Light Railway operations / signalling ? help required

[RailWest]

>>>Or, declare yourself a tramway, and not bother with any trapping.....

 

But the Weymouth Quay line was a tramway and that had traps (but no FPLs), :-)

[AndiMax]

Leaving a locomotive on the vehicles in the runaround loop is a good option and will certainly be followed whenever inspectors show up

 

If the "scotch-block st s3, and that could be an old sleeper, chained and padlocked to the rails" that Kevin proposes is an option, isn't the grade there also one. The picture shows that the 3 plank waggon on the old flat bottom track sits significantly deeper than the two vehicles in the runaround loop on the new bullhead track. Even on my model it tends to roll downwards if left at the grade at the entry to the coal yard siding (the siding itself is level).

 

Hindering the conversion to Tramway standards might be the height of my platforms as can be spoted in the 2nd attachment (again unfinished: mortar in the platform curb (individual stones) is missing, as well the sheet metal planking of the station building).

 

I know Gleissperren (fixed and mobile ones) but never have seen a 1930s/40s scotch-block. Is there a photo around?

[Echo]

There was a fairly high platform at Wantage.

[Nearholmer]

Chris - but that is a "railway tramway", not a "tramway tramway". ;-)

 

AndiMax - top quality fixed scotch-blocks were effectively the same as fixed gleissperren, but there were all sorts of much cruder things too, which amounted to large pieces of timber that hinged across or over the rails.

 

Anyway, I think that the gradient renders a scotch-block unnecessary at s3, so we now have trapping resolved at no cost!

 

Echo - ditto Brill and several of the other "stations" on the Brill Tramway, at least for some of its history. I seem to remember that one of them is sort of still there. Westcott maybe?

 

And, there was the Selsey & Hundred of Manhood Tramway, a.k.a West Sussex Tramway, which was really more of a light railway .......... And that had raised platforms. It might even have had the odd signal, but I'd need to check on that.

 

It's always the exceptions that prove the rule!

 

Kevin

[AndiMax]

Based on all this information I checked my books again with sharpened eyes and like to share this here for the interested:

• “Scotch Block”: The Wantage Tramway definitely ignored the rule that there always has to be a locomotive on the vehicles in the loop. I’ve found a picture of No 7 switching cars on the loop by means of a chain. These vehicles had to be “loose” at least between leaving them on the loop and fixing the chain. As scotch block they used a beam which you can spot in Wilkinson, Reg: The Wantage Tramway, p. 85.
• Position of the Home signal: At Blodwell Junction the Home signals were exactly at the toe of the first switch despite some odd switching manoeuvres as described in Lloyd, Mike: The Tanat Valley Light Railway, p. 23 (pictures).
• Facing Point Locks can be spotted i. e. on the K&ESR. You can see them on p. 197 (Tenterden) and with groundframe on p. 218 in the book of Brian Hart, details on pages 171 – 175.
  The Selsey Tramway had weighted point levers instead of FPLs as you can see on the Barry Slip at Chichester i. e. Cooksey, Laurie A.: The Selsey Tramway, Vol. 2, page 193.
• Platform height: Wantage was high but still a little bit lower than the usual railway platform (see page 76 – 77 in the book mentioned above, compare to coal waggon). The standard height of the platforms on the Selsey that Kevin mentioned can be spotted on (p. 189).

The FPLs on the K&ESR are of a very simple design so I might go for this. As I’m throwing all switches locally with a manual mechanism and not with electronic devices I should be able to go along without the aid of a Volkswagen software engineer.

[AndiMax]

Apologies to all interested in this topic. I had to file my tax return and thus had no time to expedite this issue.

The layout esp. signalling, trapping and facing point locks evolved to what is shown in the picture below (with two ground frames instead of a signal box at Jackfield also possible).

 

An open issue still is passing trains at Jackfield.

Kevin “Nearholmer” wrote: "officially" you can only pass a passenger and a goods train at Jackfield, since there is only one platform, but if you put FPLs on all the point-ends, you could pass two passenger trains.

 

Having in my mind that the WLRy is a line always short of budget and that train passing at Jackfield weren’t planed when the railway was built I’d like to describe passing operations as they have been in use on German Nebenbahnen and like to discuss with you whether these could have taken place on a British light railway in a similar manner.

