37114 Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 I decided that to ensure Bachmann annouce a MK1 BSO coach next year, I would make my own model on the basis that manufacturers usually announce a model after I have made one. I have no idea if a BSO is right for my Bristol based layout but fancied the challenge of some proper modelling and thought it maybe of interest to other RM Web members. The approach I have taken is very similar to that taken by "acg5324" to make a 2mm version in that I decided I would use Bachmann BSK donor vehicles and "cut and shut" the windows and doors to the right arrangement. As all my other coaches are Bachmann approach makes sense in providing a uniform look to the coaching rake rather than using a Comet kit. The sides are removable in the Bachmann coaches so this makes this work easier. The problem with this approach is 2 donor BSK coaches are needed to provide the raw materials and in addition open seating is required to replace the corridor interior. Luckily I acquired 2 unboxed BSKs at a show earlier in the year for a very reasonable price albeit in the wrong livery. The livery is partly irrelevant as a full respray is required but painting the window bars/vents is time consuming and tricky. I started with the roof which is very different to a BSK as there are less vents and they are in different places, as are the periscopes which for my era need to be removed: Next new vents need to be added which are MJT which I had in the spares box. I removed the periscope closest to the centre completly and left the outline of the one closest to the guards section which is in the correct place. I then made the outline of a new periscope closer to the end of the guards section: On to the sides, you need 2 BSK sides to create one BSO as additional windows are needed for the passenger section of the coach. If you were producing a number of these coaches, you could potentially chop up an SO which would provide sections for multiple coaches and 2 interiors. The first cut is highlighted below, basically you cut one side in front of the door next to the guards window and the other in front of the last passenger window: To jump ahead I have highlighted all of the other cuts and which bits make up the final side: The eagle eyed will spot the outline of 2 small windows drawn on the side, one on the left near the door and the other at the extreme right of the coach. The window on the left needs carving out as it is not present on the BSK. I had hoped to use a section of Window from the guards van at the right hand end which the approach acg5234 had taken on the 2mm version. The 4mm coaches however have a recess at the end of the side which overlaps the gangway end. To carve this recess cleanly would have been difficult so I made a new window opening in the existing end component: The above approach means there are less joins on the coach as each side is only 3 pieces and as one join is at a door only 2 need filling/smoothing. The photo below shows the component pieces loosely placed on the chassis before I ran out of time: Next up is to finish adding the new window then onto the otherside. So far so good.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodmin Bob Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 I decided that to ensure Bachmann annouce a MK1 BSO coach next year, I would make my own model on the basis that manufacturers usually announce a model after I have made one. I have no idea if a BSO is right for my Bristol based layout but fancied the challenge of some proper modelling and thought it maybe of interest to other RM Web members. The approach I have taken is very similar to that taken by "acg5324" to make a 2mm version in that I decided I would use Bachmann BSK donor vehicles and "cut and shut" the windows and doors to the right arrangement. As all my other coaches are Bachmann approach makes sense in providing a uniform look to the coaching rake rather than using a Comet kit. The sides are removable in the Bachmann coaches so this makes this work easier. The problem with this approach is 2 donor BSK coaches are needed to provide the raw materials and in addition open seating is required to replace the corridor interior. Luckily I acquired 2 unboxed BSKs at a show earlier in the year for a very reasonable price albeit in the wrong livery. The livery is partly irrelevant as a full respray is required but painting the window bars/vents is time consuming and tricky. I started with the roof which is very different to a BSK as there are less vents and they are in different places, as are the periscopes which for my era need to be removed: DSCN1770.JPG Next new vents need to be added which are MJT which I had in the spares box. I removed the periscope closest to the centre completly and left the outline of the one closest to the guards section which is in the correct place. I then made the outline of a new periscope closer to the end of the guards section: DSCN1771.JPG On to the sides, you need 2 BSK sides to create one BSO as additional windows are needed for the passenger section of the coach. If you were producing a number of these coaches, you could potentially chop up an SO which would provide sections for multiple coaches and 2 interiors. The first cut is highlighted below, basically you cut one side in front of the door next to the guards window and the other in front of the last passenger window: DSCN1772.JPG To jump ahead I have highlighted all of the other cuts and which bits make up the final side: DSCN1776.JPG The eagle eyed will spot the outline of 2 small windows drawn on the side, one on the left near the door and the other at the extreme right of the coach. The window on the left needs carving out as it is not present on the BSK. I had hoped to use a section of Window from the guards van at the right hand end which the approach acg5234 had taken on the 2mm version. The 4mm coaches however have a recess at the end of the side which overlaps the gangway end. To carve this recess cleanly would have been difficult so I made a new window opening in the existing end component: DSCN1774.JPG DSCN1778.JPG The above approach means there are less joins on the coach as each side is only 3 pieces and as one join is at a door only 2 need filling/smoothing. The photo below shows the component pieces loosely placed on the chassis before I ran out of time: DSCN1779.JPG Next up is to finish adding the new window then onto the otherside. So far so good.... Hi I hadn't realised that the Mk 1 BSK and BSO's were so different from each other - have you considered Comet brass coach side overlays as an alternative (and potentially easier) option? Regards Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 It is good to see some good old fashioned modelling for a change! Seeing what is in effect a kitbash took me back to the days of Kitmaster over 50 years ago when the likes of Alan Williams used to cut up kits and produce all sorts of things from the bits. The advantage of using Bachmann sides is that you get the flush glazing. In addition, some Comet sides have oddities in the dimensions. I have a set of BCK sides which do not quite match the Bachmann ones and until I find the time to go and measure one of the 37 preserved examples I cab't be certain whether either is right. