Bachmann announce Class 117 and Class 121 at Collectors Club event

[dibber25]

1 hour ago, Geep7 said:

And i've succumbed and ordered a Green liveried set to run alongside my father's steam era stock. Very much swayed by a photograph in 'Diesels on the Southern' of a set at my local station in that livery. I was extremely tempted to order a Blue & Grey set as I remember seeing them daily, and in NSE, but it's so far outside of my era of modelling it probably would just sit in the box. I shall have to wait for an all blue set to appear as well, and maybe a Green with SYP as well.....

 

It will be interesting to compare the Bachmann model with my modified and detailed LIma Class 117. I think it will be almost like comparing chalk and cheese, but we'll see.

I've had a Lima conversion half-done for about 15 years. It only needs the paintwork completing and a possible swap of the old Lima chassis for a modern Hornby one. Still trying to decide whether to complete it now or simply try to sell it as it is. (CJL)

[Geep7]

15 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

I've had a Lima conversion half-done for about 15 years. It only needs the paintwork completing and a possible swap of the old Lima chassis for a modern Hornby one. Still trying to decide whether to complete it now or simply try to sell it as it is. 

Yes, mine needs a chassis swap too, even though I've fitted one of those CD motors. I am having same dilemma too about whether to sell mine, although my Lima one is in blue, so would have to wait for the blue one to be released first.

[John Tomlinson]

On 01/07/2020 at 10:57, The Stationmaster said:

Going slightly OT I really wish that photographer would caption his photos correctly.  He hasn't got the name of the location correct (it is Ruscombe, complete with Ruscombe church visible in the background, barely half a mile in a straight line, Waltham St Lawrence is over 2 miles away and isn't a railway location in any sense of the word).  If photographers can't get location details correct I'm sometimes left wondering about the accuracy of other detail in their caption and he has got book captions wrong in the past.

 

Regrettably this particular photographer, while taking some excellent quality photos  seems to make a habit of not getting location details right, especially in that area.

FWIW I've always known this location as Ruscombe, and assumed it to be Ruscombe loop. The shot referenced by Hondawanderer is taken with a  long lens, and so has pulled in the village and church tower quite considerably. The bridge seen in the background is also one that was widely used for photography, and I've attached a picture that shows Ruscombe bridge as used for the 117 shot in the distance, so looking east with a westbound freight.

 

The Waltham reference may have come from the thought of White Waltham airfield, situated to the east of where the shot is taken, and providing of entertainment to railway photters in the area at quiet times.

 

John.

[John Tomlinson]

On 09/07/2020 at 23:55, Taigatrommel said:

Whatever the railway term for it, this is the approach to the bridge...

This might well be a location that could be used for pics before the wires went up, but it isn't where "Hondawanderer" took his shot of the 117. Suspect this is a couple of miles east, and Milley Lane isn't the same as Milley Bridge unless its a Google error.

 

John.

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by John Tomlinson
typo

[Pteremy]

2 hours ago, Geep7 said:

 

That's pretty much it, although according to railcar.co.uk in the green livery, the whisker shape was slightly different. Also, apart from the first few sets delivered, I think marker lights were added from new.

I think that earlier in this thread - if not, on a prototype related thread on RMWeb - it was mentioned that the first 4 117 sets actually had domed headcode boxes. The Railcar website has photos showing this, for example 51334 from the 3rd set:

 

https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/101/?id=101

 

In some photos the doomed head code boxes have very obviously rivetted/studded rims where the box was attached to the roof, rather like the Derby built class 127s. For example see 51374 (from the 1st set) in May 1961 on page 76 of Kevin Robertson's First Generation DMUs, where the weathering to the white cab roof shows this well.

[Pteremy]

14 hours ago, dibber25 said:

So I'm betting that the factory spec was red buffer beams and that's what Bachmann copied, but that the Western Region painted them black before they went in to traffic. I'll be painting mine black in due course. (CJL)

 

Whether or not the buffer beams are correct for use in traffic Bachmann appear to have got the lining right. The green whiskered set is numbered as Southall set SHL308 51349/51391/59501. Thanks again to the Railcar site this would have been the '18th set', delivered summer 1960, by which time lining was applied from new.

 

I think that I will be keeping the red buffer beams, on the rule 1 assumption that some were rushed into use without blackening.

[Pteremy]

37 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

This might well be a location that could be used for pics before the wires went up, but it isn't where "Hondawanderer" took his shot of the 117. Suspect this is a couple of miles east, and Milley Lane isn't the same as Milley Bridge unless its a Google error.

