45 ton Ransomes Crane

[G-BOAF]

Question regarding operation of these cranes in preservation. What do operators, namely NYMR, GCR, MHR and Swanage (when they restored theirs), do regarding equipment and crew vans?

 

Obviously many brakedown train crew and tool coaches in the 1950s-1980s were pre-nationalisation, if not pre-grouping, and if they have survivied into preservation have rightly been targets for restoration to original condition. 

 

So what do preserved crane operators use for this role?

Is it a case of a using any brake coach for crew and van/full brake as equipment carrier, based on what is servicable and spare at the time a job is booked to be carried out?

Or do railways have allocated coaches? If so, what do they comprise?

 

And am I right in thinking for travel any distance a vacuum fitted vehicle would be needed in the formation to help with train braking, as the cranes themselves are only through piped (no vac cylinders)?

Edited February 15, 2021 by G-BOAF

[Gibbo675]

11 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Question regarding operation of these cranes in preservation. What do operators, namely NYMR, GCR, MHR and Swanage (when they restored theirs), do regarding equipment and crew vans?

 

Obviously many brakedown train crew and tool coaches in the 1950s-1980s were pre-nationalisation, if not pre-grouping, and if they have survivied into preservation have rightly been targets for restoration to original condition. 

 

So what do preserved crane operators use for this role?

Is it a case of a using any brake coach for crew and van/full brake as equipment carrier, based on what is servicable and spare at the time a job is booked to be carried out?

Or do railways have allocated coaches? If so, what do they comprise?

 

And am I right in thinking for travel any distance a vacuum fitted vehicle would be needed in the formation to help with train braking, as the cranes themselves are only through piped (no vac cylinders)?

Hi There,

 

My experience of crane work on preserved railways was at the ELR and there were two cranes, a 50ton Craven Brothers and a 75ton Cowans Sheldon. A lot of the packings and wire slings were stowed in the lockers and pockets of the jib runners, there was also a 12 ton ventilated van that was full of extra packings, jacks, slings, chains, hooks and shackles.

When riding to on site work a brake van was used so the entire consist was locomotive, crane, packing van, brake van, anything else would have required shunting out of the way. Occasionally the jib runner was lifted out of the way, sometimes just onto the ground not necessarily onto the track.

 

Gibbo.

[TomE]

22 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

Question regarding operation of these cranes in preservation. What do operators, namely NYMR, GCR, MHR and Swanage (when they restored theirs), do regarding equipment and crew vans?

 

The MHR crane seems to run with a 20T break van in tow more often than not. I have seen it attached to a crimson painted Mk.1 BSK on a couple of occasions at galas also. 

 

Tom.   

[G-BOAF]

Thanks both for replies.

 

More pressingly, one of my magnetic washout plugs won't fit in the hole, or rather it will, but springs out (only just properly playing after my initial inspection of crane last year). I sense the magnet is fitted the wrong way round.

And now over 12 months since purchase.

Am I up a creek without a paddle on this one? Or will Bachmann supply me a new part? (and are they even open right now?)

[Pre Grouping fan]

2 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Thanks both for replies.

 

More pressingly, one of my magnetic washout plugs won't fit in the hole, or rather it will, but springs out (only just properly playing after my initial inspection of crane last year). I sense the magnet is fitted the wrong way round.

And now over 12 months since purchase.

Am I up a creek without a paddle on this one? Or will Bachmann supply me a new part? (and are they even open right now?)

 

Is it the cover with the very fine locating key? The other one has a very prominent key. 

 

I think it was the left one that has the smaller key and I found it was a bit of faff sometimes to get it in though I don't think its fallen out yet on me. 

 

Hope that helps 

[G-BOAF]

7 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

Is it the cover with the very fine locating key? The other one has a very prominent key. 

 

I think it was the left one that has the smaller key and I found it was a bit of faff sometimes to get it in though I don't think its fallen out yet on me. 

