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what can be used as pre grouping wagon loads


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I have a load of oil drums from a ww2 model set, but can I use them for pre 1923? As I am asking I might as well ask when too were wooden pallets introduced, the kind that fork lift trucks shift around and also the metal pressurized beer barrels ? Could I use these as time accurate pre grouping wagon loads too?

Many thanks

Richard

Edited by richard i
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I remember reading a book on early motor cars, which talked about the difficulties of buying petrol in bulk before WW1. In most places it was sold in relatively small metal containers in chemists, mainly for cleaning purposes. There are stories of motorists frantically searching Chemists in unfamiliar towns to try and buy enough to get their car moving again.

 

According to Wikipedia the modern oil drum was invented in Nazi Germany and became widespread in WW2. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drum_(container)

That's my useless fact for the day learnt......

Edited by pete_mcfarlane
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Don't believe everything on Wikipedia. The 55 US gallon (44 imp. gallon) drum as we know it today was invented by an American - technically by a woman, Nelly Bly, in 1900 but patented by Henry Wehrhahn of Brooklyn in 1905. They first went into mass production in 1907. The rolling hoops were originally I beam attached after the drum was completed, but formed into the sides from 1910. The first known use in Europe was a shipment of acid from the USA in 1914. The earlier 42 US gallon curved sided barrel (the international measure of a "barrel" of oil) was still in widespread use for petroleum products well into the 1920s. It wasn't until the 1930s the 55 US gallon drum became predominant in the USA and spread to other countries right before WW2. It was the 20 litre pressed steel petrol can invented in Germany in 1937 that was copied by the Allies (and nicknamed the "Jerry can").

 

The modern wooden palette was patented by George Raymond in 1938 to go with an improved design of palette jack. The idea itself wasn't new but each manufacturer and even each company using them had unique dimensions. The disposable version of the same palette made relatively crudely from low grade wood dates from 1949.

 

Cheers

David

Edited by DavidB-AU
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Interesting that Richard should ask this as I too have often wondered when oil drums came into use and whether such a load would be appropriate.

 

On a similar subject, when did cable drums come in and if it was pre-1923, what size were the originals?

 

Jim

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Interesting that Richard should ask this as I too have often wondered when oil drums came into use and whether such a load would be appropriate.

 

On a similar subject, when did cable drums come in and if it was pre-1923, what size were the originals?

 

Jim

Go for it, let's turn it into what we can have as loads and what we can not.

I have heard seal skins elsewhere ( how to model them?)

Thanks for the advice on oil drums, palettes, and barrels.

Richard

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If its of any interest one load that was moved in wooden barrels from Tidworth military camp in the early days was (if you'll pardon the description) dog excrement from the kennels! Apparently this was used in the leather tanning process.

 

John.

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Bales of raw cotton, sacks of wool cast iron pipes, sanitary ware, tiles, bricks, wood in many forms, acid in bottles wrapped in straw, tar oil products, castings, lamp oil, sacks of grain, sacks of potato's the list is endless of course anything valuable would be in a van and anything liable to water damage would be under a tarpaulin in transit and only revealed when unloading.  

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Hi Richard

 

Many loads would have been sheeted to protect them from the elements. 

 

A book that you might find usefull is "Freight wagons and loads in service with the GWR" by J H Russell http://www.amazon.co.uk/Freight-Wagons-Loads-Service-GWR/dp/0860931552

 

It has quite a few photos of pre-grouping wagon loads.

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Richard,

I would agree with what has been said in that many loads were in sheeted open wagons, so I am given to understand.  Mikkel's thread has a lot of information about loads and crates and his blog has more on barrels.  There is some discussion about loads on my thread around page 32 but it is amongst other stuff.

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Pre-grouping railways had more open wagons than vans and the proportion of vans increased with time. IIRC, the ordinary vans, excluding specials like meat vans, were about a third of the wagon fleet in the 1930s and about half the fleet in the 1960s. I'd guess about 5-10% vans around 1900. Therefore, pre-WW1, almost anything that moved in an unfitted train would be in an open wagon; but anything that could possibly be damaged by weather would be sheeted over. The sheets were also used to restrain loose loads and may have helped avoid pilfering. The oil barrels might even have been sheeted to ward off sparks from the locos.

