what can be used as pre grouping wagon loads

[corneliuslundie]

There is a lot of useful information on early oil and similar traffic in "Oil on the rails" (HMRS, still available and now reduced to just £6 plus postage).

 

http://www.hmrs.org.uk/books/bookdetails.php?bookid=1021

 

End of advert

[kevinlms]

Interesting that Richard should ask this as I too have often wondered when oil drums came into use and whether such a load would be appropriate.

 

On a similar subject, when did cable drums come in and if it was pre-1923, what size were the originals?

 

Jim

Cable drums would have come in all sorts of sizes, both diameter & width. It depends on the thickness (number of Amps) the cable was expected to carry and the length required.

 

I frequently drive past a cable manufacturers/importer & the yard has a large variety of sizes. Obviously modern depots use forklifts etc to handle them, but in earlier times, they would have used portable yard cranes.

 

Remember electric trains and trams were around from the late 19th century and would have been quite heavy cable and needed to be handled back then.

 

Don't forget, wire ropes & chains would almost certainly have been transported on drums too, so much earlier.

[kevinlms]

If its of any interest one load that was moved in wooden barrels from Tidworth military camp in the early days was (if you'll pardon the description) dog excrement from the kennels! Apparently this was used in the leather tanning process.

 

John.

Some early issues of MRJ had details of GWR hound vans & there was discussion on the use of the by products! Apparently good for the hands as well as leather - perhaps! Stopped the workers from nail chewing, doubtless!

 

See MRJ's from about 19 to 23 including letters, etc.

[kevinlms]

The important thing to recognise when we talk of goods being transported in barrels at that time is that these were wooden barrels rather than steel drums.

 

But not petrol!

[Caley Jim]

This photo of Birmingham Windsor Street goods yard, scanned from an old HMRS Journal, shows a wide variety of loads.  Timber in various forms (including some sheeted), what look like bricks in the left foreground and sheeted loads in a variety of shapes .  Not sure what the white stuff in the meddle right is.  First thoughts were lime, but that would have to be sheeted to keep it dry.  Apologies for the quality of the scan.

 

 

Jim

[Andy Hayter]

Kevinlms

 

Indeed.  Liquid chemicals (and petrol would be considered as a chemical) would be transported in small metal containers and maybe as small as 1 pint - often rectangular - or glass carboys for volumes up to maybe 5 gallons  or glass jars/bottles for smaller volumes. 

 

Edited to add that some water based solutions might be held in wooden barrels, but most would be too aggressive or volatile to be held in wood

Edited August 21, 2015 by Andy Hayter

[Spitfire2865]

 Not sure what the white stuff in the meddle right is.  First thoughts were lime, but that would have to be sheeted to keep it dry.

 

Jim

Light Gravel? Crushed stone?

[Worsdell forever]

Go on someone, model this. 

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mr/lawleystreetgoodsyard/mrls949.jpg

[Worsdell forever]

Forth Banks Goods, Newcastle 1910. Mikkel, note the Quaker Oats box bottom left!

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36891793@N08/8725632145/sizes/h/

[Fat Controller]

Go on someone, model this. 

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mr/lawleystreetgoodsyard/mrls949.jpg

Looks like the 'Broccoli' has arrived from Cornwall; most of the wooden boxes look like the sort used to convey vegetables such as cabbages and cauliflowers, and are a style still to be seen today at market stalls and traditional greengrocers. 

[Clive Mortimore]

Didn't the GCR go through Sheffield? How about some steel products in open wagons, on bolsters etc.

[kevinlms]

Go on someone, model this. 

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mr/lawleystreetgoodsyard/mrls949.jpg

No trains, leave it to the horse modellers!

[webbcompound]

But not petrol!

Actually, yes petrol.. Large amounts transported in wooden barrels pre WW1

[richard i]

Forth Banks Goods, Newcastle 1910. Mikkel, note the Quaker Oats box bottom left!

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36891793@N08/8725632145/sizes/h/

I like the randomness of loads on the carts, that too is something I hope to achieve.

[Poggy1165]

Various castings, for example, were carried from the steelworks around Sheffield. However, you have to think about the weight, some of the things would break the back of an ordinary wagon. The GC (and Midland) had some pretty meaty specialist wagons for this traffic. I suppose small castings would be OK though, if you could figure out the appropriate chains and so on. The railways tended to photograph the great big oustanding loads (Lancashire boilers and the like) rather than small stuff. More impressive for publicity.

[corneliuslundie]

I am sure there are quite old photos of the cable works at Lydbrook Junction in various books, though can't remember if they show any cable drums.

