LMS/LNER Coal Depots in South London

[Nearholmer]

Folks

 

I'm attempting to get clear in my head a picture of the big "foreign" coal depots in South London, and the train services to them, ideally pre-grouping and SR period,rather than BR period.

 

So far I have:

 

Walworth Road - Midland

Brockley Lane - GNR

Peckham Rye - ????

Hither Green - GNR

Brixton(?) - LNWR(?)

Elephant & Castle - GNR(?)

 

Some of these were "flat" yards, but Walworth Road was a huge elevated thing with "shoots", and E&C I think a smaller elevated one with "shoots".

 

I am fairly sure that Hither Green was served by GNR trains from Ferme Park via Snow Hill (didn't the GNR have 0-8-2T for this?).

 

Brockley Lane ditto, I think.

 

Also, I'm fairly sure that Midland trains ran direct from Brent to Walworth Road.

 

But, you can see that I still have a lot of question marks, and there would be even more if I added in questions about motive power.

 

This little lot could make a lot of excuses for very interesting trains on model railways, and I've never seen them discussed in that context before.

 

Can anyone offer knowledge?

 

There was also a Midland Railway coal depot at Maidstone, but surely Midland locos didn't schlepp all the way down there!?

 

EDIT: panic over chaps, I found the other thread about this topic, and Edwin Course's brilliant article. I will attempt to tabulate/summarise at some point. A very interesting topic!

Edited September 9, 2015 by Nearholmer

[bécasse]

I am not at all sure that Hither Green had a GNR coal depot. There was a small coal yard on the up side immediately south of the St.Mildred's Road bridge (where a Hastings diesel came to grief one Sunday evening in 1967), however the access road definitely had SE&CR gates complete with cast plaque.

 

Hither Green SORTING SIDINGS were certainly served by numerous trains which came off the GN main line and ran through the Widened Lines, Snow Hill (or Holborn Viaduct LL) and the either London Bridge or Nunhead. In early BR days these were worked by J52 0-6-0STs but by the time I started spotting in the early 1950s the motive power was J50 0-6-0Ts. The wagons from these trains were then tripped to yards all over the South Eastern Division. There were similar workings from Willesden and Cricklewood, usually via the West London Line, and powered either by W 2-6-4Ts or Stanier 2-8-0s (or very rarely a Crab 2-6-0). Coal from South Wales came via Feltham Yard.

[bbishop]

Walworth Road - Midland yes
Brockley Lane - GNR yes
Peckham Rye - ????
Hither Green - GNR no
Brixton(?) - LNWR(?) no
Elephant & Castle - GNR(?)

 

I can confirm:

Brockley Lane - also LNWR

Peckham Rye - MR & LNWR

Knights Hill - LNWR

Clapham - LNWR

Brixton - MR

Wandsworth - MR

New Cross Gate - GER (goods)

South Lambeth - something unmentionable

 

Bill

[Nearholmer]

Thanks Gents.

 

All is now a great dealer clearer.

 

The reference to a GNR coal depot at Hither Green dates to the period immediately after opening of the Snow Hill route, so my assumption is that it was only a relatively short-lived arrangement, perhaps until Brockley Lane and Elephant & Castle were opened, or something that got transferred to SECR ownership, so ceased to be "foreign", quite early on.

 

In case anyone else is into all this, here is the link to the vital article by Edwin Course http://www.semgonline.com/RlyMag/ForeignDepotsofSthLondon.pdf

 

Next step is to attempt to understand what motive power was used. Things are quite well recorded and photographed for the late-Grouping and BR periods, but, so far I haven't discovered a great deal about the situation pre-1930, and these services had been running for sixty years by then! I will continue to delve.

 

Kevin

[bbishop]

I doubt if Hither Green was ever a depot.  By 1900 suburbia had passed the Knights Hill, Peckham Rye, Brockley Lane  "line", reaching Dulwich, Forest Hill and Lewisham.  The parade of shops at Hither Green station were actually built in 1905.  Also the style of houses was changing.  No longer large buildings with coal cellars, but rather rows of terraces with a bunker in the back garden. This influenced how coal was delivered.

 

Bill

[Nearholmer]

Bill

 

I'm coming round to agree with you, despite the fact that the existence of such a depot is asserted in a well known book.

 

A look at the very detailed OS maps of c1895 shows that Hither Green station was still almost in the country at that date, with the tide of housing just beginning to lap around it. There is no yard, depot, nothing, not even a single siding. I will see what the slightly later maps suggest, when I get more time to look.

 

Kevin

 

Edit: Yep, Hither Green is a confirmed "red herring". The station wasn't even opened until 1895, and the yard wasn't opened until 1899, so I can only speculate as to how one author got it tangled-up with the story of the "foreign" coal depots, which relates to a period c20 years before.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Nearholmer

[The Stationmaster]

 

Walworth Road - Midland yes

Brockley Lane - GNR yes

Peckham Rye - ????

