Wharfeside, a lifetime's project

[davefrk]

Dave, you have staff, what else does Fiona do?

 

Mike.

 

Fiona is thinking of a suitable riposte to you regarding your noisy hoover and something about where the sun may or may not shine....

You are for it my boy, for IT...

 

Dave Franks.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Fiona is thinking of a suitable riposte to you regarding your noisy hoover and something about where the sun may or may not shine....

You are for it my boy, for IT...

 

Dave Franks.

 

Ha, she don't scare me, no horrible hibernians of either sex with skirts can.

 

Mike.

[davefrk]

Ha, she don't scare me, no horrible hibernians of either sex with skirts can.

 

Mike.

 

What if I said she was part Irish?

 

Dave.

[Enterprisingwestern]

What if I said she was part Irish?

 

Dave.

 

I surrender.

 

Mike.

[davefrk]

Not much progress worth photographing, photos of wiring doesn't do it for me. More 25 way jumper cables made, the sockets fitted to the baseboards and wired up has shewn up an anomaly as the outer most rail is wired in red on the Leeds side and blue on the Ilkley side - hmmm. Still the railway runs though.

 

Dave Franks.

[davefrk]

Still not much progress worth photographing but the wiring up of the jumper cable sockets has now reached round to the fiddleyard. Last night I was sitting underneath the railway looking at the jumble of wires from the pointwork at the east end of the fiddleyard and saying I should have gone DCC. No wait! Wash my mouth out with Swarfega.... We can do it, it'll just take a little time. It all works at the moment with the dropper wires twisted together so just putting them into some sort of order and plugging them in it should still work.

And having got some Exactoscale slide chairs to finish off the double slip at the goods yard exit I've been fitting these to an already working formation, it still seems to work, will post a pic when I remember to take the camera.

 

By the way anyone interested in a box of C&L flexi track - 25 metres, OO gauge, nickel silver, like new in a dusty box. One of our members has it, could be delivered at a show sometime, Perth is next visit, good price.

 

Dave Franks

Edited July 5, 2016 by davefrk

[AJCT]

Last night I was sitting underneath the railway looking at the jumble of wires from the pointwork at the east end of the fiddleyard and saying I should have gone DCC.....

 

Dave Franks

 

Er... have you seen the amount of wiring under "Burntisland 1883" ??

 

Alasdair

[Mad McCann]

You about on Monday, chief?

[davefrk]

You about on Monday, chief?

Hi Dave, I suppose it could be arranged, the railway is running despite my ongoing wiring efforts...

Phone me over the weekend.

[davefrk]

Er... have you seen the amount of wiring under "Burntisland 1883" ??

 

Alasdair

 

Yes Alasdair, and under Mostyn too, had a play with those guys a few years ago.

To be honest I'll need to sit down and draw a proper wiring diagram for Wharfeside's fiddleyard cause I'll not remember what wire is what next week let alone next year. It is colour coded but at the moment it's - what colour does what. Hoping to build the fiddleyard panel this summer and maybe have visitors over from the East side....

 

Dave Franks

[davefrk]

Not been much time for working on Wharfeside this wee while but I have been doing some work on coaches. The new Hornby LMS non corridors would be a godsend for Wharfeside but the local trains of 2 and 3 coaches were a mixed bag of period 2 and period 3 coaches and those in the know would also spot the different period 3 coaches too. I've been studying the differences and have been altering the Hornby's to suit, things like changing the orrible shell vents for Lanarkshire Models torpedo vents has made quite a difference though most of the LMS batches had shell vents I've found some with torpedo vents with the roof ribs, the next job is to do some late LMS/BR built period 3s with the smooth roof and dome vents which are set closer to the roof centreline, this also means making the coach frames the welded type, the models already have welded bogies fitted so we are half way there.

One question I need an answer to is the train composition for the Waverley Express north of Leeds in late 1958, I already have the Thames/Clyde Express made up after a false start due to the incorrect info, too many SOs for my period. The Waverley was usually a nine coach set but with an extra SK or SOs on certain days. I once had the book on train compositions but I think it was lent out years ago and not been returned.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Dave Franks.

[Mad McCann]

Dave.

 

Thames-Forth/ Waverley formations from the book;

 

1954 - B3/C3/C3/C3/C3/C3/R3/C1/CC/B3 

 

1960 - B2/02/02/02/R1/C1/CC/CC/B2

 

In both cases, the bun truck was an LMS 12 wheeler. Otherwise solid Mk1. Guess the 1960 formation is closest match for you.

