Heljan Class 25 in 7mm

[Dava]

It will be interesting to see the actual Heljan Class 25/1 at Telford soon. In the meantime I'm going to suggest that some commentators are perhaps being a bit critical, even shrill, with their comments on the front end curvature. 

 

The 25/1 is actually quite flat across the front of the gangway area,since the [seldom used] doors themselves were flat. Many of these were subsequently plated over, as we see from the attached photos of D5185 at Loughborough.

 

 

 

The 25/3 had no doors so its likely that the gentle curve across the front panel was even.

 

The BRCW 26, 27 and 33 all had more distinctively curved front ends than the 25. The scrap drawing in #41 is much closer to the BRCW profile. I recall on a visit to Derby Works in the 1970's seeing a wooden former which was used to build new noses for 25's after collision damage or for replacement when corroded beyond repair. It was quite straight across most of the width with a gentle curve at each side. It was used for 25's as they'd stopped heavy repairs on 24's by then.

 

So let's suspend judgement? Its a bit big for me anyway.

 

Dava

[Tove]

Well i have to say that, with all the bashing the 25 seem`s to be getting here,i`m still egarly awaitng mine to turn up next week.

 

I have though in the meantime,been through my books and photo`s trying too find a diffinitive picture that clearly show`s the curve/angle on the cab front of a 25/1.

 

But as Dava has said in the previous post,they do seem to be quite flatish,but not completley.And the Heljan model does seem to back this up.

 

Now this may not be totally scientific;but the cab front hand rails (under the windows) do suggest an angled front wall,either side of the gangway doors.And there is a difference in depth from the outside of the marker light ,to the inner side (arrow)

 

 

Brian.

 

 

[muddys-blues]

Does anybody know if the cab windows will be flush ?

 

Craig

[TEDDYBEAR D9521]

Does anybody know if the cab windows will be flush ?

 

Craig

 

Well according to Brian early on in this post yes.

 

I think we need to give Brian credit for what he has done and wait to see the finished loco before judging, JLTRT kits get wrong as well they are not as prefect as some people think they are I've had that problem with them as well.   

[25901]

The cab nose doors were flat and the replacement blanking panel was also flat. The curve of the front on the early 25's is the same as the curve on the 25/3's. 

To be honest it's the transition from the front curve to the flatness of the flat panel that will be a ###### to get right buts looks good to me. Anyway who am I to say, I have only owned one in 1/1 scale lol

 

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.derbysulzers.com%2F25010eastfieldnorthbw.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.derbysulzers.com%2F25010a.html&docid=QFALb5_Far-_RM&tbnid=IhCHiasj0PjfQM%3A&w=1300&h=805&bih=777&biw=1536&ved=0ahUKEwjYoruM79LOAhWLVhoKHRCoAFYQMwhIKCAwIA&iact=mrc&uact=8

Edited August 21, 2016 by 25901

[DLIBOD17]

Images are up on Rails of Sheffield website.

[Tove]

Does anybody know if the cab windows will be flush ?

 

Craig

Well Craig,If the pictures on the Rails of Sheffield site are anything to go by,then err.....that`ll be a no!.

 

I`ll get mine Wednesday, so we`ll see for sure then.....

 

Brian.

[56038]

Oh dear.....Another Heljan disaster - is it flat front? - is it curved? - Here's a plan; Put away the magnifying glass, put away the micrometer and then put your 25 on the track. Hook up the stock of your choice (obviously not Heljan Mk 1's - apparently they're not right either) apply some power and watch your loco disappear into the distance looking the part. This isn't a display case loco, it's to be used on your "hobby" railway....... Looks like a Class 25 to me!

[F-UnitMad]

If any of my trains "disappear into the distance" it'll mean not only that they've derailed and jumped off the baseboard, but also that I've left the loft hatch open & they're plunging down 2 floors at Terminal Velocity....

