New Layout - 'Hufeisental'

[bgman]

Must agree with swisspeat, it seems that Train Controller will give you some interesting running too.

 

Well done so far Alan !

 

More please as and when eh ?

 

Grahame

[Alan Kettlewell]

This is superb Alan.

 

A great looking layout in the making.

 

The trains run very well, running smoothly over the crossover which says that you have done a good job of laying the track.

 

One almost feels its good enough without any scenery...

 

Thank you for sharing this with us.

 

Regards,

 

Peter

 

Hi Peter,

 

Glad you're enjoying it.  Early days yet and a lot to do.  This is all Peco 100 track and points, some of which I've used on 3 or 4 previous layouts.  If it wasn't for the fact I have about 300 yards of the stuff and about 100 turnouts, I would have bought new code 75 for this layout.   I've 'doctored' the turnouts quite a bit before laying by taking the springs out so they work better with Tortoise motors and I've trimmed away some of the excess bulky sleeper material around the tie bar area.  This improves their look a bit and of course they all get a good check over for smooth running. 

 

I agree it is interesting without scenery.  On previous layouts I've built I found I've had a tendency to get hooked on 'playing' a lot once the track is done.  This time around though I'm going to discipline myself and get on with the rest of it! 

 

As for scenery - a long way off yet of course as there's still the track work to lay and test on level 3.  Once I have that done, all ballasted and everything running nicely then I'll start on building some scenery.  For the scenery forming I'll probably use chicken fence wire over light ply formers for larger areas and for small areas I find cardboard formers are ok glued down with hot glue.  I've no idea how many bags of plaster I'll need to cover it all!  It's a large layout and I've been careful to avoid a common mistake of making parts that are out of reach.  One or two areas may need a bit of a stretch to do the scenery so I'll need to be careful how I go about it - just needs a bit of planning at that time.       

 

Anyway thanks for your interest and do keep watching.

 

Cheers

Alan

[Alan Kettlewell]

Must agree with swisspeat, it seems that Train Controller will give you some interesting running too.

 

Well done so far Alan !

 

More please as and when eh ?

 

Grahame

 

Your support appreciated Grahame, I'll certainly keep posting.  Not a lot to see just now as I'm doing the out of sight stuff continuing to wire up track feeds, turnouts and sensors.  I expect to make a start on construction of level 3 soon. 

Cheers

Alan

[Alan Kettlewell]

Today's task was fitting the turnouts to the level 2 storage yards. This yard will be hidden inside the mountain so I was able to surface mount the Tortoise motors which I find an easier task than mounting them from below and it's also easier for maintenance later on if one goes wrong. Also there's limited space between this level and the one below - about 20 cms - so it would be inconvenient to mount them underneath.

 

 

The motors are set back a distance from the turnout, so I use this stronger piano wire instead of the thinner wire supplied with the motors. Using the underlay under the tracks is handy too as it's easy to dig down into it enabling subtereanean work to be done - here I've shaped the wire so it comes up from below up through a hole I've drilled in the end of the tie on the turnout. I also take out the over-centre springs in these Peco turnouts. It works a treat.

 

 

The underlay is the type used for under laminate flooring. I find it's easy to fit, cheap and adds a level of sound absorption.

 

Tomorrow - more of the same!

 

Cheers

Alan

[Alan Kettlewell]

Just on with adding more turnouts and I thought it might be useful to show how to wire up Tortoise motors to a Lenz LS150 decoder.  A picture is often better than words, so they say.  Not wishing to insult anyone's intelligence so if you know how it works please ingore this.

 

You need a bunch of diodes - type 1n4001 are fine and cost less than £2 for 100 (eBay).   

Here's how I've done it ....

 

 

- quite simple really.

 

The other thing to do is set each of the outputs on the LS150 so the duration of pulse is long enough to throw the point.  I set it to 3 seconds which works fine - you'll need to consult the LS150 manual to see how's that's achieved.

 

Cheers ... Alan

Edited April 3, 2016 by Alan Kettlewell

[bgman]

Slow and steady does it Alan, you can insult my intelligence if you wish, may I ask the reason for the diodes to the Lenz decoder please.

As an aside there's a YouTube layout build on a similar theme where the guy has used some inset "modules" for the scenery to allow access for those "hard to reach areas". I'll look it up and get back to you. It's worth a look if only for a watch.

Also, you certainly fooled me with the code 100, I genuinely thought it was 75 ! . I agree with the modification to the turnouts much better IMHO.