Hither Green - GNR no

Brixton(?) - LNWR(?) no

Elephant & Castle - GNR(?)

 

I can confirm:

Brockley Lane - also LNWR

Peckham Rye - MR & LNWR

Knights Hill - LNWR

Clapham - LNWR

Brixton - MR

Wandsworth - MR

New Cross Gate - GER (goods)

South Lambeth - something unmentionable

 

Bill

 

Bill, you'll know why I clicked 'Funny'.

 

Now New Cross Gate LNER Goods depot is shown in the 1928 RCH Junction Diagrams book as being accessed under ex GNR Running Powers - not GER, and as there seems to have been no amendment I presume that might be correct.

[The Lurker]

Now New Cross Gate LNER Goods depot is shown in the 1928 RCH Junction Diagrams book as being accessed under ex GNR Running Powers - not GER, and as there seems to have been no amendment I presume that might be correct.

The 1908 RCH plan of the approaches to London Bridge which pops up in google does list the New Cross (LBSCR) yard as GER

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bricklayers%27_Arms#/media/File:Bricklayers_Arms_%26_New_Cross,_Midhurst_RJD_91.jpg

Edited September 14, 2015 by The Lurker

[The Stationmaster]

The 1908 RCH plan of the approaches to London Bridge which pops up in google does list the New Cross (LBSCR) yard as GER

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bricklayers%27_Arms#/media/File:Bricklayers_Arms_%26_New_Cross,_Midhurst_RJD_91.jpg

Interesting - I wonder f there is a misprint in the 1928 book or if the depot was actually supplied by a GNR working  (although it should be noted that the 1928 book does not list any former GER Running Powers at all south of the river).

Edited September 14, 2015 by The Stationmaster

[bbishop]

Access to New Cross Gate (LBSC) would be via the East London Joint, part owned by the GER (someone quote the %).  The ELJ stopped short of New Cross Gate, so access to the GER sidings required a double shunt on LBSC metals.  The link at Liverpool St was broken c1965.

 

GNR freight trains ran through London Bridge and New Cross (SECR) to Hither Green sidings.  This continued even after the links were put in either side of Lewisham.

 

Bill

[Nearholmer]

I don't know about GER goods trains to Croydon, but didn't they run passenger trains there for a short period? Not that all "foreign" goods depots were served by their owners' through workings.

 

Even if they didn't have running powers, there might have been a non-statutory reciprocal arrangement between the LBSCR and GER. Which brings up the question of whether the LBSCR had a statutory right of access to Liverpool Street for passenger services, or whether that was "an arrangement".

 

Did the LNWR have powers to get to Croydon? I don't think so, but they certainly went there.

 

Perhaps anyone who was a partner in the ELER or the WLER was considered friend, rather than foe by the Brighton.

 

Kevin

Edited September 14, 2015 by Nearholmer

[The Stationmaster]

Access to New Cross Gate (LBSC) would be via the East London Joint, part owned by the GER (someone quote the %).  The ELJ stopped short of New Cross Gate, so access to the GER sidings required a double shunt on LBSC metals.  The link at Liverpool St was broken c1965.

 

GNR freight trains ran through London Bridge and New Cross (SECR) to Hither Green sidings.  This continued even after the links were put in either side of Lewisham.

 

Bill

The GNR Running Powers for 'goods trains' over the SECR were rather neat comprehensive -

'West Street Junction and places within 15 miles of East Street Junction'

 

I don't know about GER goods trains to Croydon, but didn't they run passenger trains there for a short period? Not that all "foreign" goods depots were served by their owners' through workings.

 

Even if they didn't have running powers, there might have been a non-statutory reciprocal arrangement between the LBSCR and GER. Which brings up the question of whether the LBSCR had a statutory right of access to Liverpool Street for passenger services, or whether that was "an arrangement".

 

Did the LNWR have powers to get to Croydon? I don't think so, but they certainly went there.

 

Perhaps anyone who was a partner in the ELER or the WLER was considered friend, rather than foe by the Brighton.

 

Kevin

 

I can't trace any former SECR Running Powers into Liverpool St as being extant in 1928 but they might have had some arrangement under the East London Line Jt Committee arrangements as their Running Powers to Kings Cross, Hendon, and Kentish Town still existed at that date.         

 

The LNWR had Running Powers over the LBSCR from Clapham Jcn to Croydon East (via Crystal Palace) plus a number other Running Powers to places as diverse as Victoria, Hither Green, Herne Hill, Bricklayers Arms, and Stewarts Lane variously as goods or coaching Powers.  There were of course some amusing results from some of the London area Running Powers - for example the only Grouped Company which couldn't legitimately operate passenger trains from Victoria was the LNER.