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

mmmmm.....seen some very flat fronted Heljan 25's about the net today, i don't feel so bad about wrestling with my brass 25 kit now

[Silverstreak]

I have HJ to thank (I think that is the word) for getting me into O guage diesels as I purchased a class 47 when they came out and I have spent far too much of my money since their way.....

 

BUT.....

 

HJ really need to do better research - especially when so many of us point out these problems but nothing is ever done it seems with original basic shape once produced. Brian tries his best with as much as he can but can obviously only go so far. When you hear a new model is to be produced you just have to pray they don't mess it up too much (thankfully the upcoming Peak looks pretty decent). I've said it before but they should have cleaned up with their Mk1 coaches but they got the shape wrong so I sold mine and have been buying 2ndhand Brassworks ones which I will have to repaint into Blue/Grey. I have had to cut the cabs off my class 40 and refit them to get them at the correct angle - why should I have to do that with a £500+ loco??. The Class 31 seems a few mm too low compared to all my other diesels. A bit more time spent on Research & Development could be easily recouped + lots more with a spot on model being produced in the end. I know Dapol have been doing their 08 for years but atleast it looks like they have been prepared to go back to the drawing board (probably since Richard Webster got involved) and it really looks like a spot on model will be produced - shape wise and they should sell loads and loads of them. It all depends on your level of modelling but most of us O guagers want top notch for the money we are asked to pay. Another problem with the 25 was what version to produce with the different cab fronts etc. That might have split the market almost in half too. Obviously in the interests of HJ and O guage I wish HJ well with their 25 but it could have been so much better if they could just listen to forums such as these and take on board what is said.

Next - it is a little way off but I'm just hoping they don't mess up their 03 - otherwise I'll be on the lookout for another Brassworks one.

 

I fully agree. Has Heljan produced anything yet that is anywhere accurate. Test models appear with inaccuracies, info is passed back to Heljan but the production run appears without rectification. It will be interesting to see how Hattons deal with their-forthcoming Gresley A4, A3 . and coaches for 2018 release

 

Deltic 17 I'm intrigued regarding your mention of Class 40 cab alterations. I'm assuming you have altered the angle of the Cab front windows which are rather flat looking. I would interested in how you went about it.

 

I had considered having an etch produced but never got around to it

 

Regards

Bob

[Jack]

Oh dear.....Another Heljan disaster - is it flat front? - is it curved? - Here's a plan; Put away the magnifying glass, put away the micrometer and then put your 25 on the track. Hook up the stock of your choice (obviously not Heljan Mk 1's - apparently they're not right either) apply some power and watch your loco disappear into the distance looking the part. This isn't a display case loco, it's to be used on your "hobby" railway....... Looks like a Class 25 to me!

 

Sure it'll look dead nice double headed with your Lima 33

 

£500 is a lot for a loco, and for some of us it has been 3 years of saving up.  For that kind of money I want the shape to be right ... and it ain't.  The doors/plates may have been flat, but there is a definite curve on the prototype at bufferbeam level.  The drawings show it, and so do some of the photos.  I guess the problem arose because most prototype pics were taken from an angle which doesn't show it.  But that isn't the angle we normally look at our models from ...

 

In some ways this has done me a favour as i'll get more enjoyment time out of building the jltrt kit anyway.  Just hope i can do a reasonable job on the painting.

[deltic17]

I fully agree. Has Heljan produced anything yet that is anywhere accurate. Test models appear with inaccuracies, info is passed back to Heljan but the production run appears without rectification. It will be interesting to see how Hattons deal with their-forthcoming Gresley A4, A3 . and coaches for 2018 release

 

Deltic 17 I'm intrigued regarding your mention of Class 40 cab alterations. I'm assuming you have altered the angle of the Cab front windows which are rather flat looking. I would interested in how you went about it.

 

I had considered having an etch produced but never got around to it

 

Regards

Bob

Bob,

I'm going to put some pictures up on the old Heljan class 40 thread on RMWeb in a few weeks when I've finished it. Basically I've very carefully cut in front of the cab windows and across the roof top behind the cab windows, refitted to alter the angle and fillered, sanded, adjusted, repainted etc. It has taken a while but for me 40068 GD really looks like a 40 now.

