P4 Q Class from PDK kit (go to p. 6)

[mightbe]

Hi all,

 

I've been considering trying my hand at kitbuilding a locomotive, and have some of the usual "n00b" questions.

 

1. Is it imperative that I try some wagon kits first, or is it possible to start with a locomotive (assuming the kit is designed well, goes together easily, and requires little or no modification)? I don't much care for the idea of building wagons or even coaches at this point; the RTR wagon offerings seem adequate in my eyes and most of the relevant coaching stock is available RTR (relevant to my interests, that is). I have minimal experience soldering brass (completely confined to musical instrument repair).

 

2. What materials? I'm very much drawn to brass kits over resin and especially whitemetal ones (which sometimes have this strange texture on the larger castings). But I suppose my question is this: is it practical to start with a brass kit, assuming little or no modifications are needed? Resin/brass kits seem somewhat attractive to me as well, inasmuch as the difficult areas of all-brass construction (primarily boiler-rolling) are supplanted by the castings. Whitemetal seems to be a scary beast to me--easily melted, easily bent, and sometimes poorly cast. I think I would prefer resin/brass or all-brass. 

 

3. The question of the exact kit. Locos that pique my interest are a Light Pacific in either original or rebuilt condition or a Maunsell mogul, either a U or an N class. I'm working in 4mm.

 

A Spam Can in my eyes could be a relatively easy way to start in all-brass, while the rebuilt version or the U/N might be a good introduction to resin/brass or maybe even whitemetal if someone can convince me to give it a go. 

 

What kits are available for any of the above that go together with little or no fuss and look decent? I'm only looking at kits that are still being produced and can ideally be purchased online. The kit needn't be hyper-detailed, just dimensionally accurate. I would prefer not to have to hunt down replacements for absolutely essential parts though (things like siderods, chimneys, domes, buffers etc.).

 

I've been meaning to get a start in P4 as well, so please advise me if any of these kits would be a hassle to convert.

 

So far I know of these:

-PDK makes kits for almost all the Bulleid Pacifics, in just about every variation imaginable. At the moment this is the favorite option.

-SE Finecast does some N class locos, but I don't understand what is meant by Bodyline or New/Revised. These kits seem to be primarily whitemetal

-DJH does the U and N class locos as well as the rebuilt light pacifics, but I've heard DJH is a bit dated and some of the chassis are uselessly clunky? I've also heard that DJH kits go together well.

 

Can anyone comment on any of these kits or point me to others?

 

And can anyone comment on which types of kits will fare best in the mail? If whitemetal or resin won't survive the transatlantic journey unscathed please say so. It would be utterly disappointing to order a kit,  open the box and see that the whitemetal boiler has not only bent out of shape but badly damaged the brass etches as well.

 

Quentin

[micknich2003]

I suggest you buy a kit of a "Basic" 0-6-0T or similar, and "Get on With It". We only learn by experiance, and "Having a Go". The best part of sixty years ago, I started modelling by cutting up "Shreaded Wheat" boxes, and making houses for my "Hornby 3 Rail". Give it a try, you will be surprised at what can be achived  by practise and determination.

[ColinK]

I'm building a 0 gauge class 02 diesel shunter kit. There is a thread on my very slow progress. But it is a good beginners kit.

[garethashenden]

Are you planning on going to P4 straight away or do you want to build something that can later be converted?

 

If you are going to P4 straight away I would start with some wagons. Etched underframes or w-irons and whitemetal castings for axleboxes, springs, and buffers. Get a couple of Parkside kits and replace everything below the solebars. This will be a good inexpensive way to experiment with compensation and springing, build a few wagons and try both.

 

You may want to consider a replacement chassis for a RTR locomotive. That's probably the next step after the wagons. On the other hand, if you want to jump in with a locomotive, go ahead.

[Horsetan]

...which types of kits will fare best in the mail? If whitemetal or resin won't survive the transatlantic journey unscathed please say so. It would be utterly disappointing to order a kit,  open the box and see that the whitemetal boiler has not only bent out of shape but badly damaged the brass etches as well....

Potentially, no kit will survive transatlantic mail if staff at either end are heavy-handed or trying to practice rugby /American football skills.

 

Why not get somebody to bring it over to you in their hand luggage?

[Spitfire2865]

Ive had no issue with overseas shipping if its packaged well.

Proper box with plenty of padding should suit anything unbuilt.

And most kit makers are very good with customer service. Something missing, something damaged, they will help you if asked nicely.

 

Although, going into loco building blind will only leave you frustrated. Build plastic wagons first. There are plenty of kits available which the RTR market has NEVER touched.

