Heljan Class 25 in 7mm

[CME and Bottlewasher]

As I am interesting in purchasing this model but have concerns about the accuracy of the 'flatish' front of the model, I have researched through 1,000+ photos of class 25 locos.  The result is that I am beginning to wonder if we are focusing sufficiently on the prototype.

 

The Heljan model is a Class 25/1 not a class 25/0.  Hence the appropriate prototypes are only D5176 - D5232.  Furthermore, from the Rails of Sheffield website photos, the green syp model appears to have a Derby worksplate. As D5176 - 85 & D5223 - 32 were Darlington built, the appropriate prototypes are further restricted to only the Derby built locos nos. D5186 - D5222 (25036 - 72).

 

Photos of the prototype in the plane of front communicating doors are extremely rare.  Having viewed a photo of the preserved D5185 (Darlington built) in this plane, I would agree with some comments that the front of the Heljan model is too flat for a Darlington build.

 

That said, whilst the prototype photos I have viewed are slightly off the exact plane necessary to be definitive, I am being drawn to the conclusion that the Derby-built locos may well have had a significantly flatter front.  This would be in agreement with post #52's reference to the flat wooden former at Derby works.

 

Whilst I reserve final judgement until some-one can post photos of the preserved D5207, D5209 or D5218 in the exact plain of the front communication doors, I am 90% certain that the drawings in Modern Locomotives Illustrate show an inaccurately curved front for Derby-built D5186 - D5222.  This curvature has been replicated in the Hornby & Bachmann '00' models, which I an tending to believe is more correct for the Darlington built locos.  Until such time as contradictory photographic evidence becomes available, I would suggest that the Heljan model is the most accurate representation yet for the Derby-built Class 25/1, and the criticism of a too flat front would only apply if one wanted to model a Darlington-built prototype.

Good points well made.

 

 

What an informative post 73080, thank you.  Notwithstanding photographic distortion, it is quite apparent there was variation in profile - your more scientific approach to the question is most useful.

 

Of the multitude of pictures of the 24/25 family I have studied recently, I concluded that the Heljan profile bears a quite remarkable resemblance to 65%, and is quite unlike the remaining 35%.

 

The following views of a new arrival give an idea of the degree of curvature  - it looks like 65% of the pictures I've seen, so I'm happy!

 

If you think it fairly represents a Class 25/1 you will no doubt be happy.

And if you still think it is too flat, hopefully you too will be happy that these pictures prove you were right all along.

 

And if enough folk are happy that it is wrong, I'll be happy too, as it implies sales might falter and the price collapse, and I'll be able to pick up a second one at a knock-down price! banana.gif

 

I guess the glazing is as close to being flush as can be without actually complying with the definition of flush glazing - which is a bit infuriating as it seems hardly worth doing anything to improve it.

Having said that if there was a flush glazing kit available it would be tempting.

 

25 a.jpg

 

25 b.jpg

 

Thanks for Posting it gives everyone a better idea of the 'issues'..... Very nice!

 

Arrived today. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is probably a duck.

I nearly used that saying but held off so that a.n.other could use it LOL!

 

 It seem`s to have become part of Heljan`s signature trademark,a small (?) mistake somewhere........

 

A bit like the way Terence Cuneo used to put a very small mouse somewhere in his paintings.!!

 

I`m still happy though.

 

Brian.

The mouse (mice) are adorable and quirky, paying several hundred £££ and having issues isnt.

 

Its a good job that most of us are grateful modellers (ie dont have to build or paint a loco) and we can usually amend Heljan et al's mistakes.....almost as bad as the motor 'industry' (sic), my other half cant understand us 'men', 'if it's faulty it should go back' she argues (sage wisdom in those words), but it seems that anything mass produced these days has a problem with it if it comes from China......I long for the days of 'old' when Japanese build quality ruled supreme and at the sort of relative % prices that China et al are now charging us for finished consumer goods (with faults). I would argue that we have all had to set our sights lower these days?

 

My best wishes to those with issues with their models for a speedy and easy fix.

 

ATVB

 

CME

Edited August 26, 2016 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Tove]

 

 I would argue that we have all had to set our sights lower these days?