 

Cheers for now

 

Grahame

[bgman]

Here's the link as promised, this is a series of his layout build, not too dissimilar to yours in size. If you look up "Siebwalde" on YouTube it may provide you with some entertainment in respect of his layout build.

Cheers

 

G

Edited April 3, 2016 by bgman

[bgman]

Grahame: in contrast to earlier Lenz decoders and a whole lot of other brands available, the LS150 doesn't put out a DC voltage, but the raw AC power from the inputs.

 

Alan: if you don't use the electrical contacts on the Tortoise, you should try the Mole instead. Much cheaper, and smaller too

Dutch Master - thank you I didn't realise that. I've gone down the route of using DCC Concepts AD8FX decoders for my stall motors.

I had some of their early motors and Tortoise mixed, wired straight off the main bus and all work flawlessly on my test layout as I'm learning prior to launching into the main build.

[Alan Kettlewell]

Grahame: in contrast to earlier Lenz decoders and a whole lot of other brands available, the LS150 doesn't put out a DC voltage, but the raw AC power from the inputs.

 

Alan: if you don't use the electrical contacts on the Tortoise, you should try the Mole instead. Much cheaper, and smaller too

 

They are interesting Dutch_Master - although a little late for me as I have already bought 4.5 dozen Tortoise motors!  Thanks anyway .. 

[RFS]

Grahame: in contrast to earlier Lenz decoders and a whole lot of other brands available, the LS150 doesn't put out a DC voltage, but the raw AC power from the inputs.

 

Alan: if you don't use the electrical contacts on the Tortoise, you should try the Mole instead. Much cheaper, and smaller too

 

The price of the mole is $12.95 in the US.  Import one to the UK you need to add 20% VAT which makes a total of $15.54 - about £11.  Plus you have to assemble it yourself, I believe, and there are no internal switches for frog polarity etc.  Tortoises can be bought for around £12.50 in the UK if purchased in packs of 6 or 12.

 

Both Alan and I are running automation with RR&Co. In this environment reliability is paramount, as the software is changing turnouts and won't know if one failed.  I'm quite happy to spend a little more to get the most reliable point motor, which is why I went for Tortoises. More than 70 in use for nearly 4 years and not a single failure.

[Alan Kettlewell]

Apologies for the silence but there's not a lot of progress to report lately as I've been spending time completing the 4 road storage yard on level 2 and testing.  This needs to be working perfectly before I proceed to build Level 3.  As the layout grows then the number of routes becomes more complex so I need to test out new schedules in train Controller to make sure everything works as it should.  I've also continued to complete track droppers and generally making sure the electrics are robust. 

 

A couple of locos have already lost their adhesion tyres - wear and tear is bound to be accelerated by the helixes on the layout.  So rather than buy new tyres I've been experimenting with 'Bullfrog Snot' (I know - lovely name innit!)  I'm not very good at applying it yet and made a bit of a mess at first - gunking up the brake shoes so I had to pick it off again to free up the wheels!  But it comes highly recommended so I'll persevere.  You have to set the wheels running and apply a small drop of the stuff with a cocktail stick so it forms an even tyre round the wheel.  Anyone on here familiar with this stuff?

 

I've had a few gremlins this last couple of days.  (They always show up don't they?)  First - a runaway train.  My EMU 'Talent 2' decided to race away at random and become uncontrollable without cutting the track power.  This EMU has ran perfectly up to now - it's a new Piko model fitted with sound  - a Uhlenbrock Intellisound decoder.  Also, and very weird - the loco will accept CV changes and behave on the programming track, it will also run fine in booster District 3.  But it doesn't play well at all in District 1 or 2, behaving erratically, sometimes not responding at all, random runaways and random sounds, lights come on and won't turn off.  I've checked and all 3 boosters are set with identical properties - very weird.  It also behaves on my test bench powered from a Roco Multimaus.

 

Second - a loco when running in District 1 on my layout, refuses to accept commands.  This loco just keeps going until it gets to another district even though I've stopped it.   This is a Roco BR01 4-6-2 fitted with a new Lenz Silver decoder.  I've fitted loads of Lenz Silvers and never had a problem with them. 

