45 ton Ransomes Crane

[Butler Henderson]

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 19:42, craneman said:

Some slightly odd weathering on that (eg the slewing ring would always be black/steely and shine) but it looks good. The Gorton gang however would not appreciate the grime, 122 was always bulled up (see http://www.bdca.org.uk/gallery/index.php/Ransomes-and-Rapier/ADRR95215-Album/scan0001).

Comparing to a image of the crane fresh from the paint shop is not necessarily  a daily accurate portrayal; I would expect after an extent of use and before any cleaning took place it could well have looked like, or worse, than the relatively light weathering which if anything enhances the detailing of the model,

[craneman]

My comments were aimed not so much at the presence of grime - inevitable however house-proud the gang - as at the location of the grime, which suggests something of a failure to appreciate the engineering involved.

 

I imagine that TMC's weathering artists, who I think do an excellent job, have probably never seen a well-used steam crane. Few people have.

[G-BOAF]

Finally had the crane out and 'played' with my BR Black crane

Positives

First impressions - WOW

Love the detail and detail cameos like the load indicator and the jib lamp.

It feels relatively robust and well buit (although the jib runner jib support was loose in box)

Decoration is generally excellent and very fine.

Runs well

Gears looks brilliant.

Very inteligently designed in terms of keys and operating system.

Cyinders look lovely in action.

 

 

The negatives

Yes did have a derailment through second radius reverse curves as I pushed the crane through by hand. I SUSPECT that the brake pipe detail on the crane is catching on the jib runner.

One of my jib threads is frayed/bumpy in one area - this is not a great start for a moving part, and will be going back for exchange.

The RHS lettering on the cab is lightly of horizontal - a real shame. The cab/boiler outer sheeting is a seperate part, so I wonder if Bachmann might fix this.

The crane body is rather loos on the chassis - it rocks back and forward, and the body certainly leans when the jib is anything other than fully up or fully supported on the jib runner. The rocking is similar to a bogie on a coach underframe, but obviously much more visible. I wonder if it could be packed somehow.

[MG 7305]

1 minute ago, G-BOAF said:

The crane body is rather loos on the chassis - it rocks back and forward, and the body certainly leans when the jib is anything other than fully up or fully supported on the jib runner. The rocking is similar to a bogie on a coach underframe, but obviously much more visible. I wonder if it could be packed somehow.

 

I put a washer under the head of the screw holding the crane body to the vehicle chassis and this fixed the problem.  Make sure the washer is no wider than the screw head and the crane rotates freely when you tighten up.  Getting the screw in and out is a bit fiddly but it fixed the problem for me.

 

Best regards

 

Julian

[craneman]

This is actually a periodic adjustment required on the prototype too, where it is rather more difficult to carry out.

 

There is actually a very large nut at the top of the centrepost, deep down under the gears, completely obscured by the bevel gear at the top of the travel spear shaft and about as inaccessible as it is possible to be, which must be tightened to take up any slop in the roller path. The nut is circular and about a foot in diameter, with two barring holes drilled in it. The only way to tighten it is to fit a bar into a barring hole, then slew the superstructure till it contacts the bar, then slew inch by inch to turn the nut the required amount. It requires enormous finesse on the controls not to end up with a bent bar and overtight nut. The crane must also be perfectly balanced on the roller path at the time.

 

Some tasks are really much easier in 4mm/ft. !

[jimwal]

I have the BR black version and yes, an excellent model. Many thanks go to those who assisted Bachmann in the production of these cranes, with very insignificant compromises in my opinion.

 

The job now is one of research and production of appropriate riding/mess/tool/equipment/packing vehicles to accompany it. 

I will be using Ratio Midland and LNWR coaches for the time being in the absence of later versions that would be better for the 1950ish to 1960ish timeframe.

[Enterprisingwestern]

11 hours ago, craneman said:

It requires enormous finesse on the controls not to end up with a bent bar and overtight nut. 

 

 

My exact problem after 8 or 9 pints!

 

Mike.

[Tony Teague]

On 21/12/2019 at 10:19, Graham_Muz said:

The crane must have been visiting the area for something else but ended up coming to the aid of a B4 at on Canute Road Quay, more pictures and bit of a review can be read here https://grahammuz.com/2019/12/21/the-Bachmann-45t-ransomes-and-rapier-steam-crane-arrives-on-the-quay/

 

 

 

 

Nice review Graham - and having taken delivery of mine, I wholeheartedly endorse what you say.

 

Question - have you done any research as to what should accompany it in a suitable SR breakdown train - I am particularly interested in 1940 - 48?

 

I can only find a small number of images of these that show the train around it, and most are from the BR period. Mike King's "Southern Vans & Coaches in Colour" [Noodle Books] has two pictures showing pre-grouping coaches converted for use in breakdown trains, but even these were not transferred to Departmental Stock until 1950 and 1953 respectively, so I imagine we have got to be talking about very old, perhaps pre-1900 stock?

