Making a start in 7mm for the first time : Now Dominion Dock Goods - Layout update

[Robin Gristwood]

As they say pride comes before a fall...you might have guessed from the lack of news the chassis did not run after being soldered.

 

I made the newbie mistake I guess of taking the wheels/axles out of the bearings and then soldering the axle bearings to the chassis, after all that’s what the instructions suggest.
Of course when I tried to put the axles back into the bearings they didn’t want to slide though both bearings, let alone run freely.

 

If it wasn’t for cost of the kit it might have well ended up in the bin, but after a day of disillusioned disappointment (and some thoughts about why did I sell all my HO stuff..!) I thought I would find out how to fix it.

 

First I had to get the wrongly aligned, but soldered fast, bearings out of the chassis frame.
A lot of heat from the 80W iron and leaning on the bearings over a wooden block with a suitably sized hole eventually did the trick.
I looked at the bearing all covered in solder now and thought I’d get some new ones from Kettering on Saturday.

 

In the meantime I looked at what some other people had done on here to align the bearings in the frame.

The thought of spending close on £200 for a jig to help with this seemed overkill.

I looked further and found the Markits hornblock alignment jigs from Roxey Mouldings, a much cheaper option even though I was building a rigid chassis I could use them make sure everything was true before I soldered anything.

Thanks to speedy service they arrived on Thursday.

 

I bought a new shiny set of axle bearings from Slaters on Saturday to replace the ones covered in solder. Got home ready and eager now to start the reconstruction.

 

Newbie mistake number 2 – all 3/16 axle bearings are the same..! -WRONG

 

Of course the Slaters axle bearings are much thicker and wont fit the bearing holes in the chassis frame.

I did for a little while think about reaming out the holes to fit the bigger bearings but they would be very close to the edge of the chassis frame and I thought might weaken it.

So it was out with the glassfibre burnisher and the scalpel blade to clean up the existing bearings to refit in the chassis.

 

When that tedious task was completed I was able to slide through the Markits extended axles and fit the coupling rods over the ends ready to solder the bearings in the right place this time...hopefully?

 

Success...I refitted the wheels, axles and coupling rods back into the chassis frame. Fingers crossed of course after the last debacle. The wheels on the diesel go round and round (even if they did catch a bit in a couple of places).

 

Some judicious use of a tapered reamer on the coupling rod holes and shortening the length of the coupling rod bushes reduced the binding. A couple of the holes needed to be slightly filed oval but nothing too drastic.
I attached the motor and tried it again. Much better. I ran it for a while after oiling the gears and axles.

 

Here is the result.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46hcPl9vCWg

 

Simon I hope this means you won’t be taking away your craftsmanship rating, although for a week it certainly wasn’t deserved..!

Edited March 7, 2016 by Robin Gristwood

[81A Oldoak]

As they say pride comes before a fall...you might have guessed from the lack of news the chassis did not run after being soldered.

 

I made the newbie mistake I guess of taking the wheels/axles out of the bearings and then soldering the axle bearings to the chassis, after all that’s what the instructions suggest.

Of course when I tried to put the axles back into the bearings they didn’t want to slide though both bearings, let alone run freely.

 

If it wasn’t for cost of the kit it might have well ended up in the bin, but after a day of disillusioned disappointment (and some thoughts about why did I sell all my HO stuff..!) I thought I would find out how to fix it.

 

First I had to get the wrongly aligned, but soldered fast, bearings out of the chassis frame.

A lot of heat from the 80W iron and leaning on the bearings over a wooden block with a suitably sized hole eventually did the trick.

I looked at the bearing all covered in solder now and thought I’d get some new ones from Kettering on Saturday.

 

In the meantime I looked at what some other people had done on here to align the bearings in the frame.

The thought of spending close on £200 for a jig to help with this seemed overkill.

I looked further and found the Markits hornblock alignment jigs from Roxey Mouldings, a much cheaper option even though I was building a rigid chassis I could use them make sure everything was true before I soldered anything.

Thanks to speedy service they arrived on Thursday.

 

I bought a new shiny set of axle bearings from Slaters on Saturday to replace the ones covered in solder. Got home ready and eager now to start the reconstruction.

 

Newbie mistake number 2 – all 3/16 axle bearings are the same..! -WRONG

 

Of course the Slaters axle bearings are much thicker and wont fit the bearing holes in the chassis frame.

I did for a little while think about reaming out the holes to fit the bigger bearings but they would be very close to the edge of the chassis frame and I thought might weaken it.