 

Hope that helps 

Yes its the one with the small 'tab'.

But its definately the magnet - I can put it in smoothly enough but it litterally jumps out the moment my finger is removed

[Pre Grouping fan]

52 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Yes its the one with the small 'tab'.

But its definately the magnet - I can put it in smoothly enough but it litterally jumps out the moment my finger is removed

Only thing I can think of in that case is the magnet has been put in the wrong way so its opposing the magnet fitted to the crane.

 

I wonder if Bachmann may be able to supply a pair from their service department as they are normally very good. 

[craneman]

On 15/02/2021 at 11:14, G-BOAF said:

Question regarding operation of these cranes in preservation. What do operators, namely NYMR, GCR, MHR and Swanage (when they restored theirs), do regarding equipment and crew vans?

...

 

And am I right in thinking for travel any distance a vacuum fitted vehicle would be needed in the formation to help with train braking, as the cranes themselves are only through piped (no vac cylinders)?

I think you will find that few if any heritage railways have enough breakdown equipment to necessitate a traditional tool van, nor (fortunately) do they tend to have incidents that require the crew to be out for days on end necessitating full mess facilities. More typically an ordinary box van, or something like a Fruit D/PASFRUIT will do the tool van job, and a standard brakevan with a stove will do for a mess van.  There are some preserved tool van still in use, but not a huge number, and some are on lines without cranes. Nowadays the van is as likely to be filled with the tools and parts to support maintain, operate, and service the crane itself, rather than with breakdown tools.

 

Heritage cranes also, generally, are not far from water supplies, so may not need auxiliary water tanks even if a diesel is being used for mobility rather than a steam loco.

 

On the subject of brakes, it is the case that none of the steam-era cranes have anything more than a handbrake, and this must be considered when running in train formation on heritage lines. The majority of preserved cranes fall into the 100- to 120-ton weight range and will be vac TP, and as such the usual rules for running unbraked stock apply. For practical purposes (largely stemming from the fact that few heritage railways have experience running completely unfitted trains and no longer need to do so), cranes will generally be run with either a fitted head or (if TP) a fitted tail. Short movement on the level can safely be done with just a brakevan, of course.

 

The general adequacy or otherwise of British crane brakes has long been a topic of lively debate, but on the whole accidents were few. One of the most celebrated was the runaway of Kingmoor's 50-ton Cowans Sheldon crane RS1001/50 in November '48, when it ran away from Griseburn on the S&C and travelled unattended for 23 miles to Lazonby, where a rising gradient caused it to reverse direction. As far as I am aware this is quite possibly the greatest distance ever travelled by an unattended runaway on Britain's railways. You can read about the incident on the BDCA website, http://bdca.org.uk/stories.html.   

Edited February 16, 2021 by craneman
Spelling, as usual!

[craneman]

I should have noted in my comment above that even in the "good old days" a steam breakdown crane would generally carry on its jib runner enough tackle to operate without its tool vans. If you look at photos of these cranes on planned work (civils, etc) they seldom have the tool vans with them.

 

The essentials for the crane to operate in the steam era (when there was water and coal in abundance carried on the accompanying loco) were packing for the crane, and chain sling, shackles and perhaps a spreader for lifting. Generally the slings, shackles and spreader were carried on the runner anyway, since this was the easiest place to pick them up (with my crane I have a pair of genuine single leg engine lifting chains, each is about ten feet long, with a ring (what would now be called a masterlink) at one end and a frame hook (to fit under the buffer beam or frame of a loco) at the other. Each chain weighs around a ton, and they simply cannot be man-handled - you can pick up a link or two but that is it. They therefore would always have to be carried somewhere where the crane hook can be brought to them, and you can't do that if they are in a van.

