Light Railway operations / signalling ? help required

[RailWest]

>>>The one on the Dean Forest railway has gates but no signals so someone has to open the gates across the road....

 

I can't recall now the precise details at Lydney Town, but it was 'usual' for level-crossing gates to have a red target and/or lamp which faced along the track when the gates were across the rails. These served as 'stop' signals.

 

The Abbotsbury Branch, when first opened, had three manned signal-boxes (and block instruments IIRC), yet was only a single OES section, so one can not assume too much by the presence (or absence) of signals. Has anyone perhaps got  WTT or similar for the area with details of the block working on the line?

[AndiMax]

>>>I checked all my books on light railways and branchlines and couldn’t find any lockbars installed......

 

Then, with respect, I think you need to augment your library :-)

 

>>>So it seemed – like Chris wrote - to be more common to use 2 levers: 1 for point + trap and 1 for FPL....

 

Errr...the number of levers used is unrelated to whether lock-bars existed or not, but simply whether the FPLs were 'economic' or not.

 

Noting your latest proposals, whilst appreciating that - as always - there are exceptions to such things (eg Ashburton again), I would suggest that that the two signals should be worked from the same GF. You might like to follow the Callington example - work both signals from the GF by the platform (make it 4 levers), with a key from that GF being used to unlock the other GF. That then gives you interlocking between the two signals and all the points.

 

Chris,

 

I rechecked some books and could spot lockingbars on branchlines i. e. at Highworth, Brynamman West and Nantymoel (GWR), Greenwich Park (LC&DRy) and Smallbrook Junction (SR). Well, I thought they are easier to spot than they actually are and I assume most of the locking bars simply are out of sight from the typical standpoint of a photographer.

 

But anyhow the situation at Smallbrook Junction is very similar to the situation at Blodwell Junction on the Tanat Vally Light Railway and I'm almost certain that there (TV) were no locking bars. So may be Light Railways were not instructed to use this security item or came around them? What do you think?

 

Most of the FPLs I've spoted are of or similar to the "Sri Lanka type". The only 'economic FPL' I've found is a construction that drives the locking device directly and the switch rod via an "Escapement Crank" giving the locking device way to unlock before the switch blades are actually moved:

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=721&forum_id=1

25th message

 

I've also seen some boxes sitting at the axle of the ultimate crank driving the switch rod which could be locking devices but I'm not sure about that. Do you know other economic FPLs? I'm especially interested in pictures or drawings.

 

Andreas

[Nearholmer]

RailWest

 

I should think a WTT for the EKLR in passenger days would be rare as hen's teeth, because BR withdrew the passenger service within months of becoming the delighted owners of it, and the goods service withered back to be only as far as Eyethorne and Tilmanstone colliery within about two years. I doubt whether the full line even made it into a sectional appendix.

 

There was an article by Peter Handford in "Steam Railway" in 2007, giving a first hand account of a ride over the line in 1944, and when talking about Canterbury Road he says : "there was no evidence as to train working, but it appeared, at any rate over the Eastry-Wingham section, to be on the one-engine-in-steam principle".". The two books on the EKLR that I have are very unhelpful when it comes to signalling - one says that most of the signals were out of use by c1935, but there are photos from later dates that show some still in-situ, and apparently still in use (although one blew down in a gale, and was not re-erected!).

 

Anyway, I fear I might have hijacked Andreas's thread. Apologies, Sir.

 

Kevin

[flyingsignalman]

I've been looking at the Oakwood Press book, "The Lauder Light Railway" which has the report by Major Pringle of his inspection of the new line, date June 31 1901. A couple of his comments may be of interest.

 

First regarding the intermediate station of Oxton.

"At 6 miles 40 chains. There is a loop for passing trains here and it is a tablet station. There is a siding connection facing down trains, which is locked by the (Fountainhall/Oxton) tablet, and which contains a single lever. There are facing points at each end of the loop. These points are fitted with Annett's serrated bar lock, and have a rod detector on the Home signal. These points are thrown over by a train passing over them in a trailing direction, but these have to be replaced by hand before the Home signal can be pulled off. There is a single lever in each ground frame.

