's no FOE coach as the last FO in the set leads to the DVT and therefore has a normal corridor connection.

 

The TSOE is possibly more involved than just removing the coridoor connection, the flat panel is recessed and has a small window and tail lights, so I'm not sure how that'd be tackled.

[justin1985]

You're pretty much right about the coaches, except there's no FOE coach as the last FO in the set leads to the DVT and therefore has a normal corridor connection.

 

The TSOE is possibly more involved than just removing the coridoor connection, the flat panel is recessed and has a small window and tail lights, so I'm not sure how that'd be tackled.

 

This is the only picture I can find of a Mk 4 set without the loco in usual position, and it looks to me like the marker lights are in the same position on the TSO(E) as there are recesses for them on all the other coaches? https://flic.kr/p/rcGfNv 

 

Compare with this normal TSO were there are bumps that look a lot like the marker lights in the same place, and the corridor connector sits within a similar recess : https://www.flickr.com/photos/73574431@N06/9066928531/

 

It looks to me like the corridor connection could just clip inside the recess of the TSO(E). In fact, I'm sure I remember reading that the TSO(E)s were constructed in such a way that the corridor could be reinstated if required (or at least it would be structurally possible). 

 

Presuming there are no further complications, you could tool for three coach moulds, and sell them in packs of nine, giving a relatively low tooling cost per set sold.

 

There were some differences to the loco after the GNER refurbishment, I think? But other than the DVT sprouting a WiFi roof pod, all the changes to the coaching stock were internal?