 

So I reckon the problem is to do with my power districts and for a solution I'm hanging my hat on fitting 'suppressors' across the ends of the track power bus.  This has been on my 'to do' list for a while and as it happens, I've just received the kit I need for this.  For anyone that doesn't know about this there's a lot written elsewhere on the forum so I won't go into a lot of details except to say that, following advice, I've bought in some 2W 150R resistors and 0.1uf Capacitors.  These were only a couple of quid to buy.  I'll be soldering one of each of these together and connecting them across the ends of each of the track bus 'arms' (or is that legs?)  I'm only following advice on good practice here so fingers crossed.

 

I'll report back with the results if anyone is interested.

 

Cheers ... Alan

[bgman]

Hi Alan,

 

Interesting reading the above.

 

Reference the traction tyre issues, I too have had the odd loco loose a tyre and tried the Bulfrog Snot which did take some time to apply.

Whilst it seemed to work I decided to replace my older stock ( which were acquired as secondhand locos ) with new traction tyres and although some can be difficult to access I'm tending to go down that route now.

 

One thought did cross my mind about this, I wonder if the larger exhibition layouts which are open to the public, have similar problems with constant running throughout the days, weeks etc on their locos ?

 

Wish I could help you regarding the other problems but I don't have any knowledge in those areas and it will be interesting to see how you arrive at a solution to hopefully sort this out.

 

Still very much enjoying your thread and that of the Z21 responses too.

 

Cheers

Grahame

[RFS]

 

 

Second - a loco when running in District 1 on my layout, refuses to accept commands.  This loco just keeps going until it gets to another district even though I've stopped it.   This is a Roco BR01 4-6-2 fitted with a new Lenz Silver decoder.  I've fitted loads of Lenz Silvers and never had a problem with them. 

 

 

 

Hi Alan - I've had similar issues with my 4 Bachmann 2-EPB units when fitted with Lenz Silver  21-pin decoders.  The problem was especially bad when running two of them as a consist.  Despite extensive investigation I could never trace the cause, and the problem happened all over the layout.  However, when fitted with different decoders there was no problem at all. For the last couple of years all 4 have been running with Hornby Sapphire decoders with no issues.  As part of my investigation I did remove capacitors from two of them (a right faff as you have to completely dismantle the motor coach) but it made no difference.

 

I also have a couple of 4-CEPs which will exhibit the same problem, albeit much less severe, but the problem can be bypassed by keeping their interior lights on. In fact it's not difficult at all to reproduce it. So these still have Lenz Silver decoders. 2 Kernow Thumpers and 2 MLVs do not have any problem with their Lenz decoders.  I believe the issue is due to something on the internal circuit board on the 2-EPBs and 4-CEPs that is perhaps causing interference on the DCC signal.

 

If you find a solution I'd really like to know!

[Alan Kettlewell]

So, an interesting day hunting down gremlins.  I've fitted the resistors and capacitors across each open end on my track power bus.  So far, so good.  The two locos mentioned above now appear to be behaving themselves - touch wood it'll stay that way.  I've noticed two things though since fitting them, that are different to previous

 

1) If a short happens then I can't restore power unless I switch off power to district 2.  Odd this as when I power it all up again, then switch district 2 back on, it's fine.  Hmmm... some more investigating required there. 

 

2) These resistors get hot!  I wasn't expecting that so I'll be keeping an eye on them.

 

Here are the items I used:

 

 

..a quick mock up ..

 

..and in place under the layout .. these are the ends to power district 1 and 2 ..

 

..and another ..

 

..and finally for anyone interested in seeing underneath my layout ..lol ..

 

 

Any day now it's going to be a big tidy up day and all the trains are going back in their boxes out of the way of all the mess I'll be making.  It's time to get my saw out and start work on the Level 3 track beds.  Onwards ..

 

Cheers... Alan

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi Alan - I've had similar issues with my 4 Bachmann 2-EPB units when fitted with Lenz Silver  21-pin decoders.  The problem was especially bad when running two of them as a consist.  Despite extensive investigation I could never trace the cause, and the problem happened all over the layout.  However, when fitted with different decoders there was no problem at all. For the last couple of years all 4 have been running with Hornby Sapphire decoders with no issues.  As part of my investigation I did remove capacitors from two of them (a right faff as you have to completely dismantle the motor coach) but it made no difference.

 

I also have a couple of 4-CEPs which will exhibit the same problem, albeit much less severe, but the problem can be bypassed by keeping their interior lights on. In fact it's not difficult at all to reproduce it. So these still have Lenz Silver decoders. 2 Kernow Thumpers and 2 MLVs do not have any problem with their Lenz decoders.  I believe the issue is due to something on the internal circuit board on the 2-EPBs and 4-CEPs that is perhaps causing interference on the DCC signal.