 

"The signals, of which there 3, viz, a Down Home and an Up Distant and Up Home, worked from a ground frame on the platform containing 3 levers, properly interlocked.

 

 

Regarding the terminal station of Lauder.

"This is the terminus and a tablet station. There is a single platform line with a larger shelter. There is a run round loop, an engine shed line, and two goods sidings. There is not a turntable.

 

"There are three sets of points in the passenger line, each of which is controlled by a ground frame with a single lever working Edward's Economical lock and bar. Each ground frame is locked by the (Oxton-Lauder) tablet. A ground frame on the platform containing a single lever working the Down Home signal, which is detected at both sets of facing points.

 

"I might add here that the ground frame controlling the points at the dead end of the platform is scarcely necessary, and if the Company desire these points and the trap on the siding might be worked by hand with a balance weight lever, and the ground frame removed.

 

"There is no starting signal, and the reference to signals in the Schedule to the Order is possibly misleading. At the terminal station a starting signal is, in the view or the Inspecting Officer, necessary, unless at such a station the Company undertake theat there shall never be more than one enine in steam. In this case such an undertaking would not be consistent with the use of Tyer's Tablet, which is the method of working proposed, and I, therefore, make a requirement that the Company should erect a Starting Signal interlocked with the Home Signal. This might be possibly be done by converting the single lever which works the 'Home' signal into a 'push and pull' lever.

Edited October 10, 2015 by flyingsignalman

[The Stationmaster]

>>>The one on the Dean Forest railway has gates but no signals so someone has to open the gates across the road....

 

I can't recall now the precise details at Lydney Town, but it was 'usual' for level-crossing gates to have a red target and/or lamp which faced along the track when the gates were across the rails. These served as 'stop' signals.

 

The Abbotsbury Branch, when first opened, had three manned signal-boxes (and block instruments IIRC), yet was only a single OES section, so one can not assume too much by the presence (or absence) of signals. Has anyone perhaps got  WTT or similar for the area with details of the block working on the line?

Alas the earliest information I have in a Service Timetable is for 1892 - which shows it as single line only one engine in steam (or two coupled together)  allowed.  Worked by Train Staff, shape - square, colour - red.  The 1917 Service TT simply refers to it as Single Line Worked by Train Staff (shape & colour not quoted), only one engine in steam (or two coupled) allowed.  

 

There is  a reference in the 1892 STT to steep gradients and Special Instructions with which Guards must make themselves familiar.

[Donw]

As the crossing at Lydney is still in use by the preserved line a Google Street view shows two gates (which overlap) each side to allow for the wide road. It can be 'hairy' opening the gates when drivers try to race to get across first.

Don

[RailWest]

>>>It can be 'hairy' opening the gates when drivers try to race to get across first....

By 'drivers' I assume you mean car rather than locomotive ! :-):-)

[RailWest]

>>>These points are fitted with Annett's serrated bar lock, and have a rod detector on the Home signal. These points are thrown over by a train passing over them in a trailing direct, but these have to be replaced by hand before the Home signal can be pulled off......

That sounds to me like the Annett's design illustrated in Fig 221B of Raynar Wilson's "Mechanical Railway Signalling" (reprinted 2nd edition)and reputedly designed for the Basingstoke & Alton Light Railway (including locking bar <g>), tho' I have never found a picture of an actual example of that design so far. This would be roughly the same period as the Oxton installation. I wonder how extensively it may have been used in the UK?

I have never heard of "Edward's Economical lock and bar" before though, and I wonder why they would use a different style of economic FPL at different stations?

[Grovenor]

 

 

I have never heard of "Edward's Economical lock and bar" before though, and I wonder why they would use a different style of economic FPL at different stations

Because they wanted the trailable feature for the passing loop but not at the terminus.

