trams/railways in the future

[siltec]

The trouble with induction supply is the same one that Maglev faces. The track has to be part of the circuit which sends the costs sky high, not counting the material needed. Unless there is some breakthrough that i do not kow of i suspect this will have minority application, such as in a wealth gulf state where it is fitted.

 

As trams stop and start frequently it seems more likely that a combination of batteries and boost charging at stops will prevail for wireless trams.

 

Stud systems, and modern variants usually work quite well. Wolverhampton managed to run a stud system for years, only really giving up when spares became impossible. This is an area where solid state switchin must work to the advantage of the process.

 

It would be nice to have the track lit as well so that it was normally green with only a red glow coming out as the tram passed over and switched on a section to become live.

 

Not as cheap as a third rail, but much much less than induction.

 

For the modeller the use of a centre rail really saves a lot of  work.

[Alan J Kirkman]

I have to say my gut tells me history will repeat itself and all these non wire pick up methods will in time follow the old alternatives in proving too expensive to maintain after a while and too complicated and good old simple OLE will once again prove cheapest and easiest in the long run. Mind you it'll be years hence before we know.   

[rue_d_etropal]

Technology is developing very fast these days. Batteries/storage units are getting better, and failings in design, just mean some new design is tried. I suspect much of this new development(not always the best way forward), is to justify large research departments in these companies. Induction charging is possibly not progressing as fast as it could because it needs new vehicle designs to maximise storage of the batteries. I have read this is one problem with the technology in buses. The simplest way for non rail, might be the reintroduction of the trolleybus.

Now I have had my idea in a letter published in Railway Modeller, I am probably committed to building a small working layout. I will probably start on something in a couple of weeks. Initially, I just want to see how much I can fit in the space, but i do want to include a passenger tram, and maybe a light rail freight line running down the street.

[coline33]

Yes, Simon, technology is developing very fast these days.   You ought to follow Scott McIntosh's recent and continuing articles in "Tramways & Urban Transit" from which I have the feeling that the total vehicle weight may make wire-free trams uneconomic.   I still believe that hydrogen powered trams with the substantial capital savings in infrastructure costs could well be the future.   Whilst hydrogen 'heritage tram' operations have commenced in the past year in Aruba and Dubai, Foshan in China appears to be the first 'city' system to go this way in 2017.   The first low-floor articulated car is currently under testing.   Both hydrogen trams and buses can be fuelled from a common production source at the depot or elsewhere.   I view the new intended investment in trolleybuses in Leeds a complete waste and better spent on electric buses on York's park & ride services with the recharging points at the outer terminals and at certain city centre bus stops.   I was in York last year when Arriva's electric bus was on display and certainly felt that bus chassis had to be as strong as that of the tramcar whether storage capacity was on the roof or within.   To me, hydrogen trams working the proposed South Wimbledon - Sutton - Belmont line could be used to strengthen the existing London Tramlink services.   The hydrogen coming from a facility also to power buses in the Croydon and Sutton areas.   At the end of the day, decisions will be down to total system sustainability.   All the best with your model, Colin LW.

[phil_sutters]

You could always have a tram with no track, no power supply and no chassis. A full sized model can be seen attached!

[rue_d_etropal]

static mockups of trams could be used as part of a model scene, but are unlikely to suggest real potential of tramways in city centres.

I am too young to remember pre smokeless zones properly, but have seen enough news film clips to make me appreciate the research that was done at the time, and despite it resulting ulimately in close down of coal mines, our health was more important. Assuming the road lobby can be tackled I can see pressure to make city centres free of all petrol and diesel pollution. at one time the cigarette/smoking lobby was all powerful, but look how that has also changed dramatically over only a few years.

One of my ideas to to suggest how rails could be the future not just for people but also for freight. 

[phil_sutters]

static mockups of trams could be used as part of a model scene, but are unlikely to suggest real potential of tramways in city centres.

I am too young to remember pre smokeless zones properly, but have seen enough news film clips to make me appreciate the research that was done at the time, and despite it resulting ulimately in close down of coal mines, our health was more important. Assuming the road lobby can be tackled I can see pressure to make city centres free of all petrol and diesel pollution. at one time the cigarette/smoking lobby was all powerful, but look how that has also changed dramatically over only a few years.