 

On the GW, from the time the first 36-tonners arrived, a complete train for dealing with an accident would consist of either a mess van and a tool van, or one of the  62'6" bogie combined vans (which included a guards compartment), and the crane with its jib runner and its weight tender. The former would carry crane tools as well as timber packing for the crane in its lockers (to keep the packing dry), whilst the weight tender would carry the large and heavy stuff, specifically the kentledge for the crane (about 6 tons), the spreader bar (about 1 ton), plus chains, shackles, Warwicking screws, and other loose tackle, as well as any large packing that was carried (remembering that in some places an extreme amount of cribbing might be needed to support the crane).

 

The tool van would carry the tools specifically related to dealing with the accident damage, such as jacks, cutting gear, spanners, saws, drills, rerailing ramps and frogs, lighting, PPE (well, rain gear at least) for the men, that sort of thing, and the mess van or mess compartment would provide catering and resting/sleeping accommodation. The bogie vans also had a supervisor's office compartment.

 

If the crane was off on a Civils job, the vans would be left behind as the crane was self sufficient. If there was a callout where the crane wasn't needed, the van(s) would have everything that was needed.  

 

It is easy to forget how busy the cranes and breakdown vans were in the days of loose-coupled freight and busy railways, far cry from today. At peak, around 1944, there were 125 operational breakdown cranes of 25 tons or greater capacity on the railways of Britain, while by contrast now there is not a single one (there are cranes which can be used for breakdown work, but that is not their primary purpose).

 

In 1970 there were just under half a million freight wagon on the railways, and there were over ten thousand derailments (yes, really, an average of 28 every day of the year)! By 1987 the number of revenue-earning wagons was fewer than 50,000, and there were around 3000 derailments. By the turn of the century the number of derailments had dropped to around 100 per annum. 

 

The nature of operations on a heritage railway make it very unlikely that any kind of major accident or derailment would occur, and if it did it is unlikely that the railway itself would use its own crane to sort out the mess. I suspect that the unfortunate derailment of the GCR's Ivatt not long ago is about as serious as a railway would tackle natively, although theoretically there are some, very few, which could tackle a tandem lift with rail cranes. Anything more major would be contracted out, I suspect.

 

So most of the use for heritage cranes on heritage railways now if engineering and civils work, which never had the same need for the breakdown train as a whole. Probably now the photocharter is the only activity for which a complete train is needed. 

 

For the modeller concerned with accuracy there is no reason why you cannot have the trusty 45-tonner in a train on its own (with a brakevan, of course), it simply suggests that it is off for a civils or engineering job. 

[Gibbo675]

1 hour ago, craneman said:

I should have noted in my comment above that even in the "good old days" a steam breakdown crane would generally carry on its jib runner enough tackle to operate without its tool vans. If you look at photos of these cranes on planned work (civils, etc) they seldom have the tool vans with them.

 

The essentials for the crane to operate in the steam era (when there was water and coal in abundance carried on the accompanying loco) were packing for the crane, and chain sling, shackles and perhaps a spreader for lifting. Generally the slings, shackles and spreader were carried on the runner anyway, since this was the easiest place to pick them up (with my crane I have a pair of genuine single leg engine lifting chains, each is about ten feet long, with a ring (what would now be called a masterlink) at one end and a frame hook (to fit under the buffer beam or frame of a loco) at the other. Each chain weighs around a ton, and they simply cannot be man-handled - you can pick up a link or two but that is it. They therefore would always have to be carried somewhere where the crane hook can be brought to them, and you can't do that if they are in a van.

 

On the GW, from the time the first 36-tonners arrived, a complete train for dealing with an accident would consist of either a mess van and a tool van, or one of the  62'6" bogie combined vans (which included a guards compartment), and the crane with its jib runner and its weight tender. The former would carry crane tools as well as timber packing for the crane in its lockers (to keep the packing dry), whilst the weight tender would carry the large and heavy stuff, specifically the kentledge for the crane (about 6 tons), the spreader bar (about 1 ton), plus chains, shackles, Warwicking screws, and other loose tackle, as well as any large packing that was carried (remembering that in some places an extreme amount of cribbing might be needed to support the crane).