Regards

[AndiMax]

Both C+L and MSE do some parts for the rodding  etc. C+L seem to do the greatest range not tried them yet.  For Lever frames MSE do a Saxby and Farmer 4 lever cosmetic frame. Most of the frame s available are oversize ones intended to be operational the Scalefour one seems to be highly rated. I cannot remember how you intend to operate the turnouts. I am assuming the rodding will be cosmetic and non working. It would be difficult to use scale size rodding as rigidity does not scale well as it is a factor of the diameter squared.

Don

Don

 

Rodding etc. will be cosmetic. I operate each turnout manually by a separate underground pushrod that also drives an electic switch. The MSE lever frames are looking good judging from photos.

 

Andreas

[Donw]

>>>It can be 'hairy' opening the gates when drivers try to race to get across first....

 

By 'drivers' I assume you mean car rather than locomotive ! :-):-)

I did but some Engine Drivers may get a little impatient

Actually it is quite interesting seeing how these things are done. The Branch Experience day includes the crossing work as well as a turn in the box at Lydney, firing and driving the loco.

Don

[hartleymartin]

Just asking a question relevant to this discussion:

 

Let's say that I am modelling a fairly basic single-line terminus station - run around loop with a few sidings, goods shed, platform, etc - the sort of signalling that would be required for such built under the auspices of the Light Railways Act, the signalling required would be a starter signal at or near the yard throat, and a signal a bit further up the line for trains coming into the station? Since the latter is not part of the scene, it can probably be safely omitted I would think.

[The Stationmaster]

Just asking a question relevant to this discussion:

 

Let's say that I am modelling a fairly basic single-line terminus station - run around loop with a few sidings, goods shed, platform, etc - the sort of signalling that would be required for such built under the auspices of the Light Railways Act, the signalling required would be a starter signal at or near the yard throat, and a signal a bit further up the line for trains coming into the station? Since the latter is not part of the scene, it can probably be safely omitted I would think.

Ideally the Home Signal (i.e. for arriving trains) should be more or less at the toe of the first facing point that would be reached by an arriving train.  Observation of photos etc seems to indicate that the Starting Signal could be almost anywhere

[Nearholmer]

Put 'em both on the same post.

 

Go on; go on; go on; go on; go on ............ Aw, well .......... Don't then.

 

Kevin

[AndiMax]

Martin,

 

there even is a third possibility: the Bishop's Castle  had a so called station signal that was at the very end of the line just in front of the loco shed and was quite tall. A train had to stop clear of the station limits, only entering when the signal was lowered. The only thing I don't know is, wether the signal was also lowered in a start situation. But maybe somebody else know's?

 

@all:

 

By the way I'm waiting for my signal kits and rodding parts. As soon as I've installed them I'll let you know.

 

Andreas

[Donw]

Just asking a question relevant to this discussion:

 

Let's say that I am modelling a fairly basic single-line terminus station - run around loop with a few sidings, goods shed, platform, etc - the sort of signalling that would be required for such built under the auspices of the Light Railways Act, the signalling required would be a starter signal at or near the yard throat, and a signal a bit further up the line for trains coming into the station? Since the latter is not part of the scene, it can probably be safely omitted I would think.

 

I would take issue with omitting the signal. True it would be off scene and if all you wanted to do was create the look that would be fine. However if you were interested in operating it realistically you would really need to pull off the Home signal. So I would suggest you have the lever and use it. Since it is there you could use to operate some kind of indicator in the fiddleyard so an operator in there would know the station was ready to receive the train. Of course on a compressed model you may be entering the fiddle yard during shunt moves. The indicator then becomes more usual as the home going off would show a train was wanted the FY operator removes the spare road used for shunting and replaces it with the one containing the train.

 

Don

[RailWest]

I would agree with Donw regarding the Home signal.