Deltic17

[muddys-blues]

Ok I have been looking at this again, and in truth I first had reservations, but on looking again I honestly don't think it looks that far out, here is a picture off Derby Sulzers.com & Tower Models green model "if copyright infringement is a problem please remove", these are great shots, which give a good comparison for the model against the prototype, I think the windows being recessed don't help the look of the model's cab face, anyway I shall await the delivery of my Blue FYE model now to see if I am disappointed or not !!

 

[Mick Boyd]

Mine has just arrived, flat fronted or not it's superb, I could never get anywhere near using a kit built loco.  In my view the the flattish front doesn't detract one bit-well done Heljan!

 

Cheers, Mick.

[muddys-blues]

Mine has just arrived, flat fronted or not it's superb, I could never get anywhere near using a kit built loco.  In my view the the flattish front doesn't detract one bit-well done Heljan!

 

Cheers, Mick.

 

Hi Mick, is there any chance of some pics at the 3/4 angle and from above looking down on the cab profile ?

 

Best regards

Craig.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

mmmmm.....seen some very flat fronted Heljan 25's about the net today, i don't feel so bad about wrestling with my brass 25 kit now

There are some decent brass class 25's out there Phill, especially with a little fettling (some awful ones too though), knowing you, yours will look superb on your layout.....

 

Sure it'll look dead nice double headed with your Lima 33

 

£500 is a lot for a loco, and for some of us it has been 3 years of saving up.  For that kind of money I want the shape to be right ... and it ain't.  The doors/plates may have been flat, but there is a definite curve on the prototype at bufferbeam level.  The drawings show it, and so do some of the photos.  I guess the problem arose because most prototype pics were taken from an angle which doesn't show it.  But that isn't the angle we normally look at our models from ...

 

In some ways this has done me a favour as i'll get more enjoyment time out of building the jltrt kit anyway.  Just hope i can do a reasonable job on the painting.

I have been holding off of the Class 25 and 22 JLTRT kits for ages - I already have too many kits and too many other things to attend to - but I think, despite the way the windows are fitted to the JLTRT kit, it seems like a superb model, one worth the time and effort, plus striving for, plus if one wants RC or more efficient motors etc then a kit is the way to go. Having said that, I have the Heljan 47, which I am to super-detail and it has its problems (the 'Face' of the loco again, ie the windows - but I can live with that, it really is a case of beauty is in the eye of the beholder) but as I didnt fancy a brass or WM kit, so the Heljan was my compromise (now of course it looks like JLTRT are bringing out a nice kit).

 

I wonder how the JLTRT Class 25 compares to the Heljan? Of course there is the issue of a kit vs RTR and that is a VERY personal choice for a myriad of reasons!

 

Ok I have been looking at this again, and in truth I first had reservations, but on looking again I honestly don't think it looks that far out, here is a picture off Derby Sulzers.com & Tower Models green model "if copyright infringement is a problem please remove", these are great shots, which give a good comparison for the model against the prototype, I think the windows being recessed don't help the look of the model's cab face, anyway I shall await the delivery of my Blue FYE model now to see if I am disappointed or not !!

 

Green Class 25 for comparison.jpgtower25.jpg

It will be nice to see some photos on here of the production Heljan 25 vs pre-pro 25s that Brian did, as the window glazing issue can mislead/be a little off putting...although I have to say Brian, as always, did a very nice job of letting us know, by and large, what the finished RTR version would look like.