 

John.

 

I don't think this is right. The OS map shows a dog legged field boundary west of Milley Bridge, just as in the photo. It also shows Milley lane running to the north of the bridge, and Milley Road to the south.

 

Truth is both posters are right. The railway terminology is quite logical, because the infrastructure has spread east from Ruscombe. But geographically the railway has always been 'passing' Waltham St Lawrence (to the south east). If the prominent signs for 'Waltham St Lawrence' were at the bridge when the photo was taken you can understand why that was given as the location.

[John Tomlinson]

44 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

I don't think this is right. The OS map shows a dog legged field boundary west of Milley Bridge, just as in the photo. It also shows Milley lane running to the north of the bridge, and Milley Road to the south.

 

Truth is both posters are right. The railway terminology is quite logical, because the infrastructure has spread east from Ruscombe. But geographically the railway has always been 'passing' Waltham St Lawrence (to the south east). If the prominent signs for 'Waltham St Lawrence' were at the bridge when the photo was taken you can understand why that was given as the location.

I've just dug out my OS map and you are right. What threw me is that the picture shown by Taigatrommel is from the northwest, looking southeast, so given the shadow it must be a late afternoon/  early evening effort - I'd assumed it to be the other way. Apologies to Taigatrommel also.

 

John.

[dibber25]

I pray to never hear the words Ruscombe or Waltham St flipping Lawrence ever again. At least not in a thread that's supposed to be about the Bachmann 117!! (CJL)

[Pteremy]

3 hours ago, dibber25 said:

I pray to never hear the words Ruscombe or Waltham St flipping Lawrence ever again. At least not in a thread that's supposed to be about the Bachmann 117!! (CJL)

And yet the exchanges illustrate something about different perspectives, and a desire to get to a better understanding of 'the truth'.  I have learnt something about the GWR/WR mainline, and something about geography. Personally I would not be so dismissive of the diversion from the main subject of the thread.

[Gwiwer]

21 hours ago, dibber25 said:

So I'm betting that the factory spec was red buffer beams and that's what Bachmann copied, but that the Western Region painted them black before they went in to traffic. I'll be painting mine black in due course. (CJL)

Sounds like a plan.

[dibber25]

4 hours ago, Pteremy said:

And yet the exchanges illustrate something about different perspectives, and a desire to get to a better understanding of 'the truth'.  I have learnt something about the GWR/WR mainline, and something about geography. Personally I would not be so dismissive of the diversion from the main subject of the thread.

It was intended to be light-hearted. (CJL)

[NIK]

19 hours ago, Pteremy said:

I think that earlier in this thread - if not, on a prototype related thread on RMWeb - it was mentioned that the first 4 117 sets actually had domed headcode boxes. The Railcar website has photos showing this, for example 51334 from the 3rd set:

 

https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/101/?id=101

 

In some photos the doomed head code boxes have very obviously rivetted/studded rims where the box was attached to the roof, rather like the Derby built class 127s. For example see 51374 (from the 1st set) in May 1961 on page 76 of Kevin Robertson's First Generation DMUs, where the weathering to the white cab roof shows this well.

Hi,

 

So maybe the Lima 117 with its domed headcode box wasn't as inaccurate as thought at the time (more a model of small subset class)?.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, dibber25 said:

I've had a Lima conversion half-done for about 15 years. It only needs the paintwork completing and a possible swap of the old Lima chassis for a modern Hornby one. Still trying to decide whether to complete it now or simply try to sell it as it is. (CJL)

A candidate for unlined green perhaps?

 

As far as i can recall the intermediate buffer beans were red but don't forget what the red was like on these sets - see my photo posted previously which shows a very low mileage set with the white lettering very clearly visible on the bufferbeam.  The red was more like an undercoat than a final gloss coat so not a 'bright bufferbeam red' colour.   Whether all the sets and SPCs came out like that I'm not sure and I think the SPC bufferbeams were more noticeably red - somewhere I have b&w photo Tony Smith took of a fairly new SPC at Twyford and that might show the difference - if I can ever find it.

 

One thing which did happen was that bufferbeams were repainted with gloss red, probably at depots, and I doubt anything other than the end beams were so treated.

[Pteremy]

1 hour ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

So maybe the Lima 117 with its domed headcode box wasn't as inaccurate as thought at the time (more a model of small subset class)?.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

Well I have a blue 3 car set which includes 51332 and 51334, for which domes would be accurate (albeit you would not have expected both numbers in the same set). But I also have a green 3 car set which does not have appropriate numbers.