 

Dave.

[DerekEm8]

Dave,

 

email sent

 

Derek

[davefrk]

Re. Waverley formation.

Thanks guys but there's the problem, in 1960 the seconds were open coaches, in 1958 the Thames Clyde still had second corridors and this changed to opens around 59/60 and I suspect the Waverley was the same. I've looked at many a photo and counted the roof vents to id the coach types but then is the date right in the caption.

I would like to get it right just for my own satisfaction.

 

Dave Franks.

[Jub45565]

Interesting point re the Thames Clyde formation change there Dave, where is it you found that info? Could you clarify what the 1958 formation is please?

 

I also like how you've set at 1958!  Is it, by any chance, due to the local trains still being steam hauled til the end of the year, but DMUs also being used on driver training turns?

 

Cheers,

[davefrk]

Hi Pete, I found an article (copyright) about the Thames/Clyde on the web by Robert William Carroll. It showed the formations and these were apparently taken from the relevant LMR marshalling Circular lists for June and September 1958, they were very similar but there was an extra SK on Saturdays (in red) from June till, I suppose, the September list.  The formation was :- Leeds- Carlisle, Down, BSK,CK,FK,RF,SO,4xSK,SK,BSK. 

The June 1960 formation shows one of the regular SKs being replaced by an SO and later photos show more SOs in place of SKs in similar fashion to the Waverley as per Mad McCann's post and Derek's PM, thanks guys.

I am happy to use the September list for the TC but as I did have too many SOs I'm having to buy up more SKs.

This still leaves the Waverley though and I'm assuming that the formation was very similar but one less SK so until further info comes up I go with the SKs as per photos of 1958.

 

Yes from end of September 58 on the Wharfedale line one occasionally saw the driver training DMU, a 2 car Met/Cam shuttling up and down as well as the steam locals, also the older locos were becoming knacked and a few locos were drafted in for a few months till the DMUs started in January 59, locos like BR 84015, 76048/84 and a final week list from former signalman F.W.Smith shows LMS 2Ps and 4Fs, BR 84015, Ivatt 2mts tank and tender, Ivatt 4mts, Black Fives, Fairburns, a Stanier 2-6-4 tank plus the usual Stanier 3mt 2-6-2 tanks and that was just the locals, a great variety. A few Compounds were still to be seen on the Morecambe's as well.

Gosh, all this has got me fired up, I may do some modelling tonight.

 

Dave Franks.

[Jub45565]

Hi Dave,  ah yes, thanks for the reminder - I do have that saved. Very useful article.

 

I presume, but could be wrong, that the change to SOs came at the same time as the 12 wheel LMS dining car being replaced by the RKB?  My 1960 notes (which I thought came from the same source) suggest:

13/6/60: BSK(24)*, CK(24/18)*, FK(42)*, RF(24), SO(64)*,3 SK(48)*, SK(48)(SO)*, SO(48)*, BSK(24)* (*Mk1 stock, ie all but the RF)

 

12/9/60: All BR Mk1 stock,

BSK(24),CK(24/18), FK(42), FO(42), RKB, SK(48), SO(64), SO(48), BSK(24)

 

I need to double check the September 1960 rake, it is a bit short! My rake will nominally be 1958, but with a 1960 option so I can slot in an A3 or Peak.

 

I'd be interested to know if you do find any info on the Waverley (and I'll share if I find anything), the other rake I don't have a lot if info on at the moment is the summer Saturday Saltburn-Blackpool train.

 

Yes, there's nothing like a bit of forum browsing to kick start some progress!

[davefrk]

Hi all, thanks are due to Robert Carroll. He has furnished us with the September 1958 marshalling lists for the winter timetable of 'The Waverley ' London  St Pancras to Edinburgh. 

 

The down train from Leeds after reversal :- BSK, CK, FK, SO, RF(LMS), CK, 2xSO, BSK. Looking through my boxes I now only need an FK to complete both the Waverley and the Thames/Clyde.

The choice of locos include Scots, Cameronian and Duke of Wellington, Jubilees, Black Fives, LMS 2P (as pilot) and newly transferred Scottish Brits Dornoch Firth, Moray Firth and occasionally Clan Macintosh plus just for 'playtime' an A3 and a Peak D30, both out of my period but fun anyway.

We are sorted.

 

Dave Franks.

[Jub45565]

 The Scot has to be the Duke of Wellington, with his West Riding Regiment! Thanks for the formation Dave, very useful.