 

I am, as I have banged on about before, all for a manufacturer getting it right first time - after all they are the subject matter experts - and if the body and main aspects are good then its up to the modeller if they want to super-detail the model yet further (or just plug and play), there is a caveat to these comments though. Even with laser scanning and then CAD (CAD drawings can look very sexy but can be misleading at times) etc etc one would think that accuracy is easy these days - it aint, especially on a diesel outline model with all of those curves (remember the old hair shirt wearing kettle modellers who used to say that; 'a diesel is a box on wheels and thus easy to model' WRONG!). In addition translating a real live loco into model form - well - isnt easy either, relative to scale/gauge and substrate materials etc etc, that's where the skill of the model/pattern makers (now CAD Jockeys et al) comes into play ie adapting and maybe compromising on certain aspects (hopefully hardly noticeable to the customer) so as to achieve a mass - relatively speaking with model locos - produced model in plastic from tooling that is accurate and to scale - ie looks right. Its not easy.

 

Having said all of the above dare I mention the missed opportunity that are the Heljan MK1s, all parties should have noticed prior to launch! Having said that, depending on ones time, funds and skills, they can be fettled to make a better looking coach (side on at least) - although maybe sustaining some paintwork damage if the window issue is rectified - but they are still a considered purchase price point for most. They are, after all, RTR though, ie if one doesnt fancy commissioning the likes of Peter Cowling for RTR MK1s (which are very nicely executed layout MK1s) and one hasnt the time to build the ultimate MMP MK1. In between of course there are the excellent kits from Easy Build and JLTRT - we have choice whereas, even back 15/16 years ago there was very little choice in this scale and gauge other than to kit build some very basic models - without lots of work to fettle and thus detail. Then came the RTR brass models - also not perfect and initial batches, IIRC came covered in a hard to remove lacquer as they were in self-colour brass and the lacquer avoided tarnishing, but was a b$gge% to remove and/or over paint! But I digress......

 

We are speaking of, for most, even with 0% interest on savings, a 'considered purchase' for these models and one pays their money and makes their choice.

 

I cannot help but think that if any production models (from any manufacturer) were given to the magazines prior to launch to the general public so as to enable critiques and thus comprehensive reviews (before launch), if market forces would have more of an impact on said models - but such procedures wont ever take place for a myriad of reasons which I have mentioned before elsewhere on other threads LOL!

 

As all of the manufacturers are (should be) subject matter experts, it would be nice to think that we can trust all of them to get it right first time (especially at these price points) - but they dont always. But judging by the pressures that seem to be placed on humans these days - with most of us being barely 'happy boiled frog slaves' (reference to Charles Handy et al.) - and the subsequent fatigue etc. mistakes are made. I know, when building a model, that sometimes, one ends up not seeing the wood for the trees, when it comes to research and objectivity.

 

It is a fine line, with the considered purchases that 7mm scale models (in plastic) often are, between wishing for perfection at sub £2000 prices and/or owning a 'recognisable model of the prototype running in/through a credible background' (Jack Ray).

 

Each to their own.

 

ATVB to all,

 

CME

Edited August 24, 2016 by CME and Bottlewasher

[73080]

As I am interesting in purchasing this model but have concerns about the accuracy of the 'flatish' front of the model, I have researched through 1,000+ photos of class 25 locos.  The result is that I am beginning to wonder if we are focusing sufficiently on the prototype.

 

The Heljan model is a Class 25/1 not a class 25/0.  Hence the appropriate prototypes are only D5176 - D5232.  Furthermore, from the Rails of Sheffield website photos, the green syp model appears to have a Derby worksplate. As D5176 - 85 & D5223 - 32 were Darlington built, the appropriate prototypes are further restricted to only the Derby built locos nos. D5186 - D5222 (25036 - 72).

 

Photos of the prototype in the plane of front communicating doors are extremely rare.  Having viewed a photo of the preserved D5185 (Darlington built) in this plane, I would agree with some comments that the front of the Heljan model is too flat for a Darlington build.

 

That said, whilst the prototype photos I have viewed are slightly off the exact plane necessary to be definitive, I am being drawn to the conclusion that the Derby-built locos may well have had a significantly flatter front.  This would be in agreement with post #52's reference to the flat wooden former at Derby works.