One of my ideas to to suggest how rails could be the future not just for people but also for freight. 

This one didn't! Boris axed it as soon as he got into power at City Hall.

[rue_d_etropal]

 

This one didn't! Boris axed it as soon as he got into power at City Hall.

probably was worried he might get his bicycle wheels stuck in the tram tracks!

[teetrix]

Here's one from the "road lobby". Geneva battery powered bus, ultrafast charging in 15 seconds with 400 kW. Overhead charging contacts at the bus stops instead of (sometimes dangerous*) induction pads:

http://altmob.com/the-new-generation-of-electric-buses-flash-charging-at-the-bus-stops

 

I assume the system is adaptable for tramways too, and the loading facilities would be nice to model...

 

Michael

 

* a simple metal/paper foil, resting at the area during loading, can become hot enough to ignite. Or imagine a cat/dog with a metal collar walking over the area... 

[rue_d_etropal]

if there are potential safety problems with induction charging, then this looks a whole lot less safe, if something goes wrong. I think the road lobby are getting desperate to keep roads as main option. I suppose it might be seen as a potential alternative to trolley buses, which have not been on roads in UK for nearly 50 years, and don't seem to be an option suggested in UK.

 

The battery option being used for Birmingham looks a better option. Given that that is being used partly because of hills on route, I wonder if that is a problem with flash charging. Seem to be quite a few companies looking at new ideas. As I said I think road lobby are worried that rail might be ahead of the game.

[Legend]

I'm thinking some sort of powered pod like vehicle . Smaller than trams where you get in and key in where you want to go. The computer takes over and gets you there the most efficient route, through some sort of guidance system in the road. It then calculates where it's next fare is coming from and sets off there. A cross between tram and taxi I suppose, but much smaller . Maybe something like the Heathrow pods that connect car parks with terminal 5 .

[Nearholmer]

It might not make much practical difference on a model, because the little plastic people tend to be pretty idle already, but think autonomous vehicles, both on steel and rubber tyres, and hopping between the two. And, think small vehicles, because a fleet of small vehicles can adjust to traffic demands very closely - the empty ones can go for a nap/charge "off peak", whereas the empty 2/3 of a big one can't.

 

Personally, I would expect fixed power supply infrastructure to remain in use, except where it is impractical, because of the losses involved in charging even the best energy-storage systems.

 

All of the above, freight and passenger transport.

 

Look forward to seeing the layout, Kevin

 

PS: and, all your vehicles will have regenerative braking, either mechanical (flywheel or hydraulic) or electrical (batteries and/or capacitors), but it will be invisible on a model!

[rue_d_etropal]

has anyone done a recent comparison study comparing metal wheel on rail, and rubber tyre on road. I seem to remember that when tramways started, they found a horse could pull a much heavier load on rails than on a road. Granted roads then were not smooth, but that is one reason I would like to see comparisons on more up to date roads and rails.

A llot of money has recently been spent on a conversion of an old railway line into a route for guided buses, and I feel it would have been better to have put the rails back. Just would like to see some info on comparisons.

[Nearholmer]

Wikipedia isn't such a bad resource!

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_resistance

 

In summary, a very hard rubber tyre, on a very smooth and firm surface does get pretty close to a steel wheel on a steel rail. If you are a cyclist, just try riding with slightly different tyre pressures, on a variety of quality of road surfaces to get a feel for all this.

 

But, there is so much else going on in terms of the broader economics and practicalities, that losses at the wheel/surface interface are unlikely to be a deciding factor between bus and team in isolation.

 

Kevin

[rue_d_etropal]

I did do a quick search, and a lot of conflicting info. Much does not take everything(roads in particular) into account. Trouble with internet is that you can never be certain who is pushing the buttons and the road lobby is very powerful. Just seen that another car manufacturer has been caught falsifying emission figures. They are desperate to push their case, but the tide is starting to turn. I just want to push it back a bit more.

At least one site I found, said data was old, and things change. Did find an interesting one from USA, which compared cost of building a new light rail system, against a road, and said that once you start adding in cost of cars to people, it starts to slide towards light rail, and even more so when cost of increasing number of lanes on road to cope with delays in rush hour. Unfortunately did not bookmark the site, which is odd as I normally do.