 

On a more general point, I do feel that one has to distinguish between what one may politely call the more eccentric Light Railways (eg the likes of the Bishops Castle etc), where just about anything anywhere seemed to suffice for signalling purposes, and those which were in effect a simplified version of 'normal' railway signalling (eg the Callington line, the ND&CJLR, the Lyme Regis branch etc etc). In the case of the latter, then - whilst noting the comments from Stationmaster in post No 88 - I would suggest that the equivalent philosophy should be applied to the Starting signal as to the Home, namely that it should be more-or-less at the toe of the first facing point encountered by a passenger train leaving the platform.

[Donw]

Further to my comment above. If you don't want any signals at all, the best way is to operate one engine in steam. No need to have a home or starting signal as you know no other engine will be on the line (ideally by possession of the staff). Oddly enough few modellers wish to accept that restriction so there has to be some way of deciding who can be on the line.

Don

[Nearholmer]

Gents

 

"Station signals" were, I think, quite a common device in the earlier years of railways,before things settled down to the "1889 pattern", so maybe those light railways that used them were simply repeating archaic practice.

 

Herewith "Lordship Lane Station" by Camille Pissarro, wherein is a LCDR station signal.

 

Kevin

[flyingsignalman]

I don't think the Bishops Castle Railway was repeating archaic practice but was signalled, when it opened, to the then "current standard". As the railway never developed as hoped, the equipment never needed replacing to a later "current standard".

 

(a bit like today's electrical regulations! )

[AndiMax]

Some 7mm parts arrived and I’ve finished the ground frame close to the station platform. I decided to use two separate levers for the point and it’s FPL with the two cranks sitting on one axle - a solution I've seen on a prototype picture. The starter signal will be located close to the ground frame (see mock up in the picture).

 

While waiting for the rodding parts I sheeted the station building and added an urinal / ladies WC in Tanat Valley style.

 

More to come…

 

Andreas

[RailWest]

Looking nice :-)

 

One small point (excuse the pun) - if you are not having 'economic' FPLs, then I would suggest that it is likely that the FPL would bolt the point only for the main line, ie the one that carries the passenger traffic. In other words, just a 1-hole stretcher bar for the lock plunger.

 

In that case, on the assumption that the point lever would be normal when the point was set for the main line, then you would need to consider whether the FPL stood normally 'in' or 'out'. If the former, then the FPL lever would be pulled to unlock the point, whereas in the latter case it would be pulled to lock the point normal, so both FPL and point levers would not be reversed at the same time.

[AndiMax]

Chris

 

Taking the picture I did not think too much about the position of the levers but this issue is interesting.

 

By flipping the cranks while installing the rodding it is possible to relate any lever position to any direction setting of a point or any position of a signal arm.

 

The “normal” direction of a point is the direction it is set when the lever frame is not released. In a track diagram like the one of Callington (http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/railco/sr/cal-boxes.html#CALL) this “unreleased point setting” (what’s the correct wording here?) is clearly shown as running through line.

 

My question now is what would be the “normal position” of the levers? Is all rodding designed in a way that when not released all levers are in the same position, i. e. to the front? And if so: which position (front or pulled) would be the normal one?

 

Andreas

[Simond]

Andi,

 

There are RMWebbers far better qualified to reply than I, but AFAIK, all the levers should be at the far side of the frame from the signalman, with the exception of any FPL (blue) levers. I would assume this would be true for ground frames as well as signal boxes.

 

What I've no knowledge of is the "economical" FPL.

 

Hopefully if I'm wrong someone will correct me!

 

Best

Simon

[28XX]

When the levers are "back in the frame" ie away from the signalman, they are in their normal position. For points this is straight along the running lines, or in a direction chosen to minimise the possibility of a collision in the event of a runaway.

For signals, normal is "on", "danger", or in the case of distants, caution.

The exception is facing point locks which are unlocked when back in the frame and locked when pulled. I think this is to minimise damage in the case of a trail-through runaway.

Edited November 20, 2015 by 28XX