 

Whilst I reserve final judgement until some-one can post photos of the preserved D5207, D5209 or D5218 in the exact plain of the front communication doors, I am 90% certain that the drawings in Modern Locomotives Illustrate show an inaccurately curved front for Derby-built D5186 - D5222.  This curvature has been replicated in the Hornby & Bachmann '00' models, which I an tending to believe is more correct for the Darlington built locos.  Until such time as contradictory photographic evidence becomes available, I would suggest that the Heljan model is the most accurate representation yet for the Derby-built Class 25/1, and the criticism of a too flat front would only apply if one wanted to model a Darlington-built prototype.

[Osgood]

What an informative post 73080, thank you.  Notwithstanding photographic distortion, it is quite apparent there was variation in profile - your more scientific approach to the question is most useful.

 

Of the multitude of pictures of the 24/25 family I have studied recently, I concluded that the Heljan profile bears a quite remarkable resemblance to 65%, and is quite unlike the remaining 35%.

 

The following views of a new arrival give an idea of the degree of curvature  - it looks like 65% of the pictures I've seen, so I'm happy!

 

If you think it fairly represents a Class 25/1 you will no doubt be happy.

And if you still think it is too flat, hopefully you too will be happy that these pictures prove you were right all along.

 

And if enough folk are happy that it is wrong, I'll be happy too, as it implies sales might falter and the price collapse, and I'll be able to pick up a second one at a knock-down price! 

 

I guess the glazing is as close to being flush as can be without actually complying with the definition of flush glazing - which is a bit infuriating as it seems hardly worth doing anything to improve it.

Having said that if there was a flush glazing kit available it would be tempting.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2016 by Osgood

[MiDAS]

Arrived today. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is probably a duck.

[duncan]

Thinking of the prototype, are there any still around that we know has NOT been subject to front end work or repair ?  Might be the difference between different people's measurements.

[Tove]

Well i now have mine,and have been all over it this past hour.....and i have to say personally i love it......almost!!

 

Let me explain;

 

It looks the dog`s do-dar`s,and has some very nice fine detailing and a good selection of add on bits to boot.It also includes the blanking plate`s for the grills on either side of the body at no 2 end,a nice addition as it a blue example.

 

Now for the great 'NOSE' debate..

 

It is angled/curved either side of the gangway doors,if ever so gentley.And the cab also seem`s to have a gentle taper towards the front as well.

I have darken the picture slightly,so hopfully it show`s this.

 

 

AS for the 'almost',well looking at the buffer on no1 end i noticed it was slightly askew.So i thought, "that`s ok,just needs a little more adjustment"

errr not quite.....

 

It is in fact down to the casting for the buffer beam it`s self.

As you look at the picture below you`ll notice the casting is slighty higher on one side,at bit of a pain in the back side,but not the end of the world.

So as well as my planned mod`s to the loco,it now seem`s a little fettling is in order.

Now THIS IS A BASIC mistake that could have been avoided early on.......(or this a one off?)

 

But even with this, am i still happy with the loco......you bet ya back side i am!,especially as i don`t have to build/motorize and paint the thing!.

Plus it`s only 25 quid all up,more than a kit.

 

Now where`s that sound chip......

 

Brian.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Osgood]

…...Now THIS IS A BASIC mistake that could have been avoided early on.......(or this a one off?)….

 

 

 

Either (not very likely) yours was in a hard front-end shunt with mine at the factory - or (more likely) it is a common issue!

[Tove]

 - or (more likely) it is a common issue!

 

 It seem`s to have become part of Heljan`s signature trademark,a small (?) mistake somewhere........

 

A bit like the way Terence Cuneo used to put a very small mouse somewhere in his paintings.!!

 

I`m still happy though.

 

Brian.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Tove

[Guest 47107]

Either (not very likely) yours was in a hard front-end shunt with mine at the factory - or (more likely) it is a common issue!

 

Mine has a slight twist to the buffer beam at one end, but hardly noticeable from normal viewing angles.