So it was out with the glassfibre burnisher and the scalpel blade to clean up the existing bearings to refit in the chassis.

 

When that tedious task was completed I was able to slide through the Markits extended axles and fit the coupling rods over the ends ready to solder the bearings in the right place this time...hopefully?

 

Success...I refitted the wheels, axles and coupling rods back into the chassis frame. Fingers crossed of course after the last debacle. The wheels on the diesel go round and round (even if they did catch a bit in a couple of places).

 

Some judicious use of a tapered reamer on the coupling rod holes and shortening the length of the coupling rod bushes reduced the binding. A couple of the holes needed to be slightly filed oval but nothing too drastic.

I attached the motor and tried it again. Much better. I ran it for a while after oiling the gears and axles.

 

Here is the result.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46hcPl9vCWg

 

Simon I hope this means you won’t be taking away your craftsmanship rating, although for a week it certainly wasn’t deserved..!

Running well after all.

[Simond]

Robin

 

Certainly not, it runs well, well done.

 

The only thing I might suggest is H2G2 - "Don't Panic!" Things will go wrong, most of them are recoverable, and there's lots of willing help on here!

 

I think we could have offered some guidance on fitting the bearings to the chassis (and getting them out!) and possibly saved you a bob or two into the bargain, but extended dummy axles is the way to go, so good choice there IMO.

 

For the next one, if the holes in the chassis are way oversize (whichever these obviously weren't) then rest the extended axles on a couple of bits of angle (you can get ally angle in B&Q) and rest these on an off cut of kitchen worktop, or plate glass, as that will ensure they're all flat, and it won't rock when you put it on the track. Elastic bands can be helpful for keeping the rods on the axles.

 

If you ever need to de-solder a chunky bit of brass like a bearing, a gas flame is very effective. Could be a blow-lamp or the gas cooker, put a bit of flux on the object, hold in pliers, cook it til the solder melts, bang it on something solid. Repeat if necessary. Don't over-cook it. And don't drop it on the Lino (guess how I know) as it will embed itself, and that's even more of a pain to clean up!

 

Keep up the good work, and keep posting pictures!

Best

Simon

[Mike Bellamy]

 

Here is the result.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46hcPl9vCWg

 

 

I have never attempted anything like that - however instead of talking about the chassis, I just wanted to comment on the YouTube film you posted - I was surprised how clear and sharp the video was - so many links go to poor quality out of focus videos that it makes you wonder why some people bother but that was perfect. May I ask what camera you used ?

 

.

[EKR]

 

The key to mastering any skill is knowing what to do when it does go wrong, and the great thing about soldering brass is that you can always undo it, clean and retry. 

Though some days it pays to stop modelling and do something else before it all goes to hell in a handcart.

 

The other morning I sat down  and soldered on the cab spectacles prior to fixing the cab front on the footplate. Really neat job with no excess solder.to clean off. Presented it to the footplate and realised I'd soldered them on the inside   

Wisely took my wife shopping instead.......

[Robin Gristwood]

I have never attempted anything like that - however instead of talking about the chassis, I just wanted to comment on the YouTube film you posted - I was surprised how clear and sharp the video was - so many links go to poor quality out of focus videos that it makes you wonder why some people bother but that was perfect. May I ask what camera you used ?

 

.

 

Mike,

 

I used the video feature of my Panasonic Lumix DMC-LF1. I have to say a lovely little compact camera.

[Simond]

EKR

 

I rated your post as "funny", because I laughed.

 

Guess why....

 

Best

Simon

Happily, my wife hates shopping almost as much as I do...

[81A Oldoak]

EKR

 

I rated your post as "funny", because I laughed.

 

Guess why....

 

Best

Simon

Happily, my wife hates shopping almost as much as I do...

I chuckled too because of the number of times I have had to undo a piece of work, usually because I have either not read the instructions properly or not at all. I find my little gas blow torch from Maplin a godsend in such circumstances. Still, worse things have happened at sea.

 

Regards,

 

Chris

[toplink@()1989))((]

A long time ago a friend asked me to have a look at a Connoisseur models LNER J50 he had built and asked if I would sort it out for him, foolishly I agreed before seeing it, to say it was not well assembled is a massive understatement, I had to completely disassemble it which I did by putting it on an old tray and sticking it into the oven on high temp until it fell apart, it was then a " simple " job of completely rebuilding it for him!  

[Simond]

It's easier, quicker and less dangerous with whitemetal. All you need is a kettle full of boiling water.