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted September 27, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 27, 2015 Rob, you are a brave man! I'll be following your work with interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 Hi I hadn't realised that the Mk 1 BSK and BSO's were so different from each other - have you considered Comet brass coach side overlays as an alternative (and potentially easier) option? Regards Bob Hi Bob, Yes they are very different, on first glance the BCK looks to be closer to a BSO but the window spacing is different and is just as involved when it comes to guards area. I had considered Comet sides but the finished coach would stand out in comparison to others in the rake and as Chris F said you loose the flush glazing. The photos probably make the work look more involved than it actually is, it only took me 1h 30m to achieve the above progress as the cutting is pretty straightforward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 Rob, you are a brave man! I'll be following your work with interest. Thanks Trevor, I love a challenge! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 It is good to see some good old fashioned modelling for a change! Seeing what is in effect a kitbash took me back to the days of Kitmaster over 50 years ago when the likes of Alan Williams used to cut up kits and produce all sorts of things from the bits. The advantage of using Bachmann sides is that you get the flush glazing. In addition, some Comet sides have oddities in the dimensions. I have a set of BCK sides which do not quite match the Bachmann ones and until I find the time to go and measure one of the 37 preserved examples I cab't be certain whether either is right. Chris Thanks Chris, I can't help on the measurements I am afraid, I mostly work on the "if it looks right it is right principle!" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted September 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 28, 2015 Many thanks for sharing this Rob Its a project I have on the list - its stayed there in the hope that Bachmann might save me the trouble but it will have to come up the list along with a BFK if they don't..... Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted September 28, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 28, 2015 Hi Rob Real modelling I have in my filing cabinets an article form the early 60s about cutting and shutting Kitmaster coaches. I know the BFK and BCK were some of them not too sure if the BSO was. I did start to cut about some Tri-ang Mk1s into a BSO and a BFK to make the Romford overhead wiring train.................another project on hold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I believe Tim Easter has produced one for Peterborough North, by cut and shut. Here's my comet sided version with an SK along side. Note how close the colours match apologize for the poor quality photo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 I believe Tim Easter has produced one for Peterborough North, by cut and shut. Here's my comet sided version with an SK along side. Note how close the colours match 24112011143_a.jpg apologize for the poor quality photo That looks excellent David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 Hi Rob Real modelling I have in my filing cabinets an article form the early 60s about cutting and shutting Kitmaster coaches. I know the BFK and BCK were some of them not too sure if the BSO was. I did start to cut about some Tri-ang Mk1s into a BSO and a BFK to make the Romford overhead wiring train.................another project on hold. Thanks Clive, I will have to have a look at doing a BFK, I will have a few left over sections of coach from this job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted September 28, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 28, 2015 I had considered Comet sides but the finished coach would stand out in comparison to others in the rake and as Chris F said you loose the flush glazing. The photos probably make the work look more involved than it actually is, it only took me 1h 30m to achieve the above progress as the cutting is pretty straightforward. I think the 'flush glazing' would look really good if you did a Comet sides job and although I hate to disagree with Chris I believe a well glazed etched side gives a better representation of the real window depth. I do agree that some Comet sides can be a 'bit imaginative' (I've looked at the Bulleids and some are 'interesting', but still look really good in comparison to the now dated Baccy ones). OK there's more to it than just a bit of whizzy sawing, but look at davidw's....lovely job. Remember that one has just to remove almost all the original sides and just pop on the etches that you might well have detailed and painted before the glue on! You will enjoy doing one.....really you will. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Very interesting discussion , as I have a pair of etched Comet sides for a BSO in the cupboard and an old Lima BG which is earmarked as the basic bodyshell for a future project (when I receive a 40'HC box of round tuits from the factory in Shenzhen) The Comet sides look thin enough to me to be acceptable as flushglaze - my big hesitation with the project is being able to do a good job of blue/grey with white lining , using spray cans. It's the neatness of the boundary between the colours that scares me. Since there is no plastic BSO available I'm not so worried about the possibility of some hidden inaccuracy in the sides Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 That looks excellent David Two more to do one in maroon and one in Crimson Cream. I originally had another by commission but this warped not the builders fault Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 The Comet sides look thin enough to me to be acceptable as flushglaze - my big hesitation with the project is being able to do a good job of blue/grey with white lining , using spray cans. It's the neatness of the boundary between the colours that scares me. Since there is no plastic BSO available I'm not so worried about the possibility of some hidden inaccuracy in the sides Hopefully this thread will help overcome your hesitation as this coach will be sprayed Blue Grey using spray cans and the white