 

ATVB

 

CME

 

 

I think you may be right there CME,but perhaps there is also a small dose of the 'Great British' reserve thrown in for good measure as well.

I`m mean, it`s just not done to complain about thing`s too much,is it........

 

But to put things in context;whilst i`m not quite happy about the small error with my loco,i am 99.5% happy with it as a whole.

And i did also buy it knowing that i`d have to do a small amout of work to it,to turn it in to a loco that was in it`s twilight years.So perhaps the modeler in me see`s the buffer beam issue, not as a problem, but rather more as a challange!.

 

Now this may seem a bit odd,but i`ve come back over to modeling BR after modelling US railroads in 1:48,and if you`ve seen the ready to run stuff on offer,then you`ll know why a little fettling does`nt bother me.

And not wanting to stir a hornet`s nest,but the equivalent US RTR 2 rail O gauge loco`s, have more compromises than that well known (?) political party with the yellow budgie as their logo.......

 

Time for my medication i think......

 

Brian.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Tove

[vimpto]

My class 25 came today and have to say its more robust than my Heljan class 40 given that the parcel delivery driver just threw it over my 6ft high gates on to a flagged yard and it survived intact.  

[F-UnitMad]

And not wanting to stir a hornet`s nest,but the equivalent US RTR 2 rail O gauge loco`s, have more compromises than that well known (?) political party with the yellow budgie as their logo.......

 

Go on then, I'll bite. What sort of compromises, beyond the wrong gauge?? (same as UK R-T-R) & "equivalent" meaning the Atlas Master range, not Trainman.

[Tove]

Go on then, I'll bite. What sort of compromises, beyond the wrong gauge?? (same as UK R-T-R) & "equivalent" meaning the Atlas Master range, not Trainman.

 

 

This is probably not the thread to go into this at the moment,so i`m going leave you hanging till i start my layout thread in a few weeks........

 

Brian.

[101]

My class 25 came today and have to say its more robust than my Heljan class 40 given that the parcel delivery driver just threw it over my 6ft high gates on to a flagged yard and it survived intact.

Yodel ?

[Jintyman]

My 25/1 arrived today, and very pleased with it I am. Smooth running straight out of the box, looks good (to me). The comments above and the works plates on the cab sides, put the loco as a Derby built example, which as has been discussed earlier, has a flatter nose, which the Heljan is closest to.

If I was to pick up on anything, it would be the headcode box, alpha numeric codes. I'm not sure they look correct, but I think I have some of the Precision Labels ones to try. I fancy altering them anyway to make mine more individual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Considering this was close to the cost of a JLTRT kit on its own, and this comes with motor, wheels, gears, paint, etc and you can put it on your track and it will run. I think it represents good value for money.

If you want a shelf queen or more of an 'accurate' example, then there is the JLTRT kit.

I have a JLTRT 24/1 to build in my kit collection, and I'm looking forward to it, but this one is a RTR example, which inevitably will have some compromise in it, but I can put it on my track and drive it straight out of the box!!!!

 

Jinty

[class27]

Looking forward to mine turning up. Having studied my old model railway constructor planbook I think there is some slight difference in the front profile between Darlington and Derby built Locos (was that why they had drawings of both in the book??)

When these Locos were built there was no CNC so formers and bucks would have been hand made it is very likely you could run a profile gauge over any preserved loco and find slight shape discrepancies at either end of the same Loco.

As always you pays your money and takes your chance. I have a Heljan 26 and am very pleased with it I hope my 25 will be the same.

I follow quite a few topics on here and I know that I do not have the quality of hand skill to build kits to the standard of finish I would like.

That does not stop me from being inspired by some of what I see on this forum,and it has led to some improvement and success on my own modelling journey

And some disasters which we will not speak of

[vimpto]

Yodel ?

Not this time, DPD interlink were the offenders.  I had requested it be delivered to my local Halfords so I could collect after work but they thought they would save me the trip.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I think you may be right there CME,but perhaps there is also a small dose of the 'Great British' reserve thrown in for good measure as well.

I`m mean, it`s just not done to complain about thing`s too much,is it........