Once you get the basic ideas for how kits are designed to go together, then you can think of moving to metal, which is a whole different experience. Your mistakes can go from minor to extreme very quickly. Its easy to put solder on, but a frustrating task taking it back off.

A brass or nickel silver wagon kit would run you about £20 overall.

Much nicer to mess up a £20 wagon than a £250 loco kit(I included wheels, motor, and assorted bits into that price)

 

But Im not a cop, and there is no right way to model.

If youre dead set on locos as a first attempt, go in slower than a snail going backwards on a turtle going forwards.

And IMO, the difficulty in material goes

Resin

Whitemetal

Nickel silver

Brass

Scratchbuilding

 

And steer clear of locos with outside valve gear for a start.

My first loco was a Jinty, my second is now a Cauliflower.

Im working my way up to outside pistons, let alone valve gear.

 

Oh, and you never stated the era you were intending to model.

Sounds Southern, but could well be late BR for all we know.

[Kenton]

 

Scratchbuilding

 

That's a material I haven't tried but otherwise i would agree.

 

Wagons are cheap and if it all goes wrong it is no real loss. If it goes well then you will have learned a great deal and have something to test your track work at least.

 

P4 is a lot more challenging than 00 or even EM. In theory it shouldn't be as there is no compromise. unfortunately a mm out here or there (especially on the chassis) and the build can be a wreck. In addition to all the usual challenges you will have the issue of suspension/compensation to overcome.

 

As for problems in shipping, one kit supplier - Southwark Bridge Models (sadly Ivan Smith is now no longer with us) now part of Roxey - used to supply his kits between two layers of hardboard. Many (if not most) loco kits are supplied in boxes that should withstand the shipment.

 

Whatever you do start with a good kit that has a reputation as being buildable. Be wary of any on ebay - you have to ask yourself why are they being sold? (some are there from genuine over stocking, bought as part of the stash but no lifetime left to build them, or a change in modelling scale/era) but many are there because they represent a challenge too far.

[Gilloverland]

Not wanting to hijack this thread (I'm reading with interest ad would also like to try a kit) but can anyone briefly explain why P4 requires suspension / compensation when EM and 00 don't?

[Jol Wilkinson]

Not wanting to hijack this thread (I'm reading with interest ad would also like to try a kit) but can anyone briefly explain why P4 requires suspension / compensation when EM and 00 don't?

The perceived wisdom is that the finer flanges on P4 wheels need compensation/springing to keep them on the track. Well made and laid track will enable short wheelbase rigid wagons and coaches to run without problems.

 

Additional benefits of  compensation/springing are better current pick up, adhesion and a "smoother ride". 

 

I found it easier to build locos that ran well when I changed over to P4 from OO, because the discipline of using gauges, jigs, etc. to assemble chassis produced consistent and accurate results. 

[Guest Lyonesse]

Not wanting to hijack this thread (I'm reading with interest ad would also like to try a kit) but can anyone briefly explain why P4 requires suspension / compensation when EM and 00 don't?

The finer flanges ---allegedly.  But it's probably one of those things that everybody knows but for which there is surprisingly little evidence.  If you insist on switchback track then some compensation/springing is probably in order (whatever the gauge).  But people with well laid track have run trains without suspension and with few problems.

[mightbe]

Are you planning on going to P4 straight away or do you want to build something that can later be converted?

 

If you are going to P4 straight away I would start with some wagons. Etched underframes or w-irons and whitemetal castings for axleboxes, springs, and buffers. Get a couple of Parkside kits and replace everything below the solebars. This will be a good inexpensive way to experiment with compensation and springing, build a few wagons and try both.

 

You may want to consider a replacement chassis for a RTR locomotive. That's probably the next step after the wagons. On the other hand, if you want to jump in with a locomotive, go ahead.

 

I think that once I get to the point of building an entire locomotive I might as well build it to P4 rather than building a replacement chassis. I've considered replacement chassis for other locos. I'm not particularly impressed with the Hornby Bulleid pacifics (the finish, color, the details, and some of the more appalling compromises make it look like a poor bargain) and I've heard the Bachmann N class is a pig to convert (Disclaimer: I don't own either a Bachmann N class or a Hornby Bulleid). 

 

Potentially, no kit will survive transatlantic mail if staff at either end are heavy-handed or trying to practice rugby /American football skills.

 

Why not get somebody to bring it over to you in their hand luggage?

 

That would be a splendid, obvious solution. Unfortunately I have no ties to the UK, and must risk the mail.

 

Ive had no issue with overseas shipping if its packaged well.