 

If you find a solution I'd really like to know!

 

I think I may have read this story elsewhere while I was searching around for answers to my issues.  You'll see by now my follow up post above - so far so good with capping off the ends of the power bus with resistors and capacitors.  I'll be keeping an eye on this and will report back.  For a few quid though maybe worth doing on yours ...

Cheers..Alan

[RFS]

I think I may have read this story elsewhere while I was searching around for answers to my issues.  You'll see by now my follow up post above - so far so good with capping off the ends of the power bus with resistors and capacitors.  I'll be keeping an eye on this and will report back.  For a few quid though maybe worth doing on yours ...

Cheers..Alan

 

I actually have these on all my bus ends - it hasn't helped.  Strange that only Lenz decoders are affected: I tried Bachmann basic first before deciding on Hornby Sapphire (I found a cheap supplier!) and neither the Bachmann nor the Sapphire had any problem.

[Alan Kettlewell]

I actually have these on all my bus ends - it hasn't helped.  Strange that only Lenz decoders are affected: I tried Bachmann basic first before deciding on Hornby Sapphire (I found a cheap supplier!) and neither the Bachmann nor the Sapphire had any problem.

 

Odd that.  I've always swore by Lenz chips ..

[Allegheny1600]

I actually have these on all my bus ends - it hasn't helped.  Strange that only Lenz decoders are affected: I tried Bachmann basic first before deciding on Hornby Sapphire (I found a cheap supplier!) and neither the Bachmann nor the Sapphire had any problem.

Howdy!

This sort of thing was something I noticed on my old digital test track layout.

I built it to prove to myself that I could cope with a digital system!

Anyway I had items of motive power that exhibited the above described symptoms and, short of changing out my beloved Lenz Silver decoders, I found that resoldering the track feeds to the affected areas made a big difference.

I was given this tip by a former electronics expert.

Apparently, if you blow on a soldered connection to cool it down quickly, the metal within the joint can crystallise and these crystals interrupt the digital signal, causing erratic behaviour.

If you remelt the joint and let it cool slowly, these crystals don't appear and the problem goes away.

Sorry if I'm trying to teach you to suck eggs, I have always claimed to be an electrical numpty!

Cheers,

John

[Alan Kettlewell]

Not a lot of progress to report since last time.  I've completed the two reversing loops on Level 1 which work perfectly.  These are fully isolated sections of course and are connected up to a couple of Lenz LK100s that I've used on previous layouts.  Other than that it's all testing just now before I can start on the construction of the level 3 track beds.  

 

Meanwhile I'm having another annoying attack of gremlins!  This week, while testing out some of the automated schedules I noticed one or two trains didn't stop at the station and just carried on right through.  On investigation I found that, in district 2 only (!), some locos just would not respond to commands to stop.  This only occurs in district 2 and only on some locos - not all!  If I turn the throttle (any throttle) to zero, the loco carries on running until it crosses into another district, then it comes to a stop.  Likewise lights and sound will not respond once it's running.  I can start a loco running in district 2 but then once running it disobeys any further command - weird!  

 

So today it's looking like I'll need to spend more time under the baseboards checking out droppers etc trying to find any possible causes for this weird occurrence.  I'll also remove the resistors and capacitors from the bus ends to see if that makes any difference.  It's very frustrating when you just want to move on!

 

Also I'm finding that if a short occurs, everything, including the Train Controller software, is freezing up and locking out.  The only way to recover is to close the programme using the Task Manager, then switch off power to the DCC system and then all back on.  Something isn't right somewhere and this only started happening after I'd fitted the resistors and capacitors across the ends of the power bus.  Sometimes I wonder if it's really worth following all the advice you read, and generally making the electrics as robust as possible, when all you get are problems.  More complexity = more problems.  On previous large OO layouts I've built I've not had separate power districts, no separate power feed to turnouts or accessories, no resistors across bus ends, no regard to whether the bus wires were twisted or not etc etc, and yet, all worked really well off a single 5amp Lenz LVZ100 unit.

 

Right, frustrated rant over, thanks for listening     - back to it.

 

Cheers .. Alan

[Dixie Dean]

Hi Alan, great thread and like everyone else, very envious of the space you have.  Could I ask you what radius and gradient you are using for your helix?  Also what range of radii are you using "in the open air"?