 

Comparing the Lima with Bachmann reminded me that Lima had not done a bad job on the underframe detail, albeit in simplified form. But you get 2020 performance from the Bachmann mechanism, assisted by the electrical pick up from all three coaches

[pheaton]

2 hours ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

So maybe the Lima 117 with its domed headcode box wasn't as inaccurate as thought at the time (more a model of small subset class)?.

 

Regards

 

Nick

I thought the issue with the lima one was more that it was underscale rather than the wrong shape?

 

edit..damn Mac spell checker

Edited July 14, 2020 by pheaton

[NIK]

9 minutes ago, pheaton said:

I thought the issue with the lima one was more that it was underscore rather than the wrong shape?

Hi,

 

The Lima version  looks curved like a Class 118 or the four Class 117s with domed headcode boxes.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Legend]

Isn't the head code box on a LIMA 117 a bit undersized too?

[BR Blue]

12 minutes ago, Legend said:

Isn't the head code box on a LIMA 117 a bit undersized too?

That is my recollection too.

[wombatofludham]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

As far as i can recall the intermediate buffer beans were red

So that's why they gained the nickname "f@rtcarts"

[Pteremy]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

Isn't the head code box on a LIMA 117 a bit undersized too?

Yes it is.

[89A]

Maybe they were trying to make it look more like a 116.

[John Tomlinson]

On 01/07/2020 at 11:32, dibber25 said:

Staying off topic for a further moment, I'm afraid that some (perhaps even 'many') photographers didn't care particularly about the details, their priority was the picture. For every one who logged all the details in his notebook (Casserley, Mensing etc) there was one who didn't. The great George Heiron was one of the worst - his 'captions' often just a poetic "such and such talks to the sky" (which you could see from the picture anyway, and nothing about when, where or what it was. Then, there were those who gave a location as St. Hilda's crossing or such - somewhere that's not on any railway map and with no clue what line it was on, never mind between which stations. Figuring that out was one of the challenges of being an editor. But to return to the 117s, my memories of the early 1960s are that some Pressed Steels (they weren't 117s until much later) had marker lights and lining and some didn't. The dark green became dull and drab very quickly and the satin finish on the Bachmann model is very much ex-works, new. I'm sure I've posted this before, but here's one in absolutely original condition - no lights, no lining, and the roof dome is cream - a perfect match to the station valancing. It might be white that's discoloured, of course, but it's cream, nevertheless. Doesn't make quite such an attractive proposition as the later, lined and lights, version depicted by Bachmann. And, so far, I still haven't been able to find out if Bachmann's red inner buffer beams are correct or not. (CJL)

At risk of perpetrating "off topic", that really is an excellent and valuable picture, not only does it show an early example wthout lining, but even alllowing for an vagaries of film and processing, makes clear that it isn't in the early style of lighter DMU green. Anyone brave enough to take their £300 immaculate model and turn it into this?

 

John.

 

P.S. good guide to the seat colour as well.

Edited July 14, 2020 by John Tomlinson
added P.S.

[Rich Papper]

3 hours ago, Legend said:

Isn't the head code box on a LIMA 117 a bit undersized too?

 

A selection for comparison / debate.

 

From left to right: original Lima 117, my attempt at making the Lima 117 a bit bigger and squarer, the Lima 121,and the Bachmann 121.

 

The Bachmann is a fraction taller than the Lima 121, but the biggest difference is its width. I'm still waiting for the NSE 117, but I don't think I'll get rid of all the Lima variants yet. I'm used to the discrepancies as I've been looking at them longer than I was looking at the real thing!

Rich

[dibber25]

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

At risk of perpetrating "off topic", that really is an excellent and valuable picture, not only does it show an early example wthout lining, but even alllowing for an vagaries of film and processing, makes clear that it isn't in the early style of lighter DMU green. Anyone brave enough to take their £300 immaculate model and turn it into this?

 

John.

 

P.S. good guide to the seat colour as well.

The Bachmann model is not in the early light green. It's in this dark green shade and its pretty accurate to my eye. It's just rather shiny - like a brand-new unit rather than the dull, flat dark green of the unit in my photo. As far as units on the WR were concerned, all the London area suburban units (so all the Pressed Steels) dating from 1960 and after were dark green. The only light green units were 1958-built Gloucester CC units used on the fast Oxfords, and the Gloucester-built singles (Class 122) which left the area as soon as the Class 121s arrived. Further out from London, the Derby units (Class 116) could be found in both dark and light green, often mixed in the same 3-car unit. (CJL)