 

Been there more than once!

 

Best

Simon

[Robin Gristwood]

..and make sure you use the kettle for the white metal before you put in into the oven on high I imagine

[EKR]

Actually I find the RSU is great for selective removal of bits.

 

Though it's main use is as a nudger.

Something a fraction out of true, nudge it with the pointy bit. No need to clean and redo.

Worth every penny.

[Robin Gristwood]

I’m guessing that anyone who was following this topic must have thought that I had fallen by the wayside and my journey into O gauge had been curtailed.
I’m glad to report that is not so.
 
Although I have been negligent in keeping this thread up to date (I think ten months have passed since I posted anything) I have actually been busy building a layout....honest

I have left the DJH 03 shunter kit to concentrate on the layout itself. It seemed little point to me to be building locos without a layout to run anything on.

I had said previously that I had settled on modelling a station downgraded to only handling goods.

After discussing my ideas with a group of friends over large quantities of cake and endless cups of tea, the Templot track plan was amended slightly to change the direction of the loco release and to base the layout on a smaller version of one of the many and varied ‘goods only’ stations built to serve the numerous docks in Liverpool.
 
Further inspiration was provided by one of the group through a series of sketches’ to help to visualise what it could look like when finished (you might recognise the artists style?)
 

 
 
          
 

 

So the baseboard was built using timber and ply uprights from my previous layout, topped with 9mm ply.

Positioning of the uprights took into account where I would need to place turnout controls, as well as where the bridge would go.

 

Printing out a full size Templot plan was invaluable to achieve this.

  

 

Track-building has almost been completed now and test running has begun

 

 

I was also drawn to photos of Birmingham Central Goods that I found on the internet

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/centralgoods.htm

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrcgy912.htm

 

I am a complete novice when it comes to signalling, but I would like to have a signal box and appropriate signals for my plan.

 

I was intrigued how Birmingham Central Goods was signalled.

 

I had assumed such locations would have seen a plethora of ground signals to control shunting, but I can’t see any at all, nor any catch points either.

 

The box diagram just shows five signals.

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrcgy909.htm

 

Would this be a likely set up for what I am planning on modelling?

 

 

I am looking at either a LNWR or L&Y goods station in BR times, does this make any difference as to how it would be signalled?

The other difference would be the branch running off to the docks.

 

I would be grateful for any help with this question 

[MarshLane]

Hi Robin,

Im no expert by any means, and certainly not on LNWR, but I would suggest that on the 'Birmingham Central Goods' Box diagram there would have been a ground signal within the tunnel on what becomes the departure road, but I guess it may have been controlled by the next box, up near Five Ways if this map is anything to go by.  Somebody far more knowledgable will no doubt chip in with an accurate answer, but id assume that given there is a box at Birmingham Central Goods, then the block section through the tunnels would have been 'blocked back' (i.e. occupied) for shunting moves, with departures seemingly only allowed from certain roads.

 

Given the lack of passenger traffic at the location, and the terminal nature, there wouldn't be any need for each road that shunting takes place on to be signalled, nor a need for catch points.

 

On your plan , I would have thought there would be a signal on the Docks branch (unless you fully signal the exchange siding and the two roads below it which would seem overkill) which would I guess be Token worked to the next box on the branch or a 'one engine in steam' token issued.

 

EDIT: Forgot to add - like the idea and what your doing, and your illustrations are superb!  Following along with your progress.

 

Rich

Edited January 12, 2017 by MarshLane

[Robin Gristwood]

 

Given the lack of passenger traffic at the location, and the terminal nature, there wouldn't be any need for each road that shunting takes place on to be signalled, nor a need for catch points.

 

On your plan , I would have thought there would be a signal on the Docks branch (unless you fully signal the exchange siding and the two roads below it which would seem overkill) which would I guess be Token worked to the next box on the branch or a 'one engine in steam' token issued.

 

 

Thanks for that Rich, but I have to admit I still don't know where the signals would be best placed on my plan

 

 

EDIT: Forgot to add - like the idea and what your doing, and your illustrations are superb!  Following along with your progress.

 

 

That's very kind of you, but I cannot take any credit for the sketches as these were done by my friend Tove

 

I will endeavour to update this thread more often than I have been

[MarshLane]

Hi Robin

Ah I thought I recognised the artwork! I almost commented that they were on a par with Those by Tove!!

 

In terms of signals, are you going to work on the premise of departing from any siding, or having dedicated departure roads?