[Nick Holliday]

_{The Edwin Course article is pretty comprehensive, but I thought the following tit-bits might be of interest.}

 

_{The short-lived Central Croydon station (as discussed before all the Croydon stations had their location as a prefix) was served by both the LNWR and GER passenger services running from Clapham and New Cross respectively. I am not sure if this was pure altruism on the Brighton’s part, as the station was, theoretically, close to the town centre, or to get these trains out of the main station as quickly as possible. It should be noted that various LNWR locos were photographed around the Brighton system, including at Lewes as well as in the London area.}

 

_{Geoffrey Pember in his treatise on GER 0-4-4 tank locomotives notes regarding Massey Bromley’s E10 class “But perhaps the best-known work on which these engines were engaged was that between Liverpool street and Croydon through the Thames Tunnel.  For this duty five, Nos. 59, 101,233,586 and 588 were fitted with condensing apparatus.  These were the first GE engines to be so fitted as the problem of smoke in the Bishopgate tunnels had not then become as serious as in later years when the service intensified and many more of the suburban tanks had to be fitted with the gear. As the Croydon service was infrequent the engines would act as East Side shunters between trips under the river.”}

 

_{Regarding the later S44 class (Holden/Russell) he notes “All the engines were fitted with condenser pipes ….  and    Up to the end of the war the class was used on East Side suburban services to Ilford as well as on the West Side.  They also took trains from the East Side down through Brunel’s Thames Tunnel, passenger trains going to New Cross Gate and Croydon, and goods from Spitalfields to New Cross and the sidings at Hither Green for exchange with the South Eastern and Chatham.}

 

_{The LBSCR appendix to the working timetable 1922 notes:}

_{New Cross : G. E. Goods Depot – after completing his shunting in the GE Goods Depot, the Guard of the GE train must not allow his Train to be set back towards New Cross South Signal Box until he has first obtained verbal permission from the LB&SC Shunter in charge of the Upper Siding.}

 

_{The LBSC Working Timetable for 1918 has:}

_{Except on Saturdays, Special Goods Trains to and from the Great Northern System and Norwood Junction will work via Herne Hill, Tulse Hill and Crystal Palace.  The Great Northern Trains will be worked between Ferme Park and Tulse Hill by GN Co.’s Engines and Men, and between Norwood Junction and Tulse Hill by the Brighton Co.’s Engines and Men, who will arrive at Tulse Hill with Trains of Empty Wagons from Norwood Junction.}

_{Approximate arrival at Tulse Hill 10.50 a.m., 11.20 a.m. 12. 5 p.m., 12.50 p.m., 1.35 p.m. and 2.5 p.m.}

_{The six loaded trains will run via West Norwood and Crystal Palace.}

_{The first two (empty) trains will run via Selhurst and Streatham and the last four via Crystal Palace.  (24 empties and Brake)}

 

_{Special Foods trains to and from the Great Northern System and Streatham Common will work via Herne Hill, Tulse Hill and Streatham.  The Great Northern Trains will be worked between Ferme Park and Streatham Common by G.N. Co.’s Engines and Men. (A more nocturnal service, with 5 or 6 trains a day, between an 8.10 p.m. arrival at Streatham to a 4.35 a.m. departure heading northwards.)}

 

_{It is noted that trains from Hornsey could load to 23 wagons including Brake heading south, if headed by an F. Class engine, or 19 wagons if and M Class engine in charge.  When assisted by Banking Engine up Ludgate Hill these became 31 and 26 respectively.  Trains from Ferme Park were limited to 20 wagons.  Northbound it was 24 empty wagons plus brake.}

[Nearholmer]

Nick

 

Brilliant stuff!

 

I have a WW1 period LBSCR WTT too, but it is buried in the depths of box in the loft of my daughter's house - I feel a battle with cobwebs coming on!

 

LNWR loco at Lewes? Part of the superheater trials, or something else?

 

I'm not supposed to be creating a pre-grouping layout, but I can sense the seeds of trouble in this discussion, especially as I've become temporarily obsessed with Walworth coal Sidings and Walworth Dust Sidings - imagine a dioramic layout with a parade of different goods and passenger trains on the viaduct, and loads of interesting goods-handling facilities linking with the busy street below.....,...

[Nick Holliday]

Nick

Brilliant stuff!

I have a WW1 period LBSCR WTT too, but it is buried in the depths of box in the loft of my daughter's house - I feel a battle with cobwebs coming on!

LNWR loco at Lewes? Part of the superheater trials, or something else?