 

Petrol for road vehicles was carried in cans for a long time, until pumps were installed at filling stations. I think they were a couple of gallons.

 

Broccoli from Cornwall is not of course broccoli but winter cauliflower, though I doubt if it would make much difference on a model. But don't forget the flower traffic from the same area and from the Scilly Isles, and the tomato and other traffic from the Channel Isles, both of which were rushed up to the markets in London and then distributed all over the place. They would go in vans I assume.

 

Rabbit traffic was also extensive before the First World War, usually carried in vans. And in the GWR South Wales WTT for I think 1915 there is mention of sausage traffic in the sausage season - which we worked out was the winter months.

 

In many parts of the country the local authority had a contract with a quarry for the supply of roadstone. It might be local or if there was no suitable stone it might come from some distance such as the Clee Hills.

 

Jonathan

[28XX]

Vegetables from the vale of Evesham were often carried in woven willow "chip" baskets. I have seen round ones about 15" diameter x 9" high and rectangular ones about 12" x 18". These would pre-date the sawn timber version comon in greengrocers until the 1980s.

[Clive Mortimore]

A long with Sheffield didn't the GCR also have stations in Lincolnshire where sacks of taters would be loaded into open wagons for that there Lundun and going the other direction to feed the mill workers in Manchester?  

 

Many items were carried in sacks stacked neatly in open wagons, some not sheeted.

[Western Star]

This photo of Birmingham Windsor Street goods yard, scanned from an old HMRS Journal, shows a wide variety of loads. 

 

B'ham Windsor St 1903.jpg

 

Jim

Which HMRS Journal contains this photo?

 

thank you, Graham Beare

[Caley Jim]

Which HMRS Journal contains this photo?

Sorry to take a wee while to reply, I had to hunt for it!

 

It is one of two in Vol.11 No.2, April - June 1982, pp 52-54.  This one is looking NW, the other looking NE.  The accompanying text identifies many of the wagons.  The 6 wagons on track 3, beyond the LNWR ones with round timber are not identified, but said to be carrying granite.  The photos are from 1903.

 

Jim

[Quarryscapes]

Sorry to take a wee while to reply, I had to hunt for it!

 

It is one of two in Vol.11 No.2, April - June 1982, pp 52-54.  This one is looking NW, the other looking NE.  The accompanying text identifies many of the wagons.  The 6 wagons on track 3, beyond the LNWR ones with round timber are not identified, but said to be carrying granite.  The photos are from 1903.

 

Jim

 

The wagon ahead of the LNWR timber laden pair appears to be a Cambrian  fixed side 2 plank wagon. 

[Penlan]

...... the LNWR timber laden pair ..... 

I'm surprised timber in that format would be loaded like that, there must be some weight on the end planking.

OK, I accept if it was all cut into planks there would be less volume, but the same weight (OK again, less the saw cut arisings),

But I'm still surprised.

In my post #150 (bottom of the page) at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107459-oxford-rail-announces-oo-gauge-4-plank-wagons/page-6 there's some metal scrap in the wagons, and what's that in the GCR wagon?

Edited August 6, 2016 by Penlan

[Poggy1165]

If you get hold of an Appendix (to the working timetable that is) of your railway, there are often pictures showing how loads should be loaded. (These often show some interesting wagons, the GC one certainly does, but that's a bonus.)  Hint - you can buy copies of a whole stack of pre-group Appendixes from the Signalling Record Society. Everyone should get (at least) their own line's.

 

Of course, the staff did not always follow the rules, and this often led to damaged wagons. The book of GWR Wagon Loads (by Jim Russell?) shows quite a few of these, all with foreign wagons. (Because of course the GW would never load anything incorrectly.   )

 

I have an idea that about 70-80% of loaded open goods wagons (as opposed to minerals) should actually be sheeted though. Which is a pain, because I find it hard to do convincingly. (Anyone can stick a sheet on a model wagon, but to get it to look like a real sheet on a real wagon is a lot harder.)

[BG John]

I have an idea that about 70-80% of loaded open goods wagons (as opposed to minerals) should actually be sheeted though. Which is a pain, because I find it hard to do convincingly. (Anyone can stick a sheet on a model wagon, but to get it to look like a real sheet on a real wagon is a lot harder.)

But think what you can get away with underneath. The way some tarpaulins were fitted you only need to detail and paint a small part of the bottom of the wagon body!

[Caley Jim]

The wagon ahead of the LNWR timber laden pair appears to be a Cambrian  fixed side 2 plank wagon. 

It's described as a Cambrian 3 plank wagon loaded with slates, but I agree that it looks more like a two plank to me (though I know nothing about the 'other' CR).

 

Jim