 

Rich

[Tove]

 

That's very kind of you, but I cannot take any credit for the sketches as these were done by my friend Tove

 

 

Hi Robin

Ah I thought I recognised the artwork! I almost commented that they were on a par with Those by Tove!!

 

Rich

Not me govnor....never eard of im.....

 

Cheers,

 

Winston Churchill......

[Robin Gristwood]

In terms of signals, are you going to work on the premise of departing from any siding, or having dedicated departure roads?

 

Rich

 

Hi Rich,

 

I don't think I need to have departures from every siding.

I'm hoping this diagram helps making things a bit clearer as to what signals I would need.

 

 

I'm guessing that the signals that would control the route into the loop would be further back (off the layout) and wouldn't need to be modelled?

[MarshLane]

Hi Robin

Ok, well two thoughts then.  Depending on the period your modelling, if your working on one engine in steam for the BR side, you could get away with no signals at all.  If there's only one loco allowed on the branch, none are needed.  If there are two, I would suggest a home signal after the BR line comes onto the board, before the first point.  Logically that would need to be one of two options either a shunt signal (like this) with three arms, or ground signal with multiple discs (which give the three routes available from that point, assuming the crossover points at 78/60 on the left hand side of your plan are hand worked, or a bracket along the lines of this example.

 

You need to bear in mind the function of the signals.  Home signals (such as the middle two in the second example) give the driver permission to proceed and tell him the line is clear to the next signal, stopboard or buffer stops.  But in the real world, if there was a wagon or loco already on that siding, that statement wouldn't be true, in which case the home signal could not be cleared.  A shunt or calling on signal (i.e. first example) says, that the driver has permission to proceed, but that the route may not be clear to the next signal, stop board or buffer stops and as such the driver should proceed with caution and be prepared to stop.

 

I think that the former would be the better option, but I don't know how the LNWR would have signalled such moves.

 

In terms of departures, you'd probably have a home signal  somewhere around the end of the red line to control departures.  Again, a home signal says that the driver is clear to proceed to the next signal - which would work for departing trains, as the signalman would have obtained the single line token to be able to release the home signal.  But for shunt moves that wouldn't be necessary as the train wouldn't be continuing through the section, so a ground signal would likely also be placed at the same point, just in front of the home signal.  SO the home controls departures, the ground controls shunts.

 

As for the docks system, most industrial lines didn't really use signalling but again I'm not up on MDR history.   There would have been signs up saying 'Mersey Docks Railway locomotives not to pass this point', i.e. a limit of their operation on the BR lines, and equally the MDR lines would have had a 'British Railways locomotives not to pass this point', I would have thought.

 

Like I said earlier, I enjoy signalling, but I'm not an expert, so others may have other thoughts or ideas, but thats how id look at it, unless further history/comment from others was forthcoming.

 

Hope that helps.  Understanding signalling is not just about where they go, its what the different types mean and the authority they give.

 

Rich

[MarshLane]

Thinking about it, there may also have been ground signals at the departure end of the arrival road, and just after the departure end of the crossover of the top two sidings, as there would need to be a way of preventing movements if a departure was signalled.

 

Rich

[Robin Gristwood]

Hi Robin

Ok, well two thoughts then.  Depending on the period your modelling, if your working on one engine in steam for the BR side, you could get away with no signals at all.  If there's only one loco allowed on the branch, none are needed.  If there are two, I would suggest a home signal after the BR line comes onto the board, before the first point.  Logically that would need to be one of two options either a shunt signal (like this) with three arms, or ground signal with multiple discs (which give the three routes available from that point, assuming the crossover points at 78/60 on the left hand side of your plan are hand worked, or a bracket along the lines of this example.

 

You need to bear in mind the function of the signals.  Home signals (such as the middle two in the second example) give the driver permission to proceed and tell him the line is clear to the next signal, stopboard or buffer stops.  But in the real world, if there was a wagon or loco already on that siding, that statement wouldn't be true, in which case the home signal could not be cleared.  A shunt or calling on signal (i.e. first example) says, that the driver has permission to proceed, but that the route may not be clear to the next signal, stop board or buffer stops and as such the driver should proceed with caution and be prepared to stop.

 

I think that the former would be the better option, but I don't know how the LNWR would have signalled such moves.

