BR Class 101

[kenw]

I am only asking this as the 101's have buffers on the inner ends, but did they have screw couplers by any chance?

 

Yes, it was screw couplings on the inner ends, and all other connections were identical as on the driving ends.

So it was even possible, and I believe, done on occasions, so add an additional car to a set by coupling it's inner end to a driving end -

eg adding another power car to a two-car set to form a three car

[Market65]

You can, hopefully, see in this photo' of a class 117 DMBS of the rear end, that the couplings are indeed indentical to those at the cab end. This enabled, for example, class 121 DTS's to couple up to the class 121 DMBS when required.

[/url]BR/Pressed Steel Class 117 Driving Motor Brake Second (DMBS) W51360 at Winchcombe by John Hague, on Flickr">http://BR/Pressed Steel Class 117 Driving Motor Brake Second (DMBS) W51360 at Winchcombe by John Hague, on Flickr

 

With regards,

 

Market65.

[LU_fan]

That is a very smart thing to do. Just one question about that though: as it does seem to be standard screw couplers, did it ever happen that standard coaches were coupled into a set of DMU's?

[Market65]

Vary rarely would a loco' hauled coach be coupled within a DMU set. However, for a short period of time in the early '60's, some WR class 119 Gloucester  Cross Country sets  were stengthened by using one ex-GWR Hawksworth  CK (composite corridor). This coach was painted DMU green with the cream stripes to match the class 119 livery. It was also given the wiring for the cab controls (any loco hauled coach would need the wiring for the cab controls adding, or the DMU could not be controlled by just the one driver). In addition, the brake pipes had to be altered, for DMU's used a two pipe braking system were as on a loco' hauled coach of any design, just one brake pipe was needed to work the vacuum brakes. So, in short, a bit of modification was needed, and a repaint. It did not happen very often!

 

With regards,

 

Market65.

[LU_fan]

Thank you very much for the explanation. This is all new to me.

[Market65]

Always happy to help.

 

With regards,

 

Market65.

[jonny777]

I have resurrected this thread because I was watching a 1980s railway video on Youtube the other day. The video was filmed at Peterborough and amongst the freight and passenger working was a Cravens dmu which had been rebuilt for parcels use with roller shutters etc., which left the station heading towards March and towing a Mk1 BG. I can't remember seeing this combination before. 

[ColinK]

Have you a link to the video?

[Market65]

That’s most interesting. I know of the Cravens class 105 parcels conversions, but I haven’t heard of such a set hauling a Mk1 BG before. But clearly it happened occasionally. So, yes please, a link to the video would be most helpful.

 

Best regards,

 

 Rob.

[russ p]

There was a job to saltburn until about the early 80s where 101s pulled a van there usually a BG or GUV.

The following train must have taken it back as the two remaining platforms then were just dead ends

[Mark Saunders]

19 minutes ago, russ p said:

There was a job to saltburn until about the early 80s where 101s pulled a van there usually a BG or GUV.

The following train must have taken it back as the two remaining platforms then were just dead ends

 

I remember in the mid 1970's there was a Newcastle to Berwick that had a tail load but my recollection was that it was a CCT.

 

There was still a table in the Sectional Appendix relating to tail loads for DMU's, all I recall is that it was for Power Twins only.

 

Mark Saunders

[SP Steve]

On 30/10/2019 at 12:11, Mark Saunders said:

 

I remember in the mid 1970's there was a Newcastle to Berwick that had a tail load but my recollection was that it was a CCT.

 

There was still a table in the Sectional Appendix relating to tail loads for DMU's, all I recall is that it was for Power Twins only.

 

Mark Saunders

 

This was the Western Region's take on such practice as of October 1974:

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by SP Steve

[Bernard Lamb]

I have just dug out the book by Stuart Mackay, BR First generation DMUs in Colour which contains several photographs with tail loads.

I was in contact with Stuart on a research topic some time ago and found him to be a very helpful chap.

1) Two ex GWR railcars with a filling of a  coach converted from loco hauled stock. All painted dark green.

2) Parcels unit in Royal Mail livery with 54280 in tow and a note about a 64t load. See last post re weight allowed.

3) Parcels Unit M55990 towing 2  four wheel vans.

4) GW Parcels Unit towing 3 four wheel vans and what looks like a BR CCT.

That is a fair selection to try and replicate in model form.

Bernard

 

[Markwj]

I seem to have a memory of a dmu hauling a van (4 wheeled like a vea I think) into Warrington central. Now my issue is I don't know if I dreamed it or not the dmu was all over blue I think?

 

So is this a likely occurrence or is my memory playing tricks would probably be 1970's.

[Fat Controller]

In the late 1960s/early 1970s, Up workings from Milford Haven to Swansea often had a van as tail traffic. This was normally a BR CCT, but other types were to be seen.  One working which seemed to happen occasionally, but not infrequently, was a Class 37, towing both unit and van. Whether this was because the unit had failed completely, or had one or more engines out, I couldn't say; certainly, you wouldn't want to send anything in less than top condition up Cockett Bank.

I have seen a photo of a train leaving Milford, where the tail load was not a van, but a 12t Pipe wagon, presumably with something from the armed forces.

There was an oddity in the London Division; a Class 116 suburban unit was formed with two GUVs instead of a centre car. Branded 'Railair Parcels' it worked from Paddington and Reading. In this case, the GUVs had be fitted with through cabling.

[Ramblin Rich]

There was a regular early morning DMU with a newspapers van tail load on the North Devon line to Barnstaple in the late 70s / early 80s. EDIT forgot I'd mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it was a few years ago!