 

Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Tony

[Jack P]

15 minutes ago, Tony Teague said:

 

Nice review Graham - and having taken delivery of mine, I wholeheartedly endorse what you say.

 

Question - have you done any research as to what should accompany it in a suitable SR breakdown train - I am particularly interested in 1940 - 48?

 

I can only find a small number of images of these that show the train around it, and most are from the BR period. Mike King's "Southern Vans & Coaches in Colour" [Noodle Books] has two pictures showing pre-grouping coaches converted for use in breakdown trains, but even these were not transferred to Departmental Stock until 1950 and 1953 respectively, so I imagine we have got to be talking about very old, perhaps pre-1900 stock?

 

Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Tony

 

I too am interested in what might be appropriate to run with the crane (circa 1947).

 

Pardon the slightly ignorant question - but for those more well versed in R&R history: Can the SR crane be renumbered to represent any other SR cranes? 

[Tony Teague]

6 minutes ago, Jack P said:

 

I too am interested in what might be appropriate to run with the crane (circa 1947).

 

Pardon the slightly ignorant question - but for those more well versed in R&R history: Can the SR crane be renumbered to represent any other SR cranes? 

 

Jack

According to "Railway Breakdown Cranes" Vol.2 Peter Tatlow, [Noodle] the answer is only one - 1560S; i.e. there were just two, and whether the other had detail variations I do not know.

 

Tony

[craneman]

Correct. 1560S and 1561S were significantly dissimilar to any other SR cranes.

 

DS1580 is the least dissimilar, but even that has significant differences (cylinders, relieving bogies, and tail weight being the most obvious).

Edited December 27, 2019 by craneman

[Jack P]

10 minutes ago, craneman said:

Correct. 1560S and 1561S were significantly dissimilar to any other SR cranes.

 

Pray tell, do you know what sort of differences there were between 1561S and 1506S?

[Tony Cane]

2 hours ago, Jack P said:

 

I too am interested in what might be appropriate to run with the crane (circa 1947).

 

Pardon the slightly ignorant question - but for those more well versed in R&R history: Can the SR crane be renumbered to represent any other SR cranes? 

 

The best reference I have for Departmental stock to go with a SR breakdown crane is Service Stock of the Southern Railway, by Kinder. 

For crane 1560, based at Guildford, there is reference to a ex LSWR 6 wheel passenger brake van SR No 81 being converted for use in the breakdown train in 1935/6.

The Nine Elms crane had ex LBSCR bogie 3Rd brake coaches 3897 and 3911, converted in 1937/38

During WWII Hither Green got ex SECR 3Rd brake 3283, and Redhill got ex LSWR 3Rd brakes 2958 and 2958. All of these presumably bogie vehicles.

In general 4 and 6 wheel vehicles seem to be used prior to WWII and bogie stock after WWII.

[Tony Teague]

36 minutes ago, Tony Cane said:

 

The best reference I have for Departmental stock to go with a SR breakdown crane is Service Stock of the Southern Railway, by Kinder. 

For crane 1560, based at Guildford, there is reference to a ex LSWR 6 wheel passenger brake van SR No 81 being converted for use in the breakdown train in 1935/6.

The Nine Elms crane had ex LBSCR bogie 3Rd brake coaches 3897 and 3911, converted in 1937/38

During WWII Hither Green got ex SECR 3Rd brake 3283, and Redhill got ex LSWR 3Rd brakes 2958 and 2958. All of these presumably bogie vehicles.

In general 4 and 6 wheel vehicles seem to be used prior to WWII and bogie stock after WWII.

 

Thanks Tony, that's very helpful; I have got the Kidner book but for some reason had not looked at it!

Now, as to sourcing suitable models....

 

Tony

[Tony Teague]

1 hour ago, Jack P said:

 

Pray tell, do you know what sort of differences there were between 1561S and 1506S?

 

Assuming you mean 1560S, rather than 1506S - then no differences are recorded by Tatlow, which must be the definitive volume on these things.

It also appears that there were only minor differences between no.1580S (delivered to SR 1945) and this pair - but he does list some.

 

Tony

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I've just converted mine to EM via the Yorkshireman economy expedient of pulling out the existing wheels.

The wagons are on standard pinpoints, no problems there, and the crane is on 3mm by 2mm stepped axles, but by using the existing wheels there isn't a lot of room for axle slop to coax it round corners, I've not got the wherewithal to test it so a swap might be needed. 

Assuming that the model is fitted with the correct wheels, 3' 3" plain disc, does anyone do these as an aftermarket fit? I've trawled the usual suspects and come up empty.

 

Mike.

[craneman]

1560 and 1561 were essentially identical throughout their lives. The only differences that spring to mind are that '61 received Ferodo linings on the slewing clutches whilst '60 did not (not significant in 4mm) and '61 was fitted with a through pipe for air brakes (both were through piped for vac from new). The air pipe was conspicuous during the crane's red era.