 

But to put things in context;whilst i`m not quite happy about the small error with my loco,i am 99.5% happy with it as a whole.

And i did also buy it knowing that i`d have to do a small amout of work to it,to turn it in to a loco that was in it`s twilight years.So perhaps the modeler in me see`s the buffer beam issue, not as a problem, but rather more as a challange!.

 

Now this may seem a bit odd,but i`ve come back over to modeling BR after modelling US railroads in 1:48,and if you`ve seen the ready to run stuff on offer,then you`ll know why a little fettling does`nt bother me.

And not wanting to stir a hornet`s nest,but the equivalent US RTR 2 rail O gauge loco`s, have more compromises than that well known (?) political party with the yellow budgie as their logo.......

 

Time for my medication i think......

 

Brian.

So true Brian. If The Sale of Goods Act, the Supply of Goods and Services Act and/or Consumer Rights Act (2015) were used more often by the general public when there are duff products and/or poor levels of service (which the supplier has failed to recognise and/or resolve) then perhaps the world would be a better place for us all ie 100% service? In the modern world though I dare say that instead of better TQM and Continuous Improvement such retailers and manufacturers would merely put the price up to cover the cost of legal actions brought against them!?    Also in this day and age if one goes up against a 'big-business' then although legal right maybe on ones side in reality going up against big business would be neigh on impossible cost wise, so in that regard we have legal rights on paper - but in reality they have been eroded post 2008 (most ombudsmen are toothless tigers and are directly funded by the industries they preside over   ).

 

Model railway manufacturers are lucky that most of us can fix and fettle!

 

My class 25 came today and have to say its more robust than my Heljan class 40 given that the parcel delivery driver just threw it over my 6ft high gates on to a flagged yard and it survived intact.  

Bless you! So glad to hear that it didnt get damaged!

 

There are certain on-line retailers and associated carriers that need avoiding like the plague - the world is/gone mad - what normal person (even if in an under-paid/stressful job) would think; "I know there is a 6' gate in my way, I will therefore throw this 4 kg package over said gate - as opposed to delivering to a neighbour/leaving a note etc etc etc - I am sure that the customer will be delighted with the high level of service I have just provided!" Orcs!!

 

My father had £100 plus of railway stuff rammed into a filthy wheelie bin the other day! A few years back an insured live steam loco was left by his front door! He could have pulled a flanker with the retailer and denied all knowledge of delivery (ended up with two £1400 locos) and the insurance would have covered such off for the retailer (well most of it, as we know insurance never want to pay out - they bat on about insurance fraud, the insurance industry is the fraud as a thinly veiled protection-racket). He didnt and wouldn't as he his an honourable fellow, honest, four square and true. I bet some other unscrupulous types would though.

 

My 25/1 arrived today, and very pleased with it I am. Smooth running straight out of the box, looks good (to me). The comments above and the works plates on the cab sides, put the loco as a Derby built example, which as has been discussed earlier, has a flatter nose, which the Heljan is closest to.

If I was to pick up on anything, it would be the headcode box, alpha numeric codes. I'm not sure they look correct, but I think I have some of the Precision Labels ones to try. I fancy altering them anyway to make mine more individual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tally 139.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Considering this was close to the cost of a JLTRT kit on its own, and this comes with motor, wheels, gears, paint, etc and you can put it on your track and it will run. I think it represents good value for money.

If you want a shelf queen or more of an 'accurate' example, then there is the JLTRT kit.

I have a JLTRT 24/1 to build in my kit collection, and I'm looking forward to it, but this one is a RTR example, which inevitably will have some compromise in it, but I can put it on my track and drive it straight out of the box!!!!

 

Jinty

Glad to hear it Jinty and the HJ 25 vs the JLTRT version is an interesting 'case study' in terms of the way things are going in the hobby. Personally I would have either, but I would really like to build the JLTRT version (as you said it just has the edge, but at a price) and a class 22.

 

Not this time, DPD interlink were the offenders.  I had requested it be delivered to my local Halfords so I could collect after work but they thought they would save me the trip.

Something to bear in mind in the future?  

[Guest 40-something]

Yodel ?