Proper box with plenty of padding should suit anything unbuilt.

And most kit makers are very good with customer service. Something missing, something damaged, they will help you if asked nicely.

 

Although, going into loco building blind will only leave you frustrated. Build plastic wagons first. There are plenty of kits available which the RTR market has NEVER touched.

Once you get the basic ideas for how kits are designed to go together, then you can think of moving to metal, which is a whole different experience. Your mistakes can go from minor to extreme very quickly. Its easy to put solder on, but a frustrating task taking it back off.

A brass or nickel silver wagon kit would run you about £20 overall.

Much nicer to mess up a £20 wagon than a £250 loco kit(I included wheels, motor, and assorted bits into that price)

 

But Im not a cop, and there is no right way to model.

If youre dead set on locos as a first attempt, go in slower than a snail going backwards on a turtle going forwards.

And IMO, the difficulty in material goes

Resin

Whitemetal

Nickel silver

Brass

Scratchbuilding

 

And steer clear of locos with outside valve gear for a start.

My first loco was a Jinty, my second is now a Cauliflower.

Im working my way up to outside pistons, let alone valve gear.

 

Oh, and you never stated the era you were intending to model.

Sounds Southern, but could well be late BR for all we know.

 

Which kit makers/sellers generously pad their kits?

 

I'll look into wagon kits with metal components. I have soldered other metals before, just never anything approaching the complexity of rolling stock. Trying to solder steel was an... interesting.. experience. Nothing like soldering trumpets AT ALL. Then again, the frustration trip with steel was with an older soldering gun and now I have a new one with adjustable wattage.

 

The era is early-to-mid-1960s, but I'm not sure how this is a major consideration as each of the four locomotives I've mentioned fit this era?

 

  That's a material I haven't tried but otherwise i would agree.

 

Wagons are cheap and if it all goes wrong it is no real loss. If it goes well then you will have learned a great deal and have something to test your track work at least.

 

P4 is a lot more challenging than 00 or even EM. In theory it shouldn't be as there is no compromise. unfortunately a mm out here or there (especially on the chassis) and the build can be a wreck. In addition to all the usual challenges you will have the issue of suspension/compensation to overcome.

 

As for problems in shipping, one kit supplier - Southwark Bridge Models (sadly Ivan Smith is now no longer with us) now part of Roxey - used to supply his kits between two layers of hardboard. Many (if not most) loco kits are supplied in boxes that should withstand the shipment.

 

Whatever you do start with a good kit that has a reputation as being buildable. Be wary of any on ebay - you have to ask yourself why are they being sold? (some are there from genuine over stocking, bought as part of the stash but no lifetime left to build them, or a change in modelling scale/era) but many are there because they represent a challenge too far.

 

The few scraps I've gathered on the PDK/Crownline models have said that many of their chassis have suspension/compensation included. What exactly this amounts to I have no idea. 

 

As to the issue of compensation and springing and all that lark, it seems like if the trackwork is up to par you won't *need* it, it will just make life a lot easier (though I know of one fine P4 modeller who doesn't compensate a thing). One of the reasons I'm considering jumping straight from 00SF to P4 is that if I find I can't make the crossings and blades up to snuff, machined versions can be purchased. One of the other reasons is that I've heard that EM can be particularly difficult when side rods are involved, and that the wheel faces are only a tiny bit farther out in P4 than in 00, while the EM wheel faces are even further out than P4. 

 

Before I jump into things and make a few purchases, does anybody have anything to say about the PDK pacifics? Especially the rebuilt ones, which have a resin body. Even if I don't buy/build it first I'd like to know what my money gets me on those.

 

Quentin

[Horsetan]

It sounds, Quentin, like you could do worse than book a holiday in Britain to coincide with a finescale show such as Scaleforum. Oddly enough, Scaleforum (the annual showcase for P4) takes place towards the end of September, so you've still got time to come over here and see P4 at work, as well as see, examine and buy kits to take home with you.

 

What's not to like?

 

Also, PDK kits can be built in P4 but are not designed with that aim in mind. Valve gear is a bit on the crude side as well, and you've already made it abundantly clear that you're a no-compromise, all-or-nothing kinda guy.

[mightbe]

That sounds like a hell of plan.  *is now taking donations* 

 

I'm not sure that I'm an all-or-nothing person (though I certainly like doing things right rather than fast), there's just some desire to know if I could come up with a result that is more pleasing to me than the RTR offering. I'd probably be quite satisfied by a relatively basic model detail-wise, so long as the 'basics' are right, which includes the wheels in my book. I think I take a pretty holistic stance. Some things can be omitted and I'd probably never notice, but if the wheels are in the wrong place the model will always be a bit 'off'. IMO, some very attractive locos look quite bizarre in 00 because the wheels are so far back (e.g., LSWR O2), while EM locos can draw undue attention to the flange despite otherwise looking pretty good. P4 solves both problems. I say when a model looks right it's right--any further details be damned.