 

Let’s assume “down” trains have priority because they must arrive at the junction in time. The “up” train – passenger or mixed – arrives at Jackfield platform first and lets local passengers debark. The train then sets back clear of point S3 (the F indicating an FPL) and pulls forward to track 2, the “loop”. S3 is set to the mainline again. Now the staff and ticket for block 1 is given to the station master. In the meantime the “down” passenger train arrived and is waiting in front of the home signal. The train is allowed to pull forward and stops at the platform as soon as the station master has received staff 1. “Down” now exchanges his staffs and after receiving a ticket for block 1 can continue towards the junction.

 

“Up” now receives staff & ticket for block 2, sets back clear of S3, and pulls forward to the platform. While all switches are set correct “up” passengers still have a chance to embark and roughly 10 minutes after arriving at Jackfield (without switching of goods) the “up” train may continue towards Wanford.

 

In the scenario described the staffs must not carry keys required at Jackfield. In Germany all keys required at Jackfield would have been locked at Jackfield or been in the hand of the station master equivalent.

 

Andreas

[The Stationmaster]

Right - need for some basics I think.

 

I. A train would not be carrying the staff and a ticket.  Trains would be passed on a Ticket, having been shown the Train Staff, until the final one of that group in that direction which would carry the Train Staff (and therefore would not need a Ticket).  The Ticket is simply a way of creating extra parts of a Train Staff to allow a succession of trains in the same direction through a section.

 

2.  The situation you seem to have created is a signalbox at Jackfield (i.e it divides two separate block sections) so nothing there would be released by a Train Staff or key - it would be operated by someone trained as a Signalman).

 

3. At Wanford you have, at present, a ground frame (there should in fact be two) and it can only be released by the Train Staff which means a train arriving with a ticket cannot open the frame - interesting conundrum then!  The important thing to understand is that the key to unlock lever frames is physically part of the Train Staff and cannot be separated from it.

 

4. Technically there is nothing to prevent passengers being detrained at Jackfield to allow a passenger train to use the loop - in reality a remotely located railway probably wouldn't even bother with teh detraining and would simply ignore the requirement.  After all some well known light railway were photographed ignoring other legal Requirements on more than one occasion.

[AndiMax]

Mike

 

1) understood, in my case (no trains in groups) giving the staff is sufficient.

 

2) The key locked at Jackfield would only be necessary if - for economic reasons - Jackfield would not be staffed with a stationmaster. In this case the guard (at least he was in charge in Germany) of the train arriving first at the station takes the role of the stationmaster and manages the passing of trains.

 

3) You mentioned this before: 2nd ground frame and signal close to the platform end. But why is this necessary? It might make sense if there is no station master and the guard (see 2.) releases the train and then hops on …

 

4) This would make passing much easier but at the expense of some fun …

 

Andreas

[The Stationmaster]

On a light railway the lever/ground frame operating facing points in a passenger line has to be next to those points.  If not then a full length lock(ing) bar is required as on an ordinary railway - in order to get round that the lever was placed next to the points.

 

The situation you are creating at Jackfield - with two sections ending there - requires someone passed to act as a Signalman to be there in order to accept trains.  On a light railway this could reasomnably be any qualified member of teh station staff but it would most likely be either a signalman, or the Stationmaster or a Porter Signalman.

[Nearholmer]

Agree about the ground frames, see my recommendations about Jackfield in post 16.

 

But, I'm far from sure that it is necessary to have a member of station staff to act as "block man". I think that it is possible for train guards to deal with this, at an unstaffed station - I'm not totally sure about the situation if it involves issuing a "ticket", but if it only involves the "staff" for each section then it seems fairly simple.

 

I have a recollection of seeing the guard of a train unlock the station at Aberfrwdd on the VoR, put the staff for one section on a hook on the wall, take the staff for the next section, and lock-up behind him (there was no train to pass on this occasion) - this was in the early 1970s, so a bit of a dim recollection!

 

What do you think, SM?

 

Kevin

[The Stationmaster]

Agree about the ground frames, see my recommendations about Jackfield in post 16.