 

1580 differed significantly from the two earlier cranes. The most significant differences as far as a model is concerned are:

 

1. The cylinders have outside valve chests with the valves operated by rocking levers from inside the crab (the first six cranes, 4 GW and 2 SR, had inside valve chests). Bachmann has tooled for both but only the LNE cranes have the later arrangement.

 

2. The RBs are completely different since 1580 has the hydraulic loading gear introduced with the MoS cranes that followed the LNE pair. However 1580's RBs had SR axleboxes whilst the MoS cranes, like their predecessors, had GW axleboxes, and as a result the RB solebars on 1580 are unique and very distinctive.

 

3. As mentioned above, all the cranes except 1580 had GWR axleboxes, buffing gear, and draft gear. 1580 used SR components.

 

4. 1580 has BFB (Bulleid-Firth-Brown) wheelsets on the carriage and RBs.

 

5. All the cranes prior to 1580 used a Cochran Hopwood cross-tube boiler designed to take GWR standard fittings. 1580 uses a similar Cochran Hopwood cross-tube boiler, but modified to accept standard industrial fittings. The consequence of this is that the safety valves are in a completely different location which has resulted in the tail weight castings and cab roof being significantly different.

 

There may also be differences in the jib runner, but I cannot off-hand recall.

 

To create an accurate model of 1580 from the Bachmann model would take considerable work.

[Kier Hardy]

41 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I've just converted mine to EM via the Yorkshireman economy expedient of pulling out the existing wheels.

The wagons are on standard pinpoints, no problems there, and the crane is on 3mm by 2mm stepped axles, but by using the existing wheels there isn't a lot of room for axle slop to coax it round corners, I've not got the wherewithal to test it so a swap might be needed. 

Assuming that the model is fitted with the correct wheels, 3' 3" plain disc, does anyone do these as an aftermarket fit? I've trawled the usual suspects and come up empty.

 

Mike.

Pull your finger out and get that layout finished - that should solve that problem.

 

There's been one on Hornsey Road MPD being propelled and dragged around all manner of sidings with just it's existing wheels pulled out. It clunks in a couple of places, but I'm not intending letting it loose on the mainline as I think the top of the jib is out of gauge and will end up a tangled mess deep down in a tunnel somewhere. I think it will just look better in a siding not going very far.

[Jack P]

7 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

Assuming you mean 1560S, rather than 1506S

 

I do indeed, thanks for catching this one!

 

5 hours ago, craneman said:

1560 and 1561 were essentially identical throughout their lives. The only differences that spring to mind are that '61 received Ferodo linings on the slewing clutches whilst '60 did not (not significant in 4mm) and '61 was fitted with a through pipe for air brakes (both were through piped for vac from new). The air pipe was conspicuous during the crane's red era.

 

Excellent - so a simple renumber should be ok? I don't have the Tatlow volume, would someone be able to advise where 1560S was allocated?

Edited December 27, 2019 by Jack P

[Tony Teague]

1560s - fELTHAM 8/40, nINE eLMS 6/46, eASTLEIGH '64 - 4/1/66, hITHER gREEN 11/86, sTEWARTS lANE oou 4/88

[doktorstamp]

I found this on YouTube, which exemplifies some of the differences mentioned above

A Happy New Year to all

 

Nigel

[doktorstamp]

Here we see DS 1580 in action again. Found purely by chance when reloading the side.

 

Quite what he wasn't thinking when choosing to support it on those pallets clearly requires another mindset, I would also surmise that an understanding of physics was seriously lacking.

 

To all have a very good New Year.

 

mfG

 

Nigel

Edited December 29, 2019 by doktorstamp
update

[atom3624]

Nice to see the old crane in action.

 

Highly irregular application of pallets considering the weight of the boiler, and just how poorly aligned ... 

Person 'guiding / Supervising' should have stopped that a lot earlier - outcome was pretty inevitable.

 

Hope the boiler wasn't damaged in the process - CP is a favourite of mine!!

 

Al.

[Pre Grouping fan]

46 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

Nice to see the old crane in action.

 

Highly irregular application of pallets considering the weight of the boiler, and just how poorly aligned ... 

Person 'guiding / Supervising' should have stopped that a lot earlier - outcome was pretty inevitable.

 

Hope the boiler wasn't damaged in the process - CP is a favourite of mine!!

 

Al.

The point of the pallets was to help turn the boiler. Firstly in the video above to start the mobe then once the slings were adjusted a second video here:

Showing turning it over. I think they are mainly there to stop the boiler rubbing/damaging the concrete.

 

Eventually they would be broken up for lighting up so speeds up the process. 

[atom3624]

Thanks.

Looked highly irregular.

 

All explained - except why would they want it reversed?

 

35005 is a favourite Hornby locomotive of mine ...

 

Al.