Sound like them.  I've just had them fold a box of flexitrack so it would fit in a 'safe place'.  Report it back to Yodel and the shop you bought it from, damage or not

[Guest 40-something]

Not this time, DPD interlink were the offenders.  I had requested it be delivered to my local Halfords so I could collect after work but they thought they would save me the trip.

DPD recently left a parcel for me in my neighbours bin, despite it being the other side of a fence and I was at home at the time!

[101]

Yodel once left a parcel on the rear bumper of my car - luckily it wasn't dark when I came out and I noticed it. No card through the door and I had been in all day

[uk_pm]

I have read this thread with considerable interest, and awaited the actual model with a degree of trepidation.  However, research appears to confirm the theory that there was no definitive shape for the prototype, with some appearing, and probably having, a flatter front than others. Indeed, an article about class 25s in the current edition of Traction contains on page 23 a picture of 25 063 which appears to show a very flat-fronted locomotive indeed.  Ultimately, I continue to find the overall Heljan package to be excellent value for money; the locomotives are nicely detailed, beautifully finished, and contain a superb mechanism.  

 

I have also built the excellent JLTRT kit, but there is no comparison between my crude efforts and the Heljan model, whilst the latter comes in considerably cheaper.  

 

For those that are interested, here is a couple of shots of the two locomotives side by side at the fuelling point on my small O gauge layout.  

 

 

[delticfan]

Really undecided on this now, I've looked at dozens of pics and would agree that there are differences between the works in detail. I like others can kit build but really don't have the time so there lies the dilemma, it looks a cracking model to be honest and now I have to decide blue or green. It's going to be an expensive few months coming up in o gauge rtr!

[Jintyman]

Really undecided on this now, I've looked at dozens of pics and would agree that there are differences between the works in detail. I like others can kit build but really don't have the time so there lies the dilemma, it looks a cracking model to be honest and now I have to decide blue or green. It's going to be an expensive few months coming up in o gauge rtr!

 

 

Well I'm very pleased with my GSYP version, and some numerals and a touch of weathering makes it look more of the part in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

I think against the kit, Heljan represents value for money, and bearing in mind the differences between the different builders, they had a window to choose, which was a Derby built example, so the model represents that, which is different to the Darlington one.

 

Jinty

[Osgood]

Could it be?

 

[delticfan]

Thanks for the photos you really are not helping the situation ha ha. The weathering looks stunning, I have several Heljan diesels and tend to overlook all the niggles I agree they are good value for money. One question how bad is the bent buffer issue I take it you have probably sorted it out.

[Jintyman]

 One question how bad is the bent buffer issue I take it you have probably sorted it out.

 

I have just eased the screw on one side and put some 0.020" plastikard in between to pack it out.

Although the buffers haven't been treated at the time of the photos.

 

I agree, they are good value, without going into what manufacturers give to RTR 7mm, and without the likes of these models, 7mm might not be as popular as it is.

 

Jinty

[73080]

GREEN  SYP  MODEL  ONLY

 

During the search through photos prior to my post #69, I noticed variations in the size of small yellow panels on the real Class 25/1 locos.  I have now analysed these variations, and make the following observations:

 

It is evident that Darlington and Derby Works sent out new locos ex-works with different sizes of yellow panels.  In this regard, please note that the syp on the preserved D5185 shown in the photos in post #52 is not correct for any ex-works new Class 25/1.

 

Darlington build (D5176 - 85 and D5223 - 32)

The Heljan model appears to be an accurate representation of the syp for a new ex-works Darlington build - i.e. the off-white side body stripe continues across the front of the loco immediately below the yellow panel, with green between the stripe and buffer beam.

 

Derby build (D5186 - D5222)

These had a very different arrangement with the syp extending all the way down the front, stopping only immediately above the buffer beam - i.e. the off-white side body stripes stop at the sides of the yellow panel and do NOT continue across the front.  There is no green between the bottom of the yellow panel and the buffer beam.