I'm not supposed to be creating a pre-grouping layout, but I can sense the seeds of trouble in this discussion, especially as I've become temporarily obsessed with Walworth coal Sidings and Walworth Dust Sidings - imagine a dioramic layout with a parade of different goods and passenger trains on the viaduct, and loads of interesting goods-handling facilities linking with the busy street below.....,...

Not the superheater trials. This was LNWR 969 a Prince of Wales 4-6-0, built in 1919, so well post war. It's on an Eastbourne train, according to the photographer G F Burtt.

Just to add to the mix, and going a bit off-topic, don't forget that the SECR borrowed GNR and H&BR locos during the war.

Another thought, Geoff Pember mentioned that the GER, over a period, provided six 0-4-4 and 12 0-6-0 tanks to serve on the military port at Richborough, and there may be other companies involved as well, and all of these would, I suspect, have travelled over SECR tracks to get there. And you might be able to add in some of the ROD requisitions as well, going via Newhaven, Folkestone or Dover.

[Sunbird24]

Just came upon this thread while searching for information about all locos fitted with condensers for operating in the London Underground system. I note you mention the 5 Massey Bromley E10 locos as 59, 101, 233, 586 & 588 and mention it as I have found a photo of 233 condenser fitted and also one of 101 so fitted. Do we know which others were so fitted later? Is there a listing of which locos were so fitted and when? I have data on more than 700 locos so fitted between 1863 and 1901 but no data on the LB&SCR locos so fitted except a photo of A1x 677 appears so fitted but with small pipes. Some were used on the East London Line. Does anyone know which ones? SER 180 was so fitted but I have no info on the rest of the Q class.

This has been edited due to an error on my part so the original question has changed.

The attached photos are not mine but for reference only, the first is in the GERS Collection 7026 338 and the second is as stated on the image.

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Sunbird24

[Nick Holliday]

19 hours ago, Sunbird24 said:

Just came upon this thread while searching for information about all locos fitted with condensers for operating in the London Underground system. I note you mention the 5 Massey Bromley E10 locos as 59, 101, 233, 586 & 588 and mention it as I have found a photo of 233 condenser fitted and also one of 101 so fitted. Do we know which others were so fitted later? Is there a listing of which locos were so fitted and when? I have data on more than 700 locos so fitted between 1863 and 1901 but no data on the LB&SCR locos so fitted except a photo of A1x 677 appears so fitted but with small pipes. Some were used on the East London Line. Does anyone know which ones? SER 180 was so fitted but I have no info on the rest of the Q class.

This has been edited due to an error on my part so the original question has changed.

 

Not knowing what information you have gathered it is a bit difficult interpreting what it is you are after.  I am surprised you have identified over 700 locos, without being aware of the LBSCR contingent, as the fitting of proper condensing gear was usually confined to  small batches of locos specifically intended to work on underground tunnel lines, not just in London but Liverpool and Glasgow.  Notwithstanding the range of locations, only about 10 major companies, and three underground lines had condensing  locos, and most had only 20-40 such locos.

As for the LBSCR, the vast majority of the 377 locos that Stroudley built were fitted with condensing gear, tanks and TENDER locos!  (The Caledonian built a couple of condensing 0-6-0 tender locos in addition to various tank classes) The principal difference was that the condensing gear was not fitted to minimise steam in tunnels, it was a simple and effective way of pre-heating the feedwater in the tanks, before it went in the boiler. 20-40% of the steam was diverted into a pipe that took it to the side tanks or tender tank, and this happened wherever the loco was, not just in tunnels, one reason why the pipework is smaller in diameter when compared with "proper" condensing locos. Hence there were no specific Terriers allocated to the East London line, as they were all equally equipped to run underground.  New Cross shed, at the southern end of the the ELR had a large allocation of Terriers, at least in their early days, and any one could have run on the ELR.  There might have been changes after the ELR was electrified, as I believe there was a need to equip locos using the tunnel to have the Automatic Train Stop gear fitted.  The condensing gear was gradually removed after Billinton took over, but many locos retained it for a long time, and some had it reinstated to maximise economy when on railmotor duties. The North British Railway, under Drummond, an associate of Stroudley, also had this type of equipment fitted to his tank locos, even though tunnel running wasn't really an issue.

As for the SER, only the first 12 of the Q Class were condenser fitted, 5, 27, 158 161/2/4, 177/8, 180/1/2/4, out of 118. You probably are aware that the LCDR had 36 0-4-4T A, A1 and A2 classes so fitted, together with 33 of the later R and R1 classes.

As for the GER E10 class, the numbers given appear to be the only ones fitted with condensing gear, according to Geoffrey Pember's  book on the topic, but all 40 of Holden's later version S44 Class, were so fitted, although 5 had the equipment removed by the LNER around 1929. There were, of course, several GER classes of other wheel arrangement that had condensing gear as well.