 

But, I'm far from sure that it is necessary to have a member of station staff to act as "block man". I think that it is possible for train guards to deal with this, at an unstaffed station - I'm not totally sure about the situation if it involves issuing a "ticket", but if it only involves the "staff" for each section then it seems fairly simple.

 

I have a recollection of seeing the guard of a train unlock the station at Aberfrwdd on the VoR, put the staff for one section on a hook on the wall, take the staff for the next section, and lock-up behind him (there was no train to pass on this occasion) - this was in the early 1970s, so a bit of a dim recollection!

 

What do you think, SM?

 

Kevin

It's an interesting proposition.  The Requirements are fairly explicit in respect of light railways with a reference to Block System -

An acceptable apparatus, where such is necessary at all, for providing adequate interval of space between following trains will be some form of telephone instrument 

 

So if there's a requirement for a telephone system the implication is that there would be someone there to talk on it for block signalling purposes, and the maintenance of a space interval between trains is still a requirement on a light railway (as is a system of separating trains in opposite direction of course).

 

However even on other than light railways systems operated solely by traincrew were coming in during the 1960s although in every case they were supervised by a nominated person at a fixed location (I suspect the VoR would have been worked in exactly that manner once the signalling had been 'rationalised'.  Nowadays such a way of working is common and I've even written Instructions for it for various light railways - but in every case there has been someone in overall control and I have actually been involved in stopping one (narrow gauge) line working an unsupervised arrangement where trains would cross on a single line with only the train crew involved, it is very difficut to write a safe way of doing it to modern standards.

 

Now there is also a considerable differeence between what was supposed to happen and what did happen in reality on the older light railways and as I've already mentioned photographic evidence indicates that some light railways 'went their own way'.  So the line would have been laid out and equipped in order to be allowed to operate at all but what then happened in practice could well have been rather different.  And obviously where Train Staff & Ticket working was in operations someone must have been present to control the working and decide train priorities.  On a railway with stations that would generally be fairly easy as most stations which handled passenger and parcel traffic tended to be staffed - even if only by one man and a dog.

 

So mixed views.  On balance the system would have been built to be manned in some way, in practice what could have happened might well have been very different from what was supposed to happen.

[Pacific231G]

Agree about the ground frames, see my recommendations about Jackfield in post 16.

 

But, I'm far from sure that it is necessary to have a member of station staff to act as "block man". I think that it is possible for train guards to deal with this, at an unstaffed station - I'm not totally sure about the situation if it involves issuing a "ticket", but if it only involves the "staff" for each section then it seems fairly simple.

 

I have a recollection of seeing the guard of a train unlock the station at Aberfrwdd on the VoR, put the staff for one section on a hook on the wall, take the staff for the next section, and lock-up behind him (there was no train to pass on this occasion) - this was in the early 1970s, so a bit of a dim recollection!

 

What do you think, SM?

 

Kevin

Until they moved to radio control a few years ago the LBNGR had token machines at Page's Park, Leedon Loop and Stonehenge along with a telephone circuit to enable crews to talk to control at Pages Park. They also had ground frames with the loop points unlocked using the relevant key.

 

According to G.C. Green's 1986 Wild Swan book about the VofR, between about 1952 and 1968 two GWR pattern train staffs with Annett's keys were in use with Aberffwyd as the intermediate telephone and staff exchange station with a passing loop. The station was unmanned and the train crews were responsible but they still reported by telephone. That fits in with what you saw and it's similar to what the LBNGR were doing except that no machines were involved. After 1968 (or from your account a few years later) the line was operated with a single staff and two tickets. These covered the whole line from Aberystwyth to Devils Bridge so you coudn't have an up and a down train on the line at once but a locked telephone at the mid point (Aberffrwd and later Nantyronen) enabled a second or even a third train in the same direction to depart from the terminus carrying the other ticket or the staff once the driver of the previous train had reported departing for the other terminus. The staff was always carried on the last train in any direction and nothing could return until it had reached the other end. A set of five keys were attached to the staff and each of the two tickets. None of them are large enough to be an Annett's key and they look more like two padlock keys, two Yale type door keys - presumably to get into buildings and one smaller key presuambly for the telephone cabinet. 

 

I don't know what system the VofR is worked on now. 