 

Summarising this post and my post #69, anybody wanting a green syp model is faced with the following issues:

 

Model of Darlington build:

-  representation of small yellow panel correct, but

-  model has a Derby worksplate

-  the flattish front of the model is inaccurate for a Darlington build and is more accurate for a Derby build

 

Model of Derby build

- has Derby worksplate

- has flatish front more typical of Derby built loco, but

- yellow panel needs to be repainted so that it extends all the way down to the buffer beams.

 

So which compromise do you accept, or do you decide not to buy the model ?

[roythebus]

Having scanned through this thread, I'd say have a good representation of the 25s as I remember them. I worked on them for over a year when I was a secondman at Rugby in 1974. Yes there were detail differences, even between consecutively numbered locos.

 

My criticism that nobody else has picked up on is too many air pipes on the buffer beam! when built the locos weren't generally fitted with air brakes, so would not have had the red train brake pipe nor the yellow main reservoir pipe. They only had the small white air control pipe for the loco's governor controls, the vacuum brake pipe and the multiple working jumper. Boiler fitted locos would have the steam heat pipe too. The programme of fitting locos with train air brakes started in the mid to late 1960s, and plenty of 25s I worked on were not fitted with air brakes in 1974, well into the "blue" era. I don't recall seeing any green liveried locos at that time. so for complete accuracy, check your era and find out! The locos were of course fitted with a loco air brake.

 

Also, the non air braked locos had a different brake handle in the cab if you want to be really OTT! Of course, if you want somethign different, one had an early cab with doors and headcode discs at one end and a later cab without doors and headcode box!

[delticfan]

The detail changes are fascinating on this model, for me the fact that the flat end is accurate for a particular works in Derby has sold it for me, I'm pleased the buffer beam issue can easily be sorted as that would bother me. As for livery I could overlook this but my purchase will definitely be green, I've even considered green full yellow ends and tops numbered aka 25043. What a nice day to ponder my purchase, it's driving my wife mad though she just doesn't get it! I am a convert to this loco now shouldn't have doubted it in the first place but we all make mistakes!

[mark54]

Having scanned through this thread, I'd say have a good representation of the 25s as I remember them. I worked on them for over a year when I was a secondman at Rugby in 1974. Yes there were detail differences, even between consecutively numbered locos.

 

My criticism that nobody else has picked up on is too many air pipes on the buffer beam! when built the locos weren't generally fitted with air brakes, so would not have had the red train brake pipe nor the yellow main reservoir pipe. They only had the small white air control pipe for the loco's governor controls, the vacuum brake pipe and the multiple working jumper. Boiler fitted locos would have the steam heat pipe too. The programme of fitting locos with train air brakes started in the mid to late 1960s, and plenty of 25s I worked on were not fitted with air brakes in 1974, well into the "blue" era. I don't recall seeing any green liveried locos at that time. so for complete accuracy, check your era and find out! The locos were of course fitted with a loco air brake.

 

Also, the non air braked locos had a different brake handle in the cab if you want to be really OTT! Of course, if you want somethign different, one had an early cab with doors and headcode discs at one end and a later cab without doors and headcode box!

Surely they would need the main air reservoir pipes to operate in multiple?

[TEDDYBEAR D9521]

Well I'm very pleased with my GSYP version, and some numerals and a touch of weathering makes it look more of the part in my opinion.

 

Tally 145.jpg

 

Tally 148.jpg

 

 

I think against the kit, Heljan represents value for money, and bearing in mind the differences between the different builders, they had a window to choose, which was a Derby built example, so the model represents that, which is different to the Darlington one.

 

Jint

 

That looks good after the weathering I don't know why people are moaning so much.

 

As you say good value for money.

 

Looks like a 25 to me.

[Tove]

GREEN  SYP  MODEL  ONLY

 

 

Model of Darlington build:

-  representation of small yellow panel correct, but

-  model has a Derby worksplate

-  the flattish front of the model is inaccurate for a Darlington build and is more accurate for a Derby build

 

Model of Derby build

- has Derby worksplate

- has flatish front more typical of Derby built loco, but

- yellow panel needs to be repainted so that it extends all the way down to the buffer beams.

 

So which compromise do you accept, or do you decide not to buy the model ?

You could always buy a Derby built blue one.........!!

 

Brian.