[RFS]

 

Meanwhile I'm having another annoying attack of gremlins!  This week, while testing out some of the automated schedules I noticed one or two trains didn't stop at the station and just carried on right through.  On investigation I found that, in district 2 only (!), some locos just would not respond to commands to stop.  This only occurs in district 2 and only on some locos - not all!  If I turn the throttle (any throttle) to zero, the loco carries on running until it crosses into another district, then it comes to a stop.  Likewise lights and sound will not respond once it's running.  I can start a loco running in district 2 but then once running it disobeys any further command - weird!  

 

So today it's looking like I'll need to spend more time under the baseboards checking out droppers etc trying to find any possible causes for this weird occurrence.  I'll also remove the resistors and capacitors from the bus ends to see if that makes any difference.  It's very frustrating when you just want to move on!

 

 Cheers .. Alan

 

Hi Alan - it might be worth raising this issue as a separate thread in the DCC Questions forum to get it to a wider audience.  I've certainly experienced the problem too and would dearly like to know the cause.  It seems to be related to Lenz decoders and it sounds as though they may be more sensitive to interference than others, but then I'm just guessing.

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi Alan - it might be worth raising this issue as a separate thread in the DCC Questions forum to get it to a wider audience.  I've certainly experienced the problem too and would dearly like to know the cause.  It seems to be related to Lenz decoders and it sounds as though they may be more sensitive to interference than others, but then I'm just guessing.

 

Yes good idea.  I've investigated some more since and still not really got a conclusive answer.  There are lots of DCC threads covering this sort of behaviour but they all seem to have different circumstances and of course - a thousand different answers or recommendations.  My issues though don't seem specifically related to any certain type of decoder.  My latest 'wobble' is on a loco with a Zimo sound chip fitted.  These chips are £85 so I hope I can resolve that one!

Cheers...Alan   

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi Alan, great thread and like everyone else, very envious of the space you have.  Could I ask you what radius and gradient you are using for your helix?  Also what range of radii are you using "in the open air"?

 

Hi Dixie,

 

I'm glad you're enjoying the thread.  

 

To work out the clearance between track beds in the helices I needed to consider catenary and pantograph height.  I should add that although I'll be installing catenary masts and wires, it won't be 'working' catenary - just for show - so I won't need any wires inside of tunnels or in hidden areas.  I intend to tie loco pantographs with fine fishing line so they do not spring up to full height when entering tunnels, so to allow for the pantographs I've set a minimum clearance between levels of 9cms. 

 

There are several helices on the layout.  Those that rise from level 1 up to level 2 are fairly generous at around 67cm minimum radius.  These are double track and will carry the layout maximum of 8 coach trains.    So, allowing my 9cms clearance plus the thickness of the baseboard, the track underlay and the height of the track itself, the overall rise per circle is around 10cm.  So, the larger helices work out at around 1 in 42. 

 

The helices (not built yet) that will rise from Level 2 up to Level 3 will be single track only and a tighter radius.  These will carry shorter trains with a maximum of 5 coaches.  I'm using Peco set-track radius 3 curves on these which are 101cm diameter.  These will need to rise by the same amount as the larger helices so of course gradients will be steeper at around 1 in 31.

 

Minimum radius 'in the open' I reckon is about 75cm.      

 

It took a bit of working out the helices gradients for which I have a spreadsheet full of data.  I quite like combining a bit of maths with the layout design and build - adds even more interest for me.

 

I'll shortly be starting on the helices up to level 3 and the level 3 trackbeds so I'll post my progress up on here of course.

 

Cheers... Alan   

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 in 31 on 50cm radius curves is going to put a lot of strain on the locomotives even with just 5 coaches. And what about freight trains?

[Alan Kettlewell]

1 in 31 on 50cm radius curves is going to put a lot of strain on the locomotives even with just 5 coaches. And what about freight trains?

 

That's why I've restricted level 3 to short trains only - just the way it's worked out due to space and design.  Freight trains will be as short as or shorter than 5 coaches in length.  I've considered restricting level 3 to steam or diesels so no need to factor in pantograph height.  Also I could sacrifice the extra thickness that the underlay takes up - all in all these would ease the gradient a bit.  On previous layouts I've made helices based around Peco set-track at the even smaller radius 2 inner and 3 outer, and 'got away' with a working height of under 7cms.  Steam locos struggled to pull even 5 coaches up these but diesels handled it very well.   It helps if you can arrange where possible that rising track is the outer track - therefore slightly easier gradient.   

Alan