Edited October 3, 2015 by Pacific231G

[Nearholmer]

Thanks 231G

 

Trust the date given by Mr Green, not me.

 

And, now you mention it, I remember seeing what you describe on the LBNGR many times too.

 

Next one to check is the W&LLR in its original form.

 

Kevin

[Pacific231G]

Thanks 231G

 

Trust the date given by Mr Green, not me.

 

And, now you mention it, I remember seeing what you describe on the LBNGR many times too.

 

Next one to check is the W&LLR in its original form.

 

Kevin

I spent some time explaining it in the video I made with the LBNGR in about 2000 but they moved to radio control soon afterwards. ISTR that there were difficulties about having the cabinet at an unmanned loop out on the line in a residential area and I think the four Tyer key token machines went to the Severn Valley. Actually looking at the video - I don't seem to be able to get this machine to capture stills from it - the key attached to each token used to unlock the ground frame looks about the same size as the two I took to be padlock keys on the VofR's staff and tickets.

[AndiMax]

Thanks to all of you. The procedures described are very interesting and fortify me in my decision to model at least 2 stations + fiddle yard to ensure varied operations.

 

I'd like to come back to the issue of ground frames at Jackfield which seem to be preferable acc. to some of you. In post 16 Nearholmer said:

5) at Jackfield, two ground-frames, one at each end of the loop, each with two levers, one point, one FPL;

6) signs outside the loops, requiring incoming trains to stop, whistle, and wait until called forward from the platform;

7) guard of train then to go to station, set the required route (loop-siding or platform) if necessary, and call the train forward;

 

This raises some questions to me:

 

Seemingly the stop signs outside the loops would substitute the Home signals. Can anyone provide a photo of such a sign?

 

Calling the train forward could have been done by the guard with flags, arm or lamp waving as mentioned elsewhere (#4, Nearholmer).

 

Starting of trains: I think starting signals should have been obligatory in the 1940s as the train enters a new block. And in 1940 it’s very likely that the station was manned so a lever frame at the platform is an economic solution. This combination – 2 ground frames + 1 lever frame at the platform could be found i. e. at the Culm Valley at Uffculme. But maybe someone knows of a station where two sections ended that came along without starters?

 

Andreas

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks to all of you. The procedures described are very interesting and fortify me in my decision to model at least 2 stations + fiddle yard to ensure varied operations.

 

I'd like to come back to the issue of ground frames at Jackfield which seem to be preferable acc. to some of you. In post 16 Nearholmer said:

5) at Jackfield, two ground-frames, one at each end of the loop, each with two levers, one point, one FPL;

6) signs outside the loops, requiring incoming trains to stop, whistle, and wait until called forward from the platform;

7) guard of train then to go to station, set the required route (loop-siding or platform) if necessary, and call the train forward;

 

This raises some questions to me:

 

Seemingly the stop signs outside the loops would substitute the Home signals. Can anyone provide a photo of such a sign?

 

Calling the train forward could have been done by the guard with flags, arm or lamp waving as mentioned elsewhere (#4, Nearholmer).

 

Starting of trains: I think starting signals should have been obligatory in the 1940s as the train enters a new block. And in 1940 it’s very likely that the station was manned so a lever frame at the platform is an economic solution. This combination – 2 ground frames + 1 lever frame at the platform could be found i. e. at the Culm Valley at Uffculme. But maybe someone knows of a station where two sections ended that came along without starters?

 

Andreas

Starting signals were only obligatory if some sort of token system was in use.  Arguably that could also be said to be the case if Staff & Ticket working was used.

[Nearholmer]

I skived-off for a few minutes from my allotted domestic tasks, and had a look in books about the W&LLR. I now know more, but am not sure I'm any wiser!

 

Initially, W&LLR was "one engine in steam", with a single train staff, incorporating a key to release the various ground frames along the way.

 

In 1907 they created a passing place at Castle Caerinion, with a signal-box, and home and distant signals in each direction, but no starters! And, they seem to have retained the ground frames there too, and one book says that the points could be worked by either the GF or the 'box, which seems a bit hard to believe. The box had 9 levers + 1 spare, which fits with points and FPLs at each end of the loop, four signals, and one siding point.