 

Cheers,

Pete

[AJCT]

Hi Dave –

 

 

Here's my take on "The Waverley": as well as the info from the Carter book quoted by Mad McCann, I have an extract from the Summer 1962 Sc.R. marshalling booklet.  I know this is a bit later than your period, but it gives the Up working as:

 

 

BSK (24), 2SO (64), SO (64) (32 seats for dining), RF (24) (LMS), FK (42), 2CK (24/18), BSK (24).

 

 

And here it is descending the 1-in-75 towards Newton Duns behind Peak D20 -

 

 

As you can see, I’ve trimmed it to the winter formation of 8 vehicles by taking out one of the SOs… otherwise it wouldn’t fit the layout….  For the RF, I'm using the Hornby 12-wheeler (M230M) with a crude-but-effective form of compensation (ie it works) but do you have any details of what the correct diagram of LMS vehicle it should be?

 

 

Must get those hogsback bridge girders finished….

 

 

Cheers –

 

 

Alasdair

 

[robertcwp]

This is the article referred to. I have not updated it since 2013:

 

Thames-Clyde-Express_Notes_17-7-13.pdf

Edited October 31, 2018 by robertcwp

[davefrk]

 The Scot has to be the Duke of Wellington, with his West Riding Regiment! Thanks for the formation Dave, very useful.

 

Cheers,

Pete

You are correct of course, I just couldn't be bothered writing it all out....

 

Dave Franks.

[davefrk]

 

Hi Dave –

 

 

Here's my take on "The Waverley": as well as the info from the Carter book quoted by Mad McCann, I have an extract from the Summer 1962 Sc.R. marshalling booklet.  I know this is a bit later than your period, but it gives the Up working as:

 

 

BSK (24), 2SO (64), SO (64) (32 seats for dining), RF (24) (LMS), FK (42), 2CK (24/18), BSK (24).

 

 

And here it is descending the 1-in-75 towards Newton Duns behind Peak D20 -

 

P061016_3478_2.JPG

 

As you can see, I’ve trimmed it to the winter formation of 8 vehicles by taking out one of the SOs… otherwise it wouldn’t fit the layout….  For the RF, I'm using the Hornby 12-wheeler (M230M) with a crude-but-effective form of compensation (ie it works) but do you have any details of what the correct diagram of LMS vehicle it should be?

 

 

Must get those hogsback bridge girders finished….

 

 

Cheers –

 

 

Alasdair

 

 

Hi Alasdair, The railway has come on since you showed me photos a while ago.

I had been looking through my Jenkinson books on LMS coaches and although I'm certainly no expert I believe the model is of a period 2 convertible restaurant car and could be set up for first or third depending on the traffic requirements and therefore didn't have a class number on the doors but would have the appropriate sign in the window next to the door. What the books don't say is whether this idea carried on into BR days. The Airfix/Hornby model seems to be a dia.1811 if your numbering is correct. I did have a search a few years ago for alternative RF sides for both the Period 2 and period 3 RFs but no joy so for me it will be the 1811 set up for first class and a Stanier dia.1938 (on loan from a colleague) also set up for first class. Of course we are all open to correction on this surmise.

I did ask around a few years ago if anyone knew what the restaurant cars actually were on both services but no one could tell me.

 

Dave Franks

Edited June 10, 2016 by davefrk

[Jub45565]

You are correct of course, I just couldn't be bothered writing it all out....

 

Dave Franks.

Yes, sorry, I wasn't trying to take a (the?) French swimming pool, merely commenting on why that one is a good choice. Both you mentioned are of the Holbeck stable & worthy candidates:-)

[davefrk]

Now found the pictures I took a few months ago, why do you forget where you put your memory cards?

 

DJH Black Five and Airfix 4F, both breathed on and fitted with compensated chassis. Yes the cardboard goods shed is only temporary.

 

 

DJH Clan Macintosh on a Leeds to Glasgow, detailed and fitted with compensated chassis.

 

 

Black Five on the evening van train to Glasgow. The Hornby signal box is on loan from one of the juniors till the taller Modelex one is built.

Trackwork is:- from L to R, C&L flexi, Ply sleepers with C&L chairs, C&L flexi, Bill Bedford BR Mark 1 etched baseplates with

C&L flatbottom rail on precut copperclad sleepers, C&L thick sleepers and C&L chairs.

 

 

DJH Fairburn tank on the teatime local which included a van for parcels, CSB sprung chassis.

 

Yes and now I've got some loco lamps done I'll have to make time to fit them.

 

Fiddleyard wiring still ongoing.

 

Dave Franks.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by davefrk