 

With the amount of modification required to produce a cohesive model I feel like I'd be just as well off to start from a more 'flexible' state. That way if I want to improve on it, I don't have to undo somebody else's work first.

 

I think I'd rather try to build my own, probably underdetailed, model rather than start an enormous project by invalidating a warranty, it's just a matter of 'how'.

 

Quentin

[Guy Rixon]

If you can solder well already, then you should be able to build a good locomotive kit in brass without needing to practice on wagons and coaches. Conversely, a bad, etched loco-kit will give you grief however much you've practiced.

 

Given an etched kit where all the parts are the right size and the design is sane, the hard part is bending complex curves: this is where one can convert "everything just fits" into "nothing fits" by getting radii wrong. Therefore, I would suggest, for a first exercise, not an air-smoothed pacific. Probably not a diesel or electric loco either: they are why God made resin.

 

Another tricky part is outside valve-gear. There are a lot of joints that have to work well to avoid binding. Therefore, first time, perhaps not a rebuilt pacific ether. But you might find that aspect easy; many do.

 

You probably need some freight locos, so why not an inside cylindered 0-6-0 for the first attempt (as Cyril Freezer used to recommend)? You might do the first one in OO, with a rigid suspension for simplicity. If it works, you can use it immediately, then sell it on eBay if you don't want to build a new chassis for P4.

 

Whitemetal, BTW, is not problematic provided that the casting is of good quality. You can glue whitemetal kits with epoxy if you don't want to solder them.

[dmurrell]

If you are serious about going P4 from the start, and IMHO there is no reason not to, then I would suggest doing a couple of simpler RTR conversions using etched chassis kits such as those from Comet eg 0-6-0 such as a Terrier, or a Brassmasters "Easichas" conversion, eg the Wainwright class C if you're looking at Southern prototypes. I have only one PDK kit, a 42xx as yet unbuilt, and I would suggest it's not a great place to start in P4! The chassis will largely have to be scratchbuilt, possibly using the existing frames.

 

I have been getting kits and other stuff shipped overseas from the UK since 1987 and have never had anything damaged in the post. Perhaps I've just been lucky.That's not to say some items weren't a little dodgy prior to going into the postal system...

 

David.

[Horsetan]

Why not start as you mean to go on?

[Guest Lyonesse]

Why not start as you mean to go on?

OTOH, you can never have too many of these: http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/4F.htm

 

And Brassmasters will be reproducing the Finney kits soon, which whilst complex, do at least fit together.

[Horsetan]

Apart from the complete irrelevance of posts 16 and 17,....

 

Irrelevant to you, perhaps, but not necessarily to the OP, who has already stated his intentions from the get-go.

[Guy Rixon]

 

-SE Finecast does some N class locos, but I don't understand what is meant by Bodyline or New/Revised. These kits seem to be primarily whitemetal

 

Decades ago, when the SE Finecast kits were marketed as Wills, they had cast whitemetal chassis-blocks. These are now completely out of fashion. Some of the SEF kits have been refurbished with etched chassis and for the others they only sell the body parts, hence "bodyline". I think the bodywork in both categories is all whitemetal.

[Horsetan]

Decades ago, when the SE Finecast kits were marketed as Wills, they had cast whitemetal chassis-blocks. .....

....or were designed to fit on the contemporary RTR chassis of that era.

 

So if you think Hornby's current generation of Bulleid Pacifics isn't up to the standards that you want, you really ought to see what was available before they came to market.....

[sjp23480]

Quentin,

 

Many years ago I built a couple of Keyser kits with limited success, I then struggled with a DJH kit for a Clan Pacific, eventually setting it aside because I did not feel able to complete a satisfactory working model. Looking for guidance I invested in several books on kit building, including those by Wild Swan and Silver Link but producing a smooth working model chassis evaded me.

 

I then came across the first two DVDs from the recently defunct Right Track media as presented by Tony Wright (of this manor). These productions were a revelation and I have subsequently managed to complete the DJH Clan, although Hornby released their version rendering my efforts redundant. I also have a number of other projects in flight or waiting my attention.

 

I would wholeheartedly recommend these productions to you to help you understand the basics of building a loco into a workable model. Samples are available on YouTube, sorry embedding a link evades me at the moment!