 

In terms of departures, you'd probably have a home signal  somewhere around the end of the red line to control departures.  Again, a home signal says that the driver is clear to proceed to the next signal - which would work for departing trains, as the signalman would have obtained the single line token to be able to release the home signal.  But for shunt moves that wouldn't be necessary as the train wouldn't be continuing through the section, so a ground signal would likely also be placed at the same point, just in front of the home signal.  SO the home controls departures, the ground controls shunts.

 

As for the docks system, most industrial lines didn't really use signalling but again I'm not up on MDR history.   There would have been signs up saying 'Mersey Docks Railway locomotives not to pass this point', i.e. a limit of their operation on the BR lines, and equally the MDR lines would have had a 'British Railways locomotives not to pass this point', I would have thought.

 

Like I said earlier, I enjoy signalling, but I'm not an expert, so others may have other thoughts or ideas, but thats how id look at it, unless further history/comment from others was forthcoming.

 

Hope that helps.  Understanding signalling is not just about where they go, its what the different types mean and the authority they give.

 

Rich

 

 

Thinking about it, there may also have been ground signals at the departure end of the arrival road, and just after the departure end of the crossover of the top two sidings, as there would need to be a way of preventing movements if a departure was signalled.

 

Rich

 

Thanks for that Rich.

 

The era is 60's steam and diesel. It definitely wouldn't be one engine in steam. I was actually thinking of stationing a pilot for shunting if I could get away with it.

 

I've had a go at interpreting what you propose on the plan. Does this look anything like you suggested?

 

How would access to the exchange siding be controlled either by BR loco or Docks shunter?

Would that need some sort of signalling too?

 

I really appreciate your help with this Rich

Edited January 15, 2017 by Robin Gristwood

[MarshLane]

Hi Robin,

Yes you've grasped what I was meaning totally there!  On that three arm shunt, the top arm would control access to Sidings 1/2 (the crossover being hand worked by ground staff I'm presuming), the middle arm into the arrival siding, and the bottom arm in the departure/exchange siding - again the point into the latter and the crossover to the Mersey Docks system being handworked.

 

Im thinking that there should be a ground signal located as shown on my attachment.  This would be one of two varieties.  It could be a double disc ground signal with the top giving access to the exchange siding, and the bottom giving access to the two MDR sidings, OR it could be an unusual single black ground signal with a yellow bar (like this one) - this has a special meaning, in that movements can pass it at danger for the purpose of shunting into the two MDR sidings, but all movements MUST obey it for shunting into the exchange siding.  I think the latter would probably be more suitable, as it means that the BR signaller only has control over movements into the exchange siding.  

 

In recent years, I only know of two of these remaining on the network one in the sidings at Barnetby, the other at Edale - but the Barnetby one has now gone, with the re-signalling.  Interestingly I saw it on ebay a few weeks back!!!

 

Rich

 

 

[Robin Gristwood]

Im thinking that there should be a ground signal located as shown on my attachment.  This would be one of two varieties.  It could be a double disc ground signal with the top giving access to the exchange siding, and the bottom giving access to the two MDR sidings, OR it could be an unusual single black ground signal with a yellow bar (like this one) - this has a special meaning, in that movements can pass it at danger for the purpose of shunting into the two MDR sidings, but all movements MUST obey it for shunting into the exchange siding.  I think the latter would probably be more suitable, as it means that the BR signaller only has control over movements into the exchange siding.  

 

In recent years, I only know of two of these remaining on the network one in the sidings at Barnetby, the other at Edale - but the Barnetby one has now gone, with the re-signalling.  Interestingly I saw it on ebay a few weeks back!!!

 

Rich

 

Thanks again Rich.

 

I like the idea of the black/yellow ground signal too. As you say it would mean the BR box would only control movement into the exchange which is what I envisaged.

I did see a photo of another example here (this example is lower quadrant type though). This was literally a couple of miles away from where I live now.

 

I did work at Longbridge for several years for the company loading cars onto trains, but never thought to take any photos. Of course now everything is gone and the whole area has been re-developed.

[MarshLane]

Hi Robin,

Your welcome.

 

Ah course, within the old Longbridge plant.  That example is allowing unlimited access into the headshunt, but controlling movements leaving the yard passing through the bridge. Quite amazing to think that all of Longbridge has gone - I was watching an old Telerail DVD on the West Midlands the other day, filmed about 1992-1993, which details the Longbridge operation quite substantially!

 

The idea and background to the layout looks good, shall be keenly watching it develop!

 

Rich

[Jon Fitness]

Just catching up with this thread; looks a superb project! Lots of lovely warehouses and a nice curve to it all. I'll be keeping my eye on this!

Jon F.