 

The tool van would carry the tools specifically related to dealing with the accident damage, such as jacks, cutting gear, spanners, saws, drills, rerailing ramps and frogs, lighting, PPE (well, rain gear at least) for the men, that sort of thing, and the mess van or mess compartment would provide catering and resting/sleeping accommodation. The bogie vans also had a supervisor's office compartment.

 

If the crane was off on a Civils job, the vans would be left behind as the crane was self sufficient. If there was a callout where the crane wasn't needed, the van(s) would have everything that was needed.  

 

It is easy to forget how busy the cranes and breakdown vans were in the days of loose-coupled freight and busy railways, far cry from today. At peak, around 1944, there were 125 operational breakdown cranes of 25 tons or greater capacity on the railways of Britain, while by contrast now there is not a single one (there are cranes which can be used for breakdown work, but that is not their primary purpose).

 

In 1970 there were just under half a million freight wagon on the railways, and there were over ten thousand derailments (yes, really, an average of 28 every day of the year)! By 1987 the number of revenue-earning wagons was fewer than 50,000, and there were around 3000 derailments. By the turn of the century the number of derailments had dropped to around 100 per annum. 

 

The nature of operations on a heritage railway make it very unlikely that any kind of major accident or derailment would occur, and if it did it is unlikely that the railway itself would use its own crane to sort out the mess. I suspect that the unfortunate derailment of the GCR's Ivatt not long ago is about as serious as a railway would tackle natively, although theoretically there are some, very few, which could tackle a tandem lift with rail cranes. Anything more major would be contracted out, I suspect.

 

So most of the use for heritage cranes on heritage railways now if engineering and civils work, which never had the same need for the breakdown train as a whole. Probably now the photocharter is the only activity for which a complete train is needed. 

 

For the modeller concerned with accuracy there is no reason why you cannot have the trusty 45-tonner in a train on its own (with a brakevan, of course), it simply suggests that it is off for a civils or engineering job. 

Hi Craneman,

 

I have to say most of the work that the cranes at the ELR were employed with was the lifting of boilers on and off frame sets, and frame sets on and off wheels, all done in the locomotive yard. This work was relatively easy as wee knew the size and weight of everything and so could plan and place everything just where were it was required for ease of operation and sighting of riggers.

Every now and again there would be a structure such as the installation of the new water tower at Heywood, however such jobs were rather rare. As you note most of the trips up the line were for photographic charters rather than to do any actual lifiting work.

 

Gibbo.

[MikeParkin65]

22 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

Thanks both for replies.

 

More pressingly, one of my magnetic washout plugs won't fit in the hole, or rather it will, but springs out (only just properly playing after my initial inspection of crane last year). I sense the magnet is fitted the wrong way round.

And now over 12 months since purchase.

Am I up a creek without a paddle on this one? Or will Bachmann supply me a new part? (and are they even open right now?)

Happy to report Bachmann are open - replied to a spares request email for me. Took a little longer than usual but it is half term this week

[phil gollin]

.

 

Craneman,

 

Thanks for the very informative post.   Re. civils work, how were spreader beams, particularly the longer ones transported ?

 

Thanks

 

.

[craneman]

In the same way as any long-ish beam would be transported, on a flat or bolster wagon of suitable length. Generally a  lifting spreader wouldn't be excessively long, since if a long beam or girder was to be lifted a crane would be at either end. The spreaders most commonly associated with breakdown cranes are those to allow a pair of chains to hang on either side of a rail vehicle, like the one supplied with the Bachmann crane. P-way work would often involve the use of a longer bar to allow a track panel to be lifted without excessive deflection, but if you're moving track panels on wagons it is easy enough to include a lifting beam.

 

I suppose the objective answer is that any beam would be moved in the same way as any other object of similar length in the "common carrier" era.