 

Inventing loads that don't need sheeting is fairly taxing. I'm planning to run quite a few wagons of building materials, given that my location (London) saw much development in my period (c. 1908). I'll have bricks, roofing slates (Cambrian Railways wagons), roofing beams (on bolsters), stone setts for paving the roads (in the PO wagons of the quarries, possibly from Clee Hill) and probably some building stone (1-plank wagons, either PO or railway owned). Cement may also feature, but that did travel in vans.  

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If its of any interest one load that was moved in wooden barrels from Tidworth military camp in the early days was (if you'll pardon the description) dog excrement from the kennels! Apparently this was used in the leather tanning process.

 

John.

Colloquially known as 'Pure', I believe.

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Colloquially known as 'Pure', I believe.

Hi Brian and all

 

Pure finding was a job that many a poor person done to earn some money. http://waggietail.co.uk/

 

Perhaps today if people were paid for picking up their dog mess those who think they don't have to would do so.

 

Anyhow back to wagon loads. A large number of wagons would be empties being returned to their owning company or just being moved from the storage sidings to where their next load was. There was no common user agreement until WW1.

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Wedgwood pottery was carried in wooden barrels packed with straw. I suppose even if they could no longer hold liquids, they were good still strong containers.

 

Learned at the Barlaston Wedgewood Pottery museum a week ago.

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Urine was collected from pubs, also for leather tanning. The poor collected their own at home to sell too.

 

Hence the phrases "taking the p___".

Also, the poorest of the poor "didn't have enough money for a pot to p___ in".

Edited by 28XX
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The important thing to recognise when we talk of goods being transported in barrels at that time is that these were wooden barrels rather than steel drums.

 

Pre-pallets and hydraulic pallet trucks, items had to be manhandled and a barrel is much more easily moved than a rectangular crate or a sack.  Whatever could not be manhandled would have to be lifted with a crane - no half way house. 

 

Of course at that time it was expected that an individual would be able to lift much more than now - no HSE kinetic handling rules in 1922 limiting a manual lift to 25kg.   (I still don't know how they get away with selling cement, sand and ballast in 33kg sacks). 

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Urine was collected from pubs, also for leather tanning. The poor collected their own at home to sell too.

 

Hence the phrases "taking the p___".

Also, the poorest of the poor "didn't have enough money for a pot to p___ in".

Even up until WW2, there was someone who made his living in my home town of Llanelli by collecting the urine from public houses. This was sold on to the local tinplate works, where it was used to 'pickle' steel before tinplating. The main producers of the liquid gold were steel and tinplate workers, the beer that fuelled its production coming from breweries owned by the same families who owned the steel and tin works. 

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If your layout happens to run between your loo and your modelling bench, you could collect and transport the amber liquid for real! Apparently brass can be chemically blackened by soaking it in warm urine. It's slower than conventional chemicals, but much cheaper. I picked up this possibly useful bit of information from here, but I think you need to be registered to read it.

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Hi Brian and all

 

Pure finding was a job that many a poor person done to earn some money. http://waggietail.co.uk/

 

Perhaps today if people were paid for picking up their dog mess those who think they don't have to would do so.

 

Anyhow back to wagon loads. A large number of wagons would be empties being returned to their owning company or just being moved from the storage sidings to where their next load was. There was no common user agreement until WW1.

True, but I want a busy and ultra efficient railway so there will mostly be full wagons, except the returning coal empties......they also look better and have more weight so they ride better.

Hence the need for suggestions for loads to ring the changes in the fleet from just boxes and barrels which seem to be the most common options.

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Spoil from building works, no 8 wheeler tippers in them days so the railways carried quite a bit. It would be in open wagons not mineral wagons as it was denser than coal. Pit props, timber from Scandinavia landed at the GCR dock at Immingham. Animal fodder, it would be sheeted but because it piled so high the sheet acted to stop it falling off the wagon rather than protect it from the weather.

Edited by Clive Mortimore
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