A nice picture of a Swindon cross-country unit at Caersws on the Cambrian line in this thread

This would presumably have come up Tallerdigg!

Edited October 30, 2019 by Ramblin Rich
realised I'm repeating myself

[Steamysandy]

I believe that the class 100 Gloucester RCW units were banned from hauling tail traffic after an Edinburgh Area set had to be condemned with a stretched underframe having been thus used.

[flyingsignalman]

4 hours ago, Ramblin Rich said:

There was a regular early morning DMU with a newspapers van tail load on the North Devon line to Barnstaple in the late 70s / early 80s. EDIT forgot I'd mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it was a few years ago!

A nice picture of a Swindon cross-country unit at Caersws on the Cambrian line in this thread

This would presumably have come up Tallerdigg!

 

Here is a slightly better (hopefully) copy of my slide referred to in the quoted link. It was taken 14/5/1981

[Market65]

Here’s the instructions regarding tail traffic for DMU’s on the NER of BR. The information is from the North Eastern Region Sectional Appendix dated 1st October, 1960.  I hope it is of some interest.

 

 

Best regards,

 

 Rob.

[Halvarras]

A Class 118 3-car set with two 6-wheel milk tanks in tow heading west between Plymouth and Saltash was captured by local photographer Bernard Mills in 1968, it appeared in a very early issue of Traction (no 4 I think) - as interesting to me as the tail load was the unit's livery, I wasn't aware that any Class 118s carried blue with small yellow panels, and I still have no idea which one it was.

The image which really left me speechless can be found in the back pages of "Britain's Railways in Colour: BR Diesels in the 1960s and 1970s" (authored by Colin Maggs and mainly featuring the images of Reverend Alan Newman) where a pair of green 3-car cross-country units are seen towing a pair of maroon Mark 1 passenger coaches in the Bristol area - I'm pretty sure they were Swindon Class 120s with CK & SK but the book is inaccessible at the moment so I can't check. Quite a load, never seen anything like it before or since!

The through-wired Hawksworth coaches referred to by Market65 were W7254W, W7804W & W7813W, and I've seen it reported that they were eventually replaced by spare Class 101 (hey, back on topic!) centre trailers W59528/38/43 from the ER, although since these appear to have been used to strengthen Class 117s not 119s perhaps this was coincidental (these must have been the first 'short-frame' DMU vehicles the WR ever received).

The two through-wired GUVs used with Class 128 DPUs W55991/2 and stripped-out Class 116 DMBS W50819/62 & DMS W50872/915 on the Paddington - Reading parcels runs in the early-mid 1970s were W86174/572. Modelling such a 3-vehicle set has been an on/off idea for years, having had the required decals in stock for the past 4 decades plus, and having now gathered the necessary Heljan and Lima vehicles (with replacement wheels for the latter) for a total of just £86 it's very much on again!

 

Neil

[dvdlcs]

Interesting that a DM+DT pair could tow tail traffic (from SP Steves WR notes) as I was always under the impression that a 3-car DMU had to have a DM at either end - couldn't be formed DM-T-DT.

 

So you couldn't have DM+T+DT but you could have DM+DT+VAN? (Where VAN is BG/GUV/CCT/etc.)

[keefer]

you couldn't have DM+T+DT as that is basically the same as a DM+DT hauling around another coach (how much did DMU trailers weigh, 27-28 ton?)

According to the WR table, a DM+DT pair was allowed a max. of 12 ton tail-load on track between level & 1-in-50 i.e. less than the weight of a DMU trailer.

Notice this formation is the same as "2 power cars + trailer with 2 engines isolated.", which is not allowed a tail-load (and anyway would be taken out-of-service ASAP as it would struggle to maintain its basic timings.)

 

[keefer]

On 30/10/2019 at 17:29, Steamysandy said:

I believe that the class 100 Gloucester RCW units were banned from hauling tail traffic after an Edinburgh Area set had to be condemned with a stretched underframe having been thus used.

I thought that this may have applied to any DMUs branded 'lightweight' but I can't remember which classes these were - 105, 108? - but there are pics or other evidence of these being use with tail-loads.

What definitely did apply was the position of such units being hauled dead in a L/H train - they were to be placed to the rear so that there wasn't the weight of the rest of the train hanging off their drawbars.

(EDIT: the cl.100 were more lightweight than most, being built to a kind-of-integral construction, i.e. no traditional heavy steel underframe to take the longitudinal forces: https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-100/description (+ next 3 pages)

 

More about tail-loads at railcar.co.uk: https://www.railcar.co.uk/topic/tail-loads/?page=page-01

Edited October 31, 2019 by keefer

[russ p]

I seem to remember the north Yorkshire moors railway doing some kind of strengthening mod to their 100s so they could be used as hauled stock

[Fat Controller]

12 hours ago, keefer said:

I thought that this may have applied to any DMUs branded 'lightweight' but I can't remember which classes these were - 105, 108? - but there are pics or other evidence of these being use with tail-loads.

What definitely did apply was the position of such units being hauled dead in a L/H train - they were to be placed to the rear so that there wasn't the weight of the rest of the train hanging off their drawbars.

(EDIT: the cl.100 were more lightweight than most, being built to a kind-of-integral construction, i.e. no traditional heavy steel underframe to take the longitudinal forces: https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-100/description (+ next 3 pages)

 

More about tail-loads at railcar.co.uk: https://www.railcar.co.uk/topic/tail-loads/?page=page-01

A look at the Railcar Co UK site suggests the following as 'Lightweight' designs:-

The very early Metro-Cammell and Derby units, scrapped before TOPS, and never given a Class Number.

Gloucester Class 100

Park Royal Class 103

Derby Class 108

Wickham Class 109