[Pre Grouping fan]

On the Bluebell crane, I seem to remember the spreader beam being stored on the flat section in the centre of the jib runner partly under the jib carrier.

Bearing in mind this crane has been out of service for 2 decades it might just be a useful place to store it so don't know if that's correct for an in service crane. 

[craneman]

I think all the R&R 45-tonners carried the spreader beam on the jib runner, but not always in the same place. It depended on the toolbox configuration and what else was carried.

[Andy Ross]

Just for interest I thought some of you may be interested in the the photos below - taken in the Nigerian State Railway Maintenance depot Lagos, in 2006.

 

[Tony Teague]

15 hours ago, Trams and Locos said:

Just for interest I thought some of you may be interested in the the photos below - taken in the Nigerian State Railway Maintenance depot Lagos, in 2006.

 

 

15 years on, probably just a heap of rust unless some attention has been given!

[Andy Ross]

I suspect you are right - talking to the CME who was taking us round there was no appetite to do anything up. there were far more modern cranes sat in the yard rotting away.

 

 

there were also the odd Steam loco just left to rot as well. 

 

 

I have a lot more photos so if anyone is interested I might start a new topic on the trip.

 

[craneman]

The Lagos crane is one of three 40-ton, 3'6" gauge cranes supplied by Ransomes & Rapier to Order Nos GH7232 (1953), GJ4291 (1956), and GJ6888 (1959). It isn't possible to tell from the photos I have seen of it at Lagos which of the three it is, but the last of the three was supposedly earmarked for preservation so it may be that. It is quite a well-known landmark to the crane fraternity.

 

It is interesting to observe that fifteen years after R&R built their last crane for use on the railways of Britain, they were still building cranes for the rest of the world, cranes which were essentially still the same seminal design as the pioneering GWR crane of 1908.  

  

Incidentally anyone interested in seeing cranes such as these working might want to check out the YouTube channel of  KTMR De Silva, who has posted quite a lot of footage of R&R cranes still working in Sri Lanka. Some of the PPE used by the workers will make those accustomed to UK law squirm, safety flip-flops, for example. Well worth a look.  

Edited March 5, 2021 by craneman
Addition of reference to YouTube channel

[Andy Ross]

I have just had a look on Satellite pictures of the area were I believe the crane was left and it all looks like it has been redeveloped by the Chinese for a new line they are building, so I have no idea what happened to it. Even in normal times I can not see anyone going any ware near this part of the world to find out. I was there for 5 days in 2006 with work and although it was an interesting visit and I am glad I had the opportunity to visit, I was glad to get on the plane home. 

 

I also had a look at the original image and I can not see any readable numbers on the plates on the solebars. 

 

Andy 

[paul 27]

Looking at the new Hattons Genesis Departmental Stock i know these are generic

coaches but were a simular type still around in the 60s in four or six wheel variants.

[MarkSG]

11 hours ago, paul 27 said:

Looking at the new Hattons Genesis Departmental Stock i know these are generic

coaches but were a simular type still around in the 60s in four or six wheel variants.

 

Yes, they were. See, for example, these photos from the 50s and 60s:

 

http://sutherland.davenportstation.org.uk/aaprint/coa.html

[paul 27]

Thanks Mark for the link very interesting photos,  not seen any of these in

breakdown trains of the period unless proven other wise, i think BR mainly

went for bogie stock,  the Hattons coaches do look good though if not

prototypical.

[hmrspaul]

A Bain 6 wheel full brake was in use as a Mess van with a crane in the early 1980s https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmrdepartmentalstock/e1079d097  and survived on BR until late 1980s when it was supposed to be conserved, but apparently was allowed to rot and the frame will be used for a fake - I wonder where Hattons get their ideas from 

QPV DM 395092 - CE Staff & Dormitory coach « Test Trains, Departmental railway stock & Internal Users - departmentals.com

 

Paul

 

[paul 27]

Thanks Paul so there quite plausable then.