 

Steve

[mightbe]

....or were designed to fit on the contemporary RTR chassis of that era.

 

So if you think Hornby's current generation of Bulleid Pacifics isn't up to the standards that you want, you really ought to see what was available before they came to market.....

 

Perhaps you miss my point--The Hornby Bulleid Pacifics are wonderful models, IF you are content with 00 and want to run them on settrack. Any flaw that 'counts' stems from these two compromises (neither of which I can bring myself to accept, sorry). 

 

Models look so much better when everything is in proportion. If the wheels are too far back, that is a matter of proportion; the gauge disagrees with the scale. At the proper gauge you may as well go for prototypical track, so EM seems like a waste of opportunity to me. If something gives the impression of being right, it basically is right, and I'm content with the impression. The Hornby Bulleids immediately give a very poor impression because the wheels are simply in the wrong place, and I can't get past the look of it (it also guarantees concomitant disappointment with the trackwork). But, if you want to put the wheels out to the right place you have a lot of work ahead of you trying to make a cohesively detailed model. Everything underneath should match what's on top. If it doesn't, it leaves one feeling uneasy.

 

I'd just like to actually have a go and make something that sits well in my stomach. I'm not a rivet-counter. I couldn't care less; but some things are non-negotiable. It has to look tidy and crisp, the major components have to be the right size, shape, and be in the right place (I include wheels here). Beyond that, I see things impressionistically.

 

Quentin,

 

Many years ago I built a couple of Keyser kits with limited success, I then struggled with a DJH kit for a Clan Pacific, eventually setting it aside because I did not feel able to complete a satisfactory working model. Looking for guidance I invested in several books on kit building, including those by Wild Swan and Silver Link but producing a smooth working model chassis evaded me.

 

I then came across the first two DVDs from the recently defunct Right Track media as presented by Tony Wright (of this manor). These productions were a revelation and I have subsequently managed to complete the DJH Clan, although Hornby released their version rendering my efforts redundant. I also have a number of other projects in flight or waiting my attention.

 

I would wholeheartedly recommend these productions to you to help you understand the basics of building a loco into a workable model. Samples are available on YouTube, sorry embedding a link evades me at the moment!

 

Steve

 

Thank you very much. I will certainly hunt down these clips and hopefully find more from that source. 

 

Quentin

[hayfield]

Quentin

 

I may have missed something, but what era and region are you interested in ?

 

You may well be correct about EM gauge but Pendon uses it, if Markit wheels are a bit wide why not try Gibson or Slaters. Preformed common crossings are available in EM as well as P4, though the Exactoscale P4 kits are very nice indeed, anyway pre-made EM & P4 turnouts will be available shortly from C&L

 

Back to locos, once you answer the question you may get some specific suggestions. I would have a go with rolling stock first, if only to hone skills and try a few things, you will need them anyway

[mightbe]

Southern Region, BR, early/mid 1960s.

 

I'll take any and all suggestions for locomotive kits that fit these criteria, provided the kits are designed well and are relatively easy (though if it's between two kits of equal difficulty and quality, I'd pick based on aesthetics). My hope is that the locos I've named are popular enough that there are several manufacturers for them, one of which is hopefully within my abilities.

 

What I'll probably do is make a few wagons first; even though my heart probably won't be in it.

 

I was planning on Gibsons either way. Sadly Ultrascale doesn't do the BFB wheels. EM is certainly within my grasp from a track standpoint--I've been building in 00SF (link in signature; project stalled indefinitely). I haven't *totally* ruled EM out, but since I don't have ANYTHING for either P4 or EM (no gauges, stock, wheels etc) I might as well go all the way and get to the next level of fineness. What would turn me to EM would be if compensation just was not accommodated for in the kit. If it included hornblocks I might try to work with continuous springy beam compensation/suspension (I forget which one it is) but it would be beyond my capabilities to just figure out compensation on the fly and build it from scratch.

 

Quentin

[Horsetan]

...Sadly Ultrascale doesn't do the BFB wheels. ...

They do produce the 3'1" BFB bogie wheels, but that's all. Some tooling work was done to prepare for the 3'7" wheel (I've seen it), and they have drawings for the 6'2" driver, but I think it unlikely now that new wheels will make it into production this side of 2020. Same goes for the BR Standard wheels for Classes 6/7/8 and 9F.

 

David Rogers is a one-man band. He makes everything himself, and it's just him in that workshop. If he's got six months' worth of normal orders to turn out, plus private customer commissions (serious money required), all by himself, there simply isn't the time to devote to new stuff. It's not physically possible unless he becomes an insomniac....or a zombie.