 

The system of working is described as "train staff and ticket by telephone", and the Inspecting Officer seems to have been a bit foxed by the absence of block-telegraph, but, after pondering, he decided it was safe enough.

 

And, when they didn't need two trains in service, they reverted to the previous OES, with one staff for the whole line, locking the new staff away in a safe place. The signals were eventually removed, but whether the line could still be operated as two sections after that, I can't work-out, and after the passenger service was withdrawn it didn't matter.

 

Andreas - I will get back to you about the signs after further reading. I'm beginning to think that, at unstaffed passing places, worked by "staff and telephone", it was acceptable to have neither signs nor signals - just "nominated stopping places".

 

Kevin

 

PS: I've found some chaps in another forum discussing the exact same stations, and they have diagrams, which I've borrowed - I don't think they will mind.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Nearholmer

[Grovenor]

Certainly starter signals at an unstaffed passing place would not perform any useful function, hand signals would be fine, home signals would allow the guard ofthe first train to arrive to allow the second one to run in with a bit less delay, but still seems a bit OTT for this type of line, a handsignal would do the job.

Regards

[RailWest]

>>>This combination – 2 ground frames + 1 lever frame at the platform could be found i. e. at the Culm Valley at Uffculme.....

 

AFAIK there was just the one stop signal at Uffculme, in the Down direction, which IMHO was provided because of poor early sighting of the level-crossing in that direction, so I'm not sure that is a relevant example. In contrast the Lynton & Barnstaple, which was a 'proper' railway with its own Act of Parliament rather than 'Light', was built without starting signals at the intermediate station passing-loops, yet was required with electric train tablet working from the start! Just proving that there is probably an example for everything, somewhere.....:-)

[Donw]

The provision of home signals is more important than starters. A train approaching at even a low speed like 15mph needs a bit of warning to stop by the time the driver could see the signalman or whoever waving a flag it would be a bit late. On the other hand a starting signal can safely be given by the signalman. The main issue with a starting signal would be the use of a ticket. Until the train using the ticket is safely out of the way the following train with the staff cannot safely depart (goods permissive working excepted) so reporting of arrival is needed.

One of the interesting bits of modern working is on the Dean forest where a train approaching Lydney junction stops at St Mary's halt and a crew members presses a button of a switch mounted on the fence to operate the barriers on the bypass. Leaving the button is in the box and operated by the bobby. It is most satisfying to press the button and know the traffic will have to stop. Was there anything like this in the old days.

Don

[Simond]

the VoR certainly has a type of staff that unlocks the lever frames, but I regret I do not know the details of the staff/staves, or the means of using it/them.  I went on a day with single-engine-in-steam.

 

When I volunteered on the FR (long time ago!) they used staffs for each single line section.  I assume they still do.

 

HTH

Simon

[Nearholmer]

DonW

 

There were a few railways that ran across airport runways ........

 

Another good modern example is on the Stoomtram Hoorn-Medemblik in the Netherlands, which is a "light railway", rather than an urban tramway. It crosses a huge dual-carriageway, and all the traffic stops to let an antique steam train puff across.

 

When we went on it, the stop at the road was lengthened by the local Women's Institute outing, which consisted of what seemed like hundreds of women with bicycles. All the bikes had to be woman-handled up into the train, while the traffic was waiting!

 

Kevin

[DLT]

Interesting thread, very nice looking layout.

All the best, Dave.

[AndiMax]

Fully agree with Grovenor & RaiWest. Home signals seem more important than starters. Letting trains off into a section can be provided by flags etc. (manned stations) or via telephone by a central operator communicating with the train guard. In fact many German Nebenbahnen (branchlines) had neither but "Trapeztafeln" a sign signalling the point were to stop prior to the station "Home") and a H-Tafel (stop sign) at the platform or in the loop to indicate the exact stopping position within yard limits.  

[RailWest]

One other factor to consider about Home signals is that, subject of course to there being the necessary interlocking and detection - one can't always assume such things (eg Ashburton!), they would provide assurance that the facing point ahead was set and locked for the correct road. If there was no Starting signal, and a train tried to leave the loop when the road was not properly set, then the resulting accident might be less dramatic than with a mis-set facing point!