BR ex LMS Bogie Coal Hoppers

[BrushVeteran]

I am in the process of converting some H0 Roco and Lima DB Bogie Coal Hoppers into a fairly dimensionally acurate version of the ex. LMS 40 ton Bogie Hoppers that were once used on the Toton-Stonebridge Park working. They were built by BRCW in 1929 to LMS diagram D1708 as lot no. 457 and were numbered 189301-189330 later carrying the M prefix in BR days. What I am looking for are some decent images showing the lettering that was applied to them during their final BR days in order that I can produce some transfers. I have some photos of them in LMS days and the couple I have of them in BR days barely shows any lettering such is the external state of the wagons. I am led to believe they lasted until 1965 and were occasionally double headed by Class 24's after the demise of steam. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

[DavidBelcher]

Sadly I cannot pinpoint the exact source of the photo I've seen (could well be Gavin Morrison's "London Midland: Then & Now" but don't take that as cast-iron) but seem to recall from it that British Railways was spelt out in full on these wagons in the "sausage" logo as used on lamp-posts etc. on the right-hand section of the bodyside.

 

David

[Tim Lewis]

I am in the process of converting some H0 Roco and Lima DB Bogie Coal Hoppers into a fairly dimensionally acurate version of the ex. LMS 40 ton Bogie Hoppers that were once used on the Toton-Stonebridge Park working. They were built by BRCW in 1929 to LMS diagram D1708 as lot no. 457 and were numbered 189301-189330 later carrying the M prefix in BR days. What I am looking for are some decent images showing the lettering that was applied to them during their final BR days in order that I can produce some transfers. I have some photos of them in LMS days and the couple I have of them in BR days barely shows any lettering such is the external state of the wagons. I am led to believe they lasted until 1965 and were occasionally double headed by Class 24's after the demise of steam. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

 

Browsing in WH Smith today, there is a colour picture of a 9F on a train of these hoppers. I think it was in the latest Steam Days, but possibly another mag. Although a nice pic, I'm not sure it will help you much with lettering, as they're some distance away and not especially clean!

 

Sadly I cannot pinpoint the exact source of the photo I've seen (could well be Gavin Morrison's "London Midland: Then & Now" but don't take that as cast-iron) but seem to recall from it that British Railways was spelt out in full on these wagons in the "sausage" logo as used on lamp-posts etc. on the right-hand section of the bodyside.

 

David

 

The Tyne Dock-Consett ones certainly had these logos, but I don't know about the LMS ones.

[BrushVeteran]

Sadly I cannot pinpoint the exact source of the photo I've seen (could well be Gavin Morrison's "London Midland: Then & Now" but don't take that as cast-iron) but seem to recall from it that British Railways was spelt out in full on these wagons in the "sausage" logo as used on lamp-posts etc. on the right-hand section of the bodyside.

 

David

Thanks David

I'll try and look out for this book. Sounds like a very interesting logo! Not seen it modelled before.

[BrushVeteran]

Browsing in WH Smith today, there is a colour picture of a 9F on a train of these hoppers. I think it was in the latest Steam Days, but possibly another mag. Although a nice pic, I'm not sure it will help you much with lettering, as they're some distance away and not especially clean!

 

 

 

The Tyne Dock-Consett ones certainly had these logos, but I don't know about the LMS ones.

Thanks Tim

Something else for me to look out for. I remember seeing these wagons regularly when up to visit my relatives in Wembley but they were always so filthy (the wagons not my relatives!). As you say most of the images available today show them in this state. Although I shall be weathering mine I would like to get the graphics correct.

[Invicta]

Thanks Tim

Something else for me to look out for. I remember seeing these wagons regularly when up to visit my relatives in Wembley but they were always so filthy (the wagons not my relatives!). As you say most of the images available today show them in this state. Although I shall be weathering mine I would like to get the graphics correct.

 

A pic in Essery's Illustrated History of LMS Wagons vol1 shows M189327 in 1964, displaying what the caption describes as 'the final livery style carried by these wagons. Unfortunately the wagon is fairly dirty and the livery details aren't clear apart from the weight and number on the left of the LH door, directly above the wagon plate and label clip:

 

 

There may well be some lettering at the RH end (tare etc?) but can't make it out. If there's any other lettering ,it's buried under a layer of grime. They're impressive-looking beasts though- a rake of those would look good on a layout

 

Incidentally, the pic shows a single wagon coupled between a 16-tonner and what looks like a bogie bolster, and according to the caption was taken at Coalville- slightly off their usual Toton-Stonebridge Park route, so I'm wondering if it was taken while the wagon was visiting the Marcroft works for repair-the buildings in the background suggest that location?

[56c]

There have been some developments on this one. In February 2013, Keith Bristow ran a constructional article in Model Rail with some excellent historical pictures. I've been chipping in on the historical front and have put up a series of pictures on my website that should help clear up the grey areas discussed above:

www.steve-banks.org

We should both be at the Ally Pally Show on my Coach Building demo.