lining will be transfers, I am apprehensive as well to be honest. I have done a Southern Pride Newton Chambers car carrier the same way and it came out ok. Interesting debate about the comet sides vs cut and shut, merits to both ways I guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I think the 'flush glazing' would look really good if you did a Comet sides job and although I hate to disagree with Chris I believe a well glazed etched side gives a better representation of the real window depth. Don't be afraid to disagree! The world needs healthy debates and there is more than one way to skin a cat. There is one point about the Mk 1 that may be relevant. Although the sides have a continuous curve, the sides are pressed flat where the windows go to avoid having to get curved glass. Bulleid's coaches have the same curve but he used curved glass! If I were making a Bulleid coach with brass sides I would see no alternative to fitting the glazing closely behind the windows. Better still would be the Southern Pride sides. Bachmann's approach to the Mk 1 mimics that of Kitmaster, who got it right way back in 1960. It is a pity that they made their Bulleids with window sills and short of scale length but we have come a long way since then. This is dangerously close to a hi-jack, for which I apologise. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 Any more movement on this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted October 3, 2015 Author Share Posted October 3, 2015 Any more movement on this? Hi David, the timing of your post was quite freaky as I awoke at 5.16 this morning unable to sleep so I have been busy on the coach! I have focussed on finishing the sides firstly. I have made the 3 windows in the side of the coach (circled below), the process is outlined in the last post. I have glued the 3 sections together, I used superglue and used the coach chassis to help align the sides while the glue set. One advantage of having 2 donor coaches the same colour is you can use the lining as a guide to alignment. There are only 2 joints each side to fill and they are both away from a door which makes the filing process easier as you don't have to worry about losing any door furniture in the process. The photo below shows the coach with filler rubbed down, in readiness for a coat of primer to see how much refilling is required: With the chopping finished, the next consideration is how to fit the sides back to the roof as the roof clips into the sides. As 2 of the 3 sections of the side are in their original position most of the clips align but the section by the guards door needs one of the slots enlarging and a small locating pin removing, before and after photo below: In addition to the above work one of the lugs needs removing from the roof which I show in a later post as the roof is in the spray booth at present. With the bodyside finished I briefly turned my attention to the underframe section, removing all bar the bottom step on each end as these were removed by the time my layout is set (1977). The next bit of work planned is to remove and replace the footboards and associated steps before getting on with the painting. So far so good and this is proving to be a very enjoyable project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 Loving the details. I'm wondering about your method for further versions. I couldn't sleep either Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted October 3, 2015 Author Share Posted October 3, 2015 Loving the details. I'm wondering about your method for further versions. I couldn't sleep either Thanks David, I am looking at the options for doing a BFK as I have quite a few left over bits unsurprisingly. I always have poor nights sleep the night before I exhibit at a show, ironically todays one is only 5 miles away. I am hoping I can lay my hands on a Replica SO interior for the BSO as it will hopefully be easier than making my own Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted October 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 3, 2015 Thanks David, I am looking at the options for doing a BFK as I have quite a few left over bits unsurprisingly. I always have poor nights sleep the night before I exhibit at a show, ironically todays one is only 5 miles away. I am hoping I can lay my hands on a Replica SO interior for the BSO as it will hopefully be easier than making my own Hi rob replica still selling those bought one at show earlier in the year Cheers phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted October 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 3, 2015 Has anyone on this thread built a S Pride BSO? I have only built the older style kits that had the pre printed sides. I think the current MK1s are of this type as well. I only ask as I have found the SP Kits to be an inexpensive way to supplement my stock; with some additional WM parts they look OK for 'layout coaches' as TW would call them. I'm just sorry the Bulleid range went as there were several that are not otherwise available AFAIK. Comet sides are slightly long for Baccy Bulleid RTRs but that isn't really difficult to fettle. I'm told that Comet Sides are also a little long for SP parts. However I've not measured that up myself. Presumably Comet MK1 sides are OK for RTR conversions? Are they OK for SPride 'conversions'? Reason I'm mumbling on is that I could do with a load of 'dining' stock. I've had another look at the Replica site and I think there could be mileage in using some of their parts too. I'd forgotten that there are MK1 64' Green MK1 Suburbans available as kits. I might have a go at some of those and see how they 'scrub up'. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimbus Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 There is one point about the Mk 1 that may be relevant. Although the sides have a continuous curve, the sides are pressed flat where the windows go to avoid having to get curved glass. [...] Bachmann's approach to the Mk 1 mimics that of Kitmaster, who got it right way back in 1960. It was almost right. The prototype main panes and the ventilator section above the horizontal dividing bar each had a flatted section in the panelling, so that the associated panes lay on separate chords to the side curvature. It gives a subtle difference to the appearance when reflecting light, but would require more work to create the model tooling. The Nim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted October 3, 2015 Author Share Posted October 3, 2015 Hi rob replica still selling those bought one at show earlier in the year Cheers phil Thanks Phil, Unfortunately I was unable to get my hands on one today so will have to try in the shop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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