Edited March 12, 2014 by 56c

[45568]

BV,

I carried out a similar exercise a few months ago. I sent pictures to John Peck of Precision Labels and he made me a set of bespoke transfers for numbers, weight and tare weight. Also branding 'Stonebridge Park P.S. Traffic Only' which was not actually carried in service.

I believe specially ordered decals later go into Precision's general list, so these may be useful to you.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[Rail-Online]

BV,

 

These usually worked from Shipley Colliery Nottingham and were 8F hauled in steam days. I have seen a pic somewhere of one behind a AC electric (IIRC class 86) at Northampton and it looked very strange!

 

Tony

[Fat Controller]

BV,

 

These usually worked from Shipley Colliery Nottingham and were 8F hauled in steam days. I have seen a pic somewhere of one behind a AC electric (IIRC class 86) at Northampton and it looked very strange!

 

Tony

It was on the site of someone who posts on here; possibly taken by his father.

[Rail-Online]

It was on the site of someone who posts on here; possibly taken by his father.

Yes that rings a bell, all his photos were in or around Northampton in 1964-5 I think.

 

Tony

[Fat Controller]

Yes that rings a bell, all his photos were in or around Northampton in 1964-5 I think.

 

Tony

Et voila..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/the-evanses/7203776038/in/set-72157625207202622

[56c]

Here's another picture from the '60s: http://www.flickr.com/photos/13296226@N02/13102409763/

The ex-LMS cast iron plates were still in place, but I'm not sure about the BCRW builder's plates in the middle, which do show in LMS and earlier BR-period pictures. Is anything available for either in 4mm scale? I've put detail pictures of the wagons on the website (http://www.steve-banks.org). See under "LMS coal - the 40T hoppers".

 

Steve

Edited March 13, 2014 by 56c

[bingley hall]

I've often wondered, was there any connection (design-wise) between these and their similar looking German counterparts?

[Fat Controller]

I've often wondered, was there any connection (design-wise) between these and their similar looking German counterparts?

Or indeed the wagons used for iron ore from Tyne Dock to Consett or gravel to Chichester.. I think it's just a case of 'form follows function'.

[56c]

bingley hall, on 15 Mar 2014 - 06:57, said:

I've often wondered, was there any connection (design-wise) between these and their similar looking German counterparts?

 

 

bingley hall, on 15 Mar 2014 - 06:57, said:

Or indeed the wagons used for iron ore from Tyne Dock to Consett or gravel to Chichester.. I think it's just a case of 'form follows function'.

 

The LMS chose the design after visiting the US and Germany. This is described in Keith Bristow's 4-page article in Model Rail, February 2013. 

The same concept was used for the Tyne-Dock-Consett iron ore trains. 

 

As far as I know, these were the only trains in the UK to adopt the side-door concept. "Gravel to Chichester" is a new one to me, can you shed any more light, please?

 

Steve

http://www.steve-banks.org

[jonhall]

 

As far as I know, these were the only trains in the UK to adopt the side-door concept. "Gravel to Chichester" is a new one to me, can you shed any more light, please?

 

Francis Parker had 10 on a pretty small loop between Lavant and somewhere else in the Chichester area. I always thought the load was sand.

 

 

http://petertandy.co.uk/electrics/lavant_wagons.jpg

 

 

http://petertandy.co.uk/electrics/73004_lavant_28489.jpg

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/544-southern-region-photos-1980s/page-5

 

https://flic.kr/p/3Jr2T4

 

https://flic.kr/p/3JvPaY

 

 

Jon

[56c]

jonhall, on 16 Mar 2014 - 09:01, said:

Francis Parker had 10 on a pretty small loop between Lavant and somewhere else in the Chichester area. I always thought the load was sand.

 

francisparker.jpg

 

http://petertandy.co.uk/electrics/lavant_wagons.jpg

 

 

http://petertandy.co.uk/electrics/73004_lavant_28489.jpg

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/544-southern-region-photos-1980s/page-5

 

https://flic.kr/p/3Jr2T4

 

https://flic.kr/p/3JvPaY

 

 

Jon

 

Thank you Jon, that's quite an education and rather well done.  

I shall put my partner in crime on the case... he's the real expert but I already know that it's come out of the blue to him too. How have we missed this development?!

 

By the way, reading the small print, I notice clever applications of steel for the body that were not available when the previous generations of side-discharge hopper wagons were built by the LMS and BR. Creusabro steel is a high, wear-resistant grade while Corten is a grade that self-weathers with a pleasing, natural brown finish that obviates the need for painting, hence the warm brown appearance of the wagons in most of the service pictures. Corten has also been used architecturally because of this pleasing and maintenance-free finish, so quite why these wagons seem to have been delivered new painted grey is puzzling!  

 

Steve

http://www.steve-banks.com

[Fat Controller]

There were also a small number of four-wheeled Salt wagons that BR built, using the same idea; they didn't last very long, however, and the traffic subsequently returned to wooden-bodied wagons.

[LNERGE]

I think this is an amazing photo.. I thought these hoppers disappeared long before this.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/the-evanses/7203776038/in/faves-32297024@N08/

[jonhall]

I've often wondered, was there any connection (design-wise) between these and their similar looking German counterparts?

 

I would think they were built under licence from whichever of the continental manufacturers had a patent.

 

I think it goes to show what a disgrace pretty much every mineral wagon built by BR up until the HAA were, when a modern design like this was only built in the tens, and goodness knows how may thousand other wagons were turned out that were barely superior to the pre-grouping designs.

 

Jon

[dvdlcs]

I think it goes to show what a disgrace pretty much every mineral wagon built by BR up until the HAA were, when a modern design like this was only built in the tens, and goodness knows how may thousand other wagons were turned out that were barely superior to the pre-grouping designs.

 

Jon

 

Hello.

 

Drifting a little off-topic...

 

I was under the impression that the loading screens at collieries were the limiting factor in wagon designs. Even why some of the larger (21t/24t) minerals weren't built in greater numbers and often only used on specific circuits; the wooden or steel tub on a 2 axle 9' or 10' wheelbase was all that could be handled in the majority of places.

 

Hope this helps,

 

David.

[Fat Controller]

Hello.

 

Drifting a little off-topic...

 

I was under the impression that the loading screens at collieries were the limiting factor in wagon designs. Even why some of the larger (21t/24t) minerals weren't built in greater numbers and often only used on specific circuits; the wooden or steel tub on a 2 axle 9' or 10' wheelbase was all that could be handled in the majority of places.

 

Hope this helps,

 

David.

 

There were two issues that led to the ongoing survival of the 16t mineral. One was the issue of colliery screens being low (the mine-owners, and later the NCB, tried to limit the drop the coal had during loading, to reduce degradation). Only a limited number of South Wales pits, for example, had their screens modified to take the 21t hopper when the Coal Concentration programme started.

The second was resistance from merchants to having to take loads much larger than about 16t; few would use more than one or two wagons per week, so would be obliged to either double-handle coal to a stocking area, or pay demurrage on the wagons if they chose to use that for a bunker.

[56c]

jonhall, on 16 Mar 2014 - 23:16, said:jonhall, on 16 Mar 2014 - 23:16, said:jonhall, on 16 Mar 2014 - 23:16, said:jonhall, on 16 Mar 2014 - 23:16, said:

I would think they were built under licence from whichever of the continental manufacturers had a patent.

 

I think it goes to show what a disgrace pretty much every mineral wagon built by BR up until the HAA were, when a modern design like this was only built in the tens, and goodness knows how may thousand other wagons were turned out that were barely superior to the pre-grouping designs.

 

Jon

 

 

dvdlcs, on 17 Mar 2014 - 10:52, said:dvdlcs, on 17 Mar 2014 - 10:52, said:dvdlcs, on 17 Mar 2014 - 10:52, said:

Hello.

 

Drifting a little off-topic...

 

I was under the impression that the loading screens at collieries were the limiting factor in wagon designs. Even why some of the larger (21t/24t) minerals weren't built in greater numbers and often only used on specific circuits; the wooden or steel tub on a 2 axle 9' or 10' wheelbase was all that could be handled in the majority of places.

 

Hope this helps,

 

David.

 

I should first say that these hoppers "were built under licence" is supposition, for which there is no evidence. They were designed by the LMS at Derby and built by the Birminghan Rly Carriage & Wagon Co.

 

Blaming BR for continuation of previous policy is the wrong target. Dvdlcs and Fat Controller are nearer the mark. When built, both the LMS and BRCW tried hard to get the concept adopted more widely but the size of the wagons required rebuilding of colliery screens designed for much lower wagons - and the fact is that in the UK there were some 3,000 collieries of which 90% were small. There was never any prospect of such a radical change being adopted - and for the LMS only two collieries went ahead. The NER had scaled up to bottom-discharge bogie hoppers before the Great War (likewise for dedicated runs) and 4w bottom discharge hoppers became the norm there and more widely thereafter with modern steel hoppers built by the LNER, LMS and BR. Continued construction of non-hopper wagons was for the needs of smaller companies not equipped for bottom-discharge.

 

The side-discharge concept was eventually adopted (c1956 and c1971) but it was, like the LMS traffic, for strictly dedicated runs and not for coal but iron ore and gravel.

 

Steve

http://www.steve-banks.org

Edited March 17, 2014 by 56c

[Fat Controller]

Even within mainland Europe, the side-unloading hopper is far from universal; they're most popular in Germany, whilst France, for example, seems to prefer bottom-emptying hoppers with sufficent clearance to put a portable conveyer twixt rail-head and hopper door. The Fals (?) hoppers